Commuting into London
Discussion
My company has asked me to go back to the office at least 1 day per week. It's a 1hr 40 min (each way) journey by train which involves driving to the station at this end, parking the car for the day, 58 mins on the train then a 20 minute walk from Waterloo.
I'm tempted to use the bike (brand new GS1250) but worried about parking it in town. It's 42 miles from here mainly on the A3. Does anyone do a similar commute? Am I mad to consider it? Should I just man up and stay with National Rail? Do NCP allow bikes?
Cheers
GG
Pre COVID, I commuted for 6 years, from Suffolk to the South Bank, by Waterloo. I commuted on the bike from the start of April to the end of October each year and used the train during the winter months. I did have access to reasonably secure parking but my bike was not stolen, even when I had to make site visits elsewhere in London (about once a fortnight) and had to park on the street. Likewise, after 3 years and 55,000 miles I sold my first bike to a friend who is still using it. I think it now has over 75,000 on it.
No reason your GS would not be fine for such a commute, especially as it won't be every day of the week. Just be aware that for longer runs into town, the actual time save vs. the train is not as much as you might expect but you are always guaranteed a seat.
No reason your GS would not be fine for such a commute, especially as it won't be every day of the week. Just be aware that for longer runs into town, the actual time save vs. the train is not as much as you might expect but you are always guaranteed a seat.
Where is the end point, thats the key bit as Sadistic Khant has made it a nightmare once you are in London, I am commuting 42 miles, Reading to Oxford St, its a doddle until you hit the 20mph limits and its just plain painful, worth it for me as the peak return ticket from reading is c£57 !!!
Some NCPs allow bikes free, others don't.
Some NCPs allow bikes free, others don't.
I commute in on a HD Sportster for about 70 miles each way, five days a week throughout the year in whatever weather. For me it works out substantially cheaper than the train in financial terms and time saving terms. If the train was the same price as commuting by bike and a similar time frame I'd probably look at becoming a fair weather biker - but £15 in fuel vs £90 a day on train and a 45min time difference each way makes the bike the only viable option.
It is 100% doable on your bike and from that direction, for me the biggest concerns would be where you need to get to in London and where you would be parking during the day. If I didn't have a fully secure location to park I'd probably get an absolute snotter of a bike but would still commute in as Westminster is (for now at least) pretty easy to get through by bike unlike some of the locations closer to the square mile.
It is 100% doable on your bike and from that direction, for me the biggest concerns would be where you need to get to in London and where you would be parking during the day. If I didn't have a fully secure location to park I'd probably get an absolute snotter of a bike but would still commute in as Westminster is (for now at least) pretty easy to get through by bike unlike some of the locations closer to the square mile.
DirtyHarley said:
I commute in on a HD Sportster for about 70 miles each way, five days a week throughout the year in whatever weather. For me it works out substantially cheaper than the train in financial terms and time saving terms. If the train was the same price as commuting by bike and a similar time frame I'd probably look at becoming a fair weather biker - but £15 in fuel vs £90 a day on train and a 45min time difference each way makes the bike the only viable option.
It is 100% doable on your bike and from that direction, for me the biggest concerns would be where you need to get to in London and where you would be parking during the day. If I didn't have a fully secure location to park I'd probably get an absolute snotter of a bike but would still commute in as Westminster is (for now at least) pretty easy to get through by bike unlike some of the locations closer to the square mile.
While I understand why it's done that way, you're using biker "man maths" there. The cost of commuting on a bike is way more than just the fuel. You also need to cost in tyres, chain/belt consumables, servicing, additional cost of insurance, maintenance and mileage related depreciation. most of those also assume you'd have the same bike if you' didn't do the commute thus ignore part of the depreciation, part of the insurance etc. They also ignore any additional kit you buy just for commuting or the wear and tear on other kit.It is 100% doable on your bike and from that direction, for me the biggest concerns would be where you need to get to in London and where you would be parking during the day. If I didn't have a fully secure location to park I'd probably get an absolute snotter of a bike but would still commute in as Westminster is (for now at least) pretty easy to get through by bike unlike some of the locations closer to the square mile.
When I was totally honest and did the "real" cost calculations the bike worked out only slightly cheaper than the train and when I looked a home to desk time (thus allowed for the time getting geared up and changed back into work clothes at the other end) it was only slightly faster. However, one of the key factors for me was that, on the bike, if I left 5 minutes later then I arrived 5 minutes later, where, with the train, I'd likely have added 20+ minutes to the journey having missed the "ideal" train. I also loved my time on the bike, especially if the weather was pleasant, where the train could be horrific, especially if there were cancellations. I think the longest journey on a bike, delayed by hold ups, took me about 40 minutes more than normal, where train delays added as much as 4 hours.
black-k1 said:
While I understand why it's done that way, you're using biker "man maths" there. The cost of commuting on a bike is way more than just the fuel. You also need to cost in tyres, chain/belt consumables, servicing, additional cost of insurance, maintenance and mileage related depreciation. most of those also assume you'd have the same bike if you' didn't do the commute thus ignore part of the depreciation, part of the insurance etc. They also ignore any additional kit you buy just for commuting or the wear and tear on other kit.
When I was totally honest and did the "real" cost calculations the bike worked out only slightly cheaper than the train and when I looked a home to desk time (thus allowed for the time getting geared up and changed back into work clothes at the other end) it was only slightly faster. However, one of the key factors for me was that, on the bike, if I left 5 minutes later then I arrived 5 minutes later, where, with the train, I'd likely have added 20+ minutes to the journey having missed the "ideal" train. I also loved my time on the bike, especially if the weather was pleasant, where the train could be horrific, especially if there were cancellations. I think the longest journey on a bike, delayed by hold ups, took me about 40 minutes more than normal, where train delays added as much as 4 hours.
Whilst I will certainly agree that I am doing a bit of biker man maths I would still guess that I come out substantially on top by doing so. When I was totally honest and did the "real" cost calculations the bike worked out only slightly cheaper than the train and when I looked a home to desk time (thus allowed for the time getting geared up and changed back into work clothes at the other end) it was only slightly faster. However, one of the key factors for me was that, on the bike, if I left 5 minutes later then I arrived 5 minutes later, where, with the train, I'd likely have added 20+ minutes to the journey having missed the "ideal" train. I also loved my time on the bike, especially if the weather was pleasant, where the train could be horrific, especially if there were cancellations. I think the longest journey on a bike, delayed by hold ups, took me about 40 minutes more than normal, where train delays added as much as 4 hours.
Your comment did however prompt me to have a bit of a think about it, so I thought I'd take a rough estimate at costs etc. - the below also includes any pleasure and non-commuting bits too.
Estimated Bike costs / Time for the year:
Fuel: £3,500
Belt: £0 (I've never had to replace a belt, and there is no lubrication needed)
Oil Changes/Filters etc: £225 (about £45 each time and Ichange every 5K miles so around 5x per year)
Tyres: £700 (generally have them changed twice a year + labour)
General Servicing: £800 (varies dramatically year on year but a conservative estimate based on work over the last two years but I generally do most myself and then get bits done at the same time as I get tyres changed to save on labour costs)
Insurance: £400 (it was around this give or take £20 this year)
Parking: £0 (have never paid for bike parking)
Kit: £200 (generally buy a new lid every 2-3 years)
Depreciation: negligable - HDs retain value even with silly miles plus I intend to keep for quite a few years.
Estimated annual cost: £5825
Estimated commuting time per year: ~650 hours
Then looking at the train costs....
Non high-speed season ticket: £5932
OR
High-speed season ticket +travelcard: £7824
Estimated times:
walking time: 345hrs
+ either
non high-speed: 860hrs
OR
high speed+tube: 620hrs
High speed trains are about every 30mins / non high speeds are about every hour.
So... my general estiamtes/rough workings:
Rough savings by going by bike rather than the slow train:
Money: £107
Time: roughly 555 hours
Rough savings by going by bike rather than the high speed train:
Money: £1999
Time: roughly 315 hours
Like you point out, going by bike has some substantial upsides that don't fit into a simple time/cost analysis: predominantly the flexibility of not having to run to someone elses timetable, door to door transport, and of course the general enjoyment factor. Plus for me, time spent buggering about with trains is time I lose out spending with my kids and other half.
Was quite fun to work that lot out: I will definitely admit that before doing this I didn't quite think my annual costs on the bike were that high! probably £1k or so over what I thought. I hope that helps others too, but if not, it was still a very useful thing for me to sit and think about!
(edited for formatting)
Edited by DirtyHarley on Wednesday 8th September 20:41
DirtyHarley said:
black-k1 said:
While I understand why it's done that way, you're using biker "man maths" there. The cost of commuting on a bike is way more than just the fuel. You also need to cost in tyres, chain/belt consumables, servicing, additional cost of insurance, maintenance and mileage related depreciation. most of those also assume you'd have the same bike if you' didn't do the commute thus ignore part of the depreciation, part of the insurance etc. They also ignore any additional kit you buy just for commuting or the wear and tear on other kit.
When I was totally honest and did the "real" cost calculations the bike worked out only slightly cheaper than the train and when I looked a home to desk time (thus allowed for the time getting geared up and changed back into work clothes at the other end) it was only slightly faster. However, one of the key factors for me was that, on the bike, if I left 5 minutes later then I arrived 5 minutes later, where, with the train, I'd likely have added 20+ minutes to the journey having missed the "ideal" train. I also loved my time on the bike, especially if the weather was pleasant, where the train could be horrific, especially if there were cancellations. I think the longest journey on a bike, delayed by hold ups, took me about 40 minutes more than normal, where train delays added as much as 4 hours.
Whilst I will certainly agree that I am doing a bit of biker man maths I would still guess that I come out substantially on top by doing so. When I was totally honest and did the "real" cost calculations the bike worked out only slightly cheaper than the train and when I looked a home to desk time (thus allowed for the time getting geared up and changed back into work clothes at the other end) it was only slightly faster. However, one of the key factors for me was that, on the bike, if I left 5 minutes later then I arrived 5 minutes later, where, with the train, I'd likely have added 20+ minutes to the journey having missed the "ideal" train. I also loved my time on the bike, especially if the weather was pleasant, where the train could be horrific, especially if there were cancellations. I think the longest journey on a bike, delayed by hold ups, took me about 40 minutes more than normal, where train delays added as much as 4 hours.
Your comment did however prompt me to have a bit of a think about it, so I thought I'd take a rough estimate at costs etc. - the below also includes any pleasure and non-commuting bits too.
Estimated Bike costs / Time for the year:
Fuel: £3,500
Belt: £0 (I've never had to replace a belt, and there is no lubrication needed)
Oil Changes/Filters etc: £225 (about £45 each time and Ichange every 5K miles so around 5x per year)
Tyres: £700 (generally have them changed twice a year + labour)
General Servicing: £800 (varies dramatically year on year but a conservative estimate based on work over the last two years but I generally do most myself and then get bits done at the same time as I get tyres changed to save on labour costs)
Insurance: £400 (it was around this give or take £20 this year)
Parking: £0 (have never paid for bike parking)
Kit: £200 (generally buy a new lid every 2-3 years)
Depreciation: negligable - HDs retain value even with silly miles plus I intend to keep for quite a few years.
Estimated annual cost: £5825
Estimated commuting time per year: ~650 hours
Then looking at the train costs....
Non high-speed season ticket: £5932
OR
High-speed season ticket +travelcard: £7824
Estimated times:
walking time: 345hrs
+ either
non high-speed: 860hrs
OR
high speed+tube: 620hrs
High speed trains are about every 30mins / non high speeds are about every hour.
So... my general estiamtes/rough workings:
Rough savings by going by bike rather than the slow train:
Money: £107
Time: roughly 555 hours
Rough savings by going by bike rather than the high speed train:
Money: £1999
Time: roughly 315 hours
Like you point out, going by bike has some substantial upsides that don't fit into a simple time/cost analysis: predominantly the flexibility of not having to run to someone elses timetable, door to door transport, and of course the general enjoyment factor. Plus for me, time spent buggering about with trains is time I lose out spending with my kids and other half.
Was quite fun to work that lot out: I will definitely admit that before doing this I didn't quite think my annual costs on the bike were that high! probably £1k or so over what I thought. I hope that helps others too, but if not, it was still a very useful thing for me to sit and think about!
(edited for formatting)
Edited by DirtyHarley on Wednesday 8th September 20:41
I remember it surprised me when I did the same buf felt confident I'd done my homework and knew the real answer. I wouldn't want to use a new bike for that because I'd be surprised if it didn't get stolen in London.
In the late 90s I was living in Sutton and took a job in Victoria (SW1). With the walk at each end it took over an hour by train, so when my salvage dealer mate got a stolen/recovered scruffy 1982 Yamaha XJ550 I bought it and used it every day for about 18 months. It was only about 13 miles, took just 40 minutes and meant I could leave whenever I wanted rather than running to the train time-table!
The bike only owed me £300 and only cost me petrol, oil and filter and a chain so it was cheap as chips.
Nobody was going to steal my ratty old bike but a couple of colleagues had their bikes stolen. I believe the scrotes would turn up in a van with a tail-lift and just help themselves!
Thankfully in 2000 my employer relocated to Windsor.
In the late 90s I was living in Sutton and took a job in Victoria (SW1). With the walk at each end it took over an hour by train, so when my salvage dealer mate got a stolen/recovered scruffy 1982 Yamaha XJ550 I bought it and used it every day for about 18 months. It was only about 13 miles, took just 40 minutes and meant I could leave whenever I wanted rather than running to the train time-table!
The bike only owed me £300 and only cost me petrol, oil and filter and a chain so it was cheap as chips.
Nobody was going to steal my ratty old bike but a couple of colleagues had their bikes stolen. I believe the scrotes would turn up in a van with a tail-lift and just help themselves!
Thankfully in 2000 my employer relocated to Windsor.
Exige46 said:
Perhaps need to factor in likelihood of being knocked off by some idiot in a white van. Never bothered me to start with, but maturity, wife, kids, mortgage etc mean its another consideration for me now.
agreed, and thats why a big noisy bike makes sense even if the commute is low speed. More visible, louder, better brakes etcsquirdan said:
Exige46 said:
Perhaps need to factor in likelihood of being knocked off by some idiot in a white van. Never bothered me to start with, but maturity, wife, kids, mortgage etc mean its another consideration for me now.
agreed, and thats why a big noisy bike makes sense even if the commute is low speed. More visible, louder, better brakes etc
t but some choose to.paralla said:
Your bike is too big to effectively filter in London traffic and too fancy to not get stolen.
A cheap, second hand commuter bike addresses both these issues making it far more suitable.
I used to commute on an R1 into Docklands and the city, and absolutely loved it - a great way to start and end the day. Did the sums, swapped for a cheap commuter and never enjoyed it again. Plus less grip and worse brakes never filled me with much confidence. Really depends on the mix of roads, even things like mirror height make a difference in getting through traffic.A cheap, second hand commuter bike addresses both these issues making it far more suitable.
Exige46 said:
I used to commute on an R1 into Docklands and the city, and absolutely loved it - a great way to start and end the day. Did the sums, swapped for a cheap commuter and never enjoyed it again. Plus less grip and worse brakes never filled me with much confidence. Really depends on the mix of roads, even things like mirror height make a difference in getting through traffic.
Mirror height and how they are mounted makes a big difference. Mounted on the bars like they are on his GS is great for filtering, you can wiggle the bars to get the bike mirrors past stopped car/van mirrors. You can't do that with the cylinder heads of a GS1250. Yes it's possible to use a GS 1250 to commute in London but it's not the best tool for the job.I commuted in London for many years on bikes, Vespa 250's are hands down the best tool for the job. Light, short, narrow, bar mounted mirrors, great turning circle, CVT, fast enough to beat traffic and very economical. But these days you can't leave one for an hour without it being stolen.
An R1 would be stolen if you parked it all day at Docklands these days. Times have changed.
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