Visibility/Audibility when you're riding?
Discussion
I think I've been riding about ten years now.
I have never worn fluorescent clothing beyond the odd strip fitted for aesthetics, I've never had a white helmet, I never ride with full beam on. I don't have a loud can or a "Polite" vest. I've had a bike with no lights and a "daylight MOT" advisory, a black one as well. I don't beep my horn or rev my engine "to let people know I'm there" in traffic. I don't ride like a lunatic but I certainly don't ride slowly either.
Despite this, I can count on one hand the number of times people have pulled out in front of me and forced me to swerve/brake. One of those was a sheep as well.
I'm not saying SMIDSY don't happen, they clearly do and it's not acceptable, but I see some blokes dressed up like "plastic pigs" and I'm increasingly forming the opinion that it's more born of their failure to compensate for other road users than their need to be visible or (god forbid) louder?
Or is it just me, am I living some sort of charmed life? Am I the riding god of visibility?
Penny for your thoughts.
I have never worn fluorescent clothing beyond the odd strip fitted for aesthetics, I've never had a white helmet, I never ride with full beam on. I don't have a loud can or a "Polite" vest. I've had a bike with no lights and a "daylight MOT" advisory, a black one as well. I don't beep my horn or rev my engine "to let people know I'm there" in traffic. I don't ride like a lunatic but I certainly don't ride slowly either.
Despite this, I can count on one hand the number of times people have pulled out in front of me and forced me to swerve/brake. One of those was a sheep as well.
I'm not saying SMIDSY don't happen, they clearly do and it's not acceptable, but I see some blokes dressed up like "plastic pigs" and I'm increasingly forming the opinion that it's more born of their failure to compensate for other road users than their need to be visible or (god forbid) louder?
Or is it just me, am I living some sort of charmed life? Am I the riding god of visibility?
Penny for your thoughts.
Have been riding for 40 years. Only time I wore floro was when I did some time instructing. I like dark coloured helmets, never ride with full beam when others are on the road and m exhaust is legal.
I very rarely have anyone do a SMIDSY type maneuver on me and when it does happen, it's times when I am aware that my positioning and forward observation has been poor.
Not having SMIDSY type events is about being seen and that is about being in the right place at the right time while reading the situation far enough ahead
to give enough time to react. Most road users don't want to run you off the road. Most will happily give you extra space if you are considerate to their right to be on the road. The few that want to "cause trouble" either deliberately, or just through lack of concentration, are generally pretty easy to spot.
I very rarely have anyone do a SMIDSY type maneuver on me and when it does happen, it's times when I am aware that my positioning and forward observation has been poor.
Not having SMIDSY type events is about being seen and that is about being in the right place at the right time while reading the situation far enough ahead
to give enough time to react. Most road users don't want to run you off the road. Most will happily give you extra space if you are considerate to their right to be on the road. The few that want to "cause trouble" either deliberately, or just through lack of concentration, are generally pretty easy to spot.
I've found Smidsy incidents pretty rare irrespective of what I'm wearing.
If someone pulls out on you they either
1) Didn't look, 'there's never anyone here at this time'
2) Attempted to look but not in your direction
3) Looked in your direction but didn't see you
4) Saw you but misjudged your speed and distance.
5) Saw you and realised you would have to evade, but pulled out anyway.
High viz only helps with number 3. So not to be disregarded but really isn't significanr.
The 2 I've had in the last 5 years were both type 1. I was certainly wearing high viz for the second one but I'm not sure about the first.
If I'm riding along a motorway when it's gloomy wet then certainly I'll wear high viz over my jacket. On a sunny country lane I suspect greenish yellow day glo is unlikely to help.
If someone pulls out on you they either
1) Didn't look, 'there's never anyone here at this time'
2) Attempted to look but not in your direction
3) Looked in your direction but didn't see you
4) Saw you but misjudged your speed and distance.
5) Saw you and realised you would have to evade, but pulled out anyway.
High viz only helps with number 3. So not to be disregarded but really isn't significanr.
The 2 I've had in the last 5 years were both type 1. I was certainly wearing high viz for the second one but I'm not sure about the first.
If I'm riding along a motorway when it's gloomy wet then certainly I'll wear high viz over my jacket. On a sunny country lane I suspect greenish yellow day glo is unlikely to help.
I do have a white helmet (as I wanted a new one and I wasn't paying 150 quid more for the same helmet with a paint job) and my textiles have yellow/flouro stripes on them but I've never worried about visibility and ride defensively and do all I can to be noticed when there's cross traffic and at junctions.
I also pay attention, most accidents even 'smidsys' can be avoided, but unfortunately a lot of folk should not be allowed out on a motorcycle, I've been riding over 30 years and the standard of the average rider is low, I often follow people and think 'what the f*ck are you doing' with regard to positioning and general ability.
I also pay attention, most accidents even 'smidsys' can be avoided, but unfortunately a lot of folk should not be allowed out on a motorcycle, I've been riding over 30 years and the standard of the average rider is low, I often follow people and think 'what the f*ck are you doing' with regard to positioning and general ability.
Edited by Jazoli on Thursday 26th August 19:04
I always ride with my headlight on and I wear a jacket with KTM orange on
I have had several drivers pull onto my side of the road to overtake parked cars and I've had maybe 10 well onto my side of the road on corners
However I don't think it's that they didn't see me, I think that they think you're a narrow bike and can move over - as I haven't had either happen when I'm in my van and I cover far more miles in it.
By having the IAM training a lot of what would have been near misses (or hits) haven't been of much concern.
I'm sure my loud (ish) exhaust saved me once after an idiot pulled out of his driveway in front of me, I decided to overtake rather than brake hard, to find that he was then turning into his neighbour's drive (no mirror, nor signal)
As he was turning with me on his 3/4 and a foot of road remaining, he stopped - allowing me through which I'm sure is when he heard my bike as it was 4 feet from him.
I have had several drivers pull onto my side of the road to overtake parked cars and I've had maybe 10 well onto my side of the road on corners
However I don't think it's that they didn't see me, I think that they think you're a narrow bike and can move over - as I haven't had either happen when I'm in my van and I cover far more miles in it.
By having the IAM training a lot of what would have been near misses (or hits) haven't been of much concern.
I'm sure my loud (ish) exhaust saved me once after an idiot pulled out of his driveway in front of me, I decided to overtake rather than brake hard, to find that he was then turning into his neighbour's drive (no mirror, nor signal)
As he was turning with me on his 3/4 and a foot of road remaining, he stopped - allowing me through which I'm sure is when he heard my bike as it was 4 feet from him.
KTMsm said:
I always ride with my headlight on and I wear a jacket with KTM orange on
I have had several drivers pull onto my side of the road to overtake parked cars and I've had maybe 10 well onto my side of the road on corners
However I don't think it's that they didn't see me, I think that they think you're a narrow bike and can move over - as I haven't had either happen when I'm in my van and I cover far more miles in it.
By having the IAM training a lot of what would have been near misses (or hits) haven't been of much concern.
I'm sure my loud (ish) exhaust saved me once after an idiot pulled out of his driveway in front of me, I decided to overtake rather than brake hard, to find that he was then turning into his neighbour's drive (no mirror, nor signal)
As he was turning with me on his 3/4 and a foot of road remaining, he stopped - allowing me through which I'm sure is when he heard my bike as it was 4 feet from him.
While, from your description, the other driver was definitely in the wrong, going for the overtake when the only thing you knew for sure was that the driver hadn't seen you is somefhing that experience and/trainging will teach you is not a good idea.I have had several drivers pull onto my side of the road to overtake parked cars and I've had maybe 10 well onto my side of the road on corners
However I don't think it's that they didn't see me, I think that they think you're a narrow bike and can move over - as I haven't had either happen when I'm in my van and I cover far more miles in it.
By having the IAM training a lot of what would have been near misses (or hits) haven't been of much concern.
I'm sure my loud (ish) exhaust saved me once after an idiot pulled out of his driveway in front of me, I decided to overtake rather than brake hard, to find that he was then turning into his neighbour's drive (no mirror, nor signal)
As he was turning with me on his 3/4 and a foot of road remaining, he stopped - allowing me through which I'm sure is when he heard my bike as it was 4 feet from him.
Sounds like I do the same as most posters in the thread - I have a bright helmet, but only because I like them to be jazzy.
If they can't see a bright red bike with a light on, they won't see high viz clothing either imho.
This was reinforced when I did a bike safe course and the coppers said they regularly have people not looking even when they have high viz, Battenburg bikes and blue flashing lights.
If they can't see a bright red bike with a light on, they won't see high viz clothing either imho.
This was reinforced when I did a bike safe course and the coppers said they regularly have people not looking even when they have high viz, Battenburg bikes and blue flashing lights.
I’ve got a book somewhere called The Science of Being Seen which IIRC talks about how hi-vis and bright colours can get lost in the background. I think the main takeaway from the book was that it’s movement that makes you visible, and when you’re approaching a car waiting at a junction you’re effectively moving straight towards it, and so not moving from their point of view. The SMIDSY weave - moving across your lane - makes you much more visible.
I think I was doing this before I read the book and I think it’s something a lot of riders start to do intuitively, even if their motivation is to put space between themselves and the car.
Full license since 1991, the only near smidsy I can think of was a lady wearing glasses with thick sides - I think I would have been completely obscure by the arms of her specs.
Edit: spolling. Also to add I don’t wear hi viz, my riding gear is either black or grey and my bike is 90s-tastic shellsuit purple.
I think I was doing this before I read the book and I think it’s something a lot of riders start to do intuitively, even if their motivation is to put space between themselves and the car.
Full license since 1991, the only near smidsy I can think of was a lady wearing glasses with thick sides - I think I would have been completely obscure by the arms of her specs.
Edit: spolling. Also to add I don’t wear hi viz, my riding gear is either black or grey and my bike is 90s-tastic shellsuit purple.
Edited by underwhelmist on Thursday 26th August 23:08
I thunk some people just like to be victims, over many miles I’ve only had one car pull out in front of me that I hadn’t predicted.
You only have to go to YouTube and see a large number of people who you could argue put themselves intentionally in danger just so they can have a slanging match (mainly cyclists admittedly)
You only have to go to YouTube and see a large number of people who you could argue put themselves intentionally in danger just so they can have a slanging match (mainly cyclists admittedly)
Krikkit said:
If they can't see a bright red bike with a light on,
On a naked bike the 'colour' is almost invisible from the front.Last time I looked, vehicles crossing the path of motorcycles make up a significant portion of KSI incidents so worth thinking about (beyond a yellow vest).
Kawasicki said:
I don’t wear hi vis. I have people pull out in my path occasionally, doesn’t bother me much as I’m sort of expecting it.
Agreed, I've been riding bikes since the late '70s and wear black riding gear, people pull out in front occasionally but I'm generally expecting it (everyone else is an idiot/psyco/incompetent/blind etc.). I've had a few offs in my time but never one due to a SMIDSY.
I dont wear high vis, just jacket and jeans, sometimes black leather and black helmet, sometimes other colours.
modern bikes all have headlights on by default and latest LED running lights are pretty good IMO compared with the old dim orange dip bulbs we used to have.
30 years of road riding and only 1 real incident where a big white van pulled out when alongside me and knocked me sideways. He just didnt check before changing lane. Luckily nothing in the next lane so I was ok, just a bit shaken up, I looked at the driver after and he was oblivious to what he had done, didnt even notice his van had hit my handlebars. Other accidents in my riding career were all single vehicle early on in my experience, my own fault, target fixation etc
Ive done RoSPA Gold a couple of times when in my early 40's starting back after a big car accident trying to get my insurance down
It was really good, I wished I had done the training when I was 20, would have saved me learning by my own experience, but back then you didn't even have the CBT, you just got a 125cc on L plates and learnt by experience.
Some useful stats in this RoSPA doc https://www.rospa.com/rospaweb/docs/advice-service...
modern bikes all have headlights on by default and latest LED running lights are pretty good IMO compared with the old dim orange dip bulbs we used to have.
30 years of road riding and only 1 real incident where a big white van pulled out when alongside me and knocked me sideways. He just didnt check before changing lane. Luckily nothing in the next lane so I was ok, just a bit shaken up, I looked at the driver after and he was oblivious to what he had done, didnt even notice his van had hit my handlebars. Other accidents in my riding career were all single vehicle early on in my experience, my own fault, target fixation etc
Ive done RoSPA Gold a couple of times when in my early 40's starting back after a big car accident trying to get my insurance down
It was really good, I wished I had done the training when I was 20, would have saved me learning by my own experience, but back then you didn't even have the CBT, you just got a 125cc on L plates and learnt by experience.Some useful stats in this RoSPA doc https://www.rospa.com/rospaweb/docs/advice-service...
TheInternet said:
Krikkit said:
If they can't see a bright red bike with a light on,
On a naked bike the 'colour' is almost invisible from the front.Last time I looked, vehicles crossing the path of motorcycles make up a significant portion of KSI incidents so worth thinking about (beyond a yellow vest).
The simple answer isn't that it's not visible, it's that people don't look properly - even if they try, our mish-mash eyes and brain are quite capable of neatly snipping them out.
I wear black/grey kit, no high viz, ride with the dipped beam on and have a road legal aftermarket exhaust.
I did find that with the original exhaust the bike was so quiet the risk was pedestrians stepping out in front of you, not cars pulling out. A road legal exhaust made the difference with no need to be "shouty" (as I sometimes go out before 7am and ride out between mine and my neighbours houses it'd be selfish to make lots of noise).
As far as cars are concerned I find it's more "don't care" rather than "don't see". Recent commuting examples include cars changing lane on roundabouts when I'm next to them and cars moving out to overtake when I'm already overtaking them. They know I'm there as I've normally been following them a while, as I'm not overly aggressive with overtaking, but they just assume you're going to follow them...even when they clearly don't know where they're going. It's partly the volume of traffic that breeds a "follow the leader" mentality and partly really poor road design (which has definitely worsened in the last 20 years in Sussex). I think the poor road design is exacerbated by over reliance on sat-nav, car play etc. that just distracts drivers from what they're supposed to be doing.
I can't recall the last time someone pulled out in front of me, but I do try to be visible to side roads, changing position as required.
I did find that with the original exhaust the bike was so quiet the risk was pedestrians stepping out in front of you, not cars pulling out. A road legal exhaust made the difference with no need to be "shouty" (as I sometimes go out before 7am and ride out between mine and my neighbours houses it'd be selfish to make lots of noise).
As far as cars are concerned I find it's more "don't care" rather than "don't see". Recent commuting examples include cars changing lane on roundabouts when I'm next to them and cars moving out to overtake when I'm already overtaking them. They know I'm there as I've normally been following them a while, as I'm not overly aggressive with overtaking, but they just assume you're going to follow them...even when they clearly don't know where they're going. It's partly the volume of traffic that breeds a "follow the leader" mentality and partly really poor road design (which has definitely worsened in the last 20 years in Sussex). I think the poor road design is exacerbated by over reliance on sat-nav, car play etc. that just distracts drivers from what they're supposed to be doing.
I can't recall the last time someone pulled out in front of me, but I do try to be visible to side roads, changing position as required.
I've been riding 14 years now. 8-9 years I did commuting through london.
Had a few people pull out on me, but it was so few and far between. Most of the time I'm riding in a way that makes me visible to others, making sure my road positioning is correct and also I'm anticipating things. If there's a car at a junction and the road is busy, and if I can I'll roll off and let them out (or if it is very slow moving traffic I'll stop and let them out). easy way to remove the risk of someone pulling out on me. I have a hi-vis vest on as more of a box-ticking exercise in case something does happen, at least I can say to the insurance company I am making every effort Possible. But I've had as many people pull out on me when I've been wearing a hi vis as when I havnt been.
Ride assuming people need a moment to actualy look in your direction to acknowledge you are there, and you'll likely find people will find the moent to check their surroundings and see you are there. being a car driver as well I know all to well you check your mirrors one moment, nothing, then back to waching the traffic ahead, then all of a sudden bike comes past. Car drivers cant be living looking in their mirrors for you so just kep that in mind when filtering.
I keep an eye out for people who are clearly distracted as well, or people who seem like they dont know the area. They can change lanes without warning as they panic a little bit (I get it, driving in a new place can be anxiety-provoking)
Had a few people pull out on me, but it was so few and far between. Most of the time I'm riding in a way that makes me visible to others, making sure my road positioning is correct and also I'm anticipating things. If there's a car at a junction and the road is busy, and if I can I'll roll off and let them out (or if it is very slow moving traffic I'll stop and let them out). easy way to remove the risk of someone pulling out on me. I have a hi-vis vest on as more of a box-ticking exercise in case something does happen, at least I can say to the insurance company I am making every effort Possible. But I've had as many people pull out on me when I've been wearing a hi vis as when I havnt been.
Ride assuming people need a moment to actualy look in your direction to acknowledge you are there, and you'll likely find people will find the moent to check their surroundings and see you are there. being a car driver as well I know all to well you check your mirrors one moment, nothing, then back to waching the traffic ahead, then all of a sudden bike comes past. Car drivers cant be living looking in their mirrors for you so just kep that in mind when filtering.
I keep an eye out for people who are clearly distracted as well, or people who seem like they dont know the area. They can change lanes without warning as they panic a little bit (I get it, driving in a new place can be anxiety-provoking)
Edited by thatdude on Friday 27th August 15:56
I feel that riding a completely black bike, wear all black clothing on a black road isn't helping myself. So I would want to have at least some colour/white on my bike or clothes. When I was commuting I did have a building site style hi viz vest because my first bike was black as were my textiles.
If I were to replace all my kit and bike today I wouldn't go full fluro polite vest but I would get a relatively bright bike and or kit, just to help myself a bit.
If I were to commute through the winter again, I would consider extra lights, florescent clothing etc because it can help and rush hour in busy traffic in the rain can be a bit dicey.
If I were to replace all my kit and bike today I wouldn't go full fluro polite vest but I would get a relatively bright bike and or kit, just to help myself a bit.
If I were to commute through the winter again, I would consider extra lights, florescent clothing etc because it can help and rush hour in busy traffic in the rain can be a bit dicey.
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