Sold a bike that has a major fault, help
Discussion
Hi all, I purchased a motorcycle on Friday that was advertised on Facebook market place, the guy kindly delivered it in his van, I started it up this morning and noticed oil dripping on floor, on closer look at the front on the engine where the bolt goes through the frame and the engine casing is cracked and been fill with Araldite glue and painted over, I’m really not happy, with something this major can I ask for a full refund and he has the bike back?
Edited by snowwolf on Saturday 20th February 14:07
I got done like that buying a GSXR 750Y.
I bought it, transported it home and stuck it in my garage over winter.
A pool of oil was forming under the bike and I found there was a lump out the casing that had been stuck back in with plastic metal.
By the time I noticed it I’d already had it a few months so I just took it that it was my own fault for not checking it more carefully.
Looking at the log book it had had a lot of owners so I suspect that the bike had been sold, the fault found then punted on more than once.
Luckily for me the repair was weldable and a mate with a tig welder did it for a few quid and it was basically as good as new.
I would get the damage checked out and see if it can be welded without warping or damaging the casing. It will all depend on the layout of the engine and location of the damage.
I bought it, transported it home and stuck it in my garage over winter.
A pool of oil was forming under the bike and I found there was a lump out the casing that had been stuck back in with plastic metal.
By the time I noticed it I’d already had it a few months so I just took it that it was my own fault for not checking it more carefully.
Looking at the log book it had had a lot of owners so I suspect that the bike had been sold, the fault found then punted on more than once.
Luckily for me the repair was weldable and a mate with a tig welder did it for a few quid and it was basically as good as new.
I would get the damage checked out and see if it can be welded without warping or damaging the casing. It will all depend on the layout of the engine and location of the damage.
Facebook marketplace and the guy delivered it in his van...
I would suspect that the guy you bought it from probably isn't the guy whose name was on the V5.
Either way, you're pretty stuffed; as is so often mentioned on PH it is caveat emptor in a private sale so you have no legal comeback.
As suggested already, check how bad it is and whether it can easily be repaired (properly) and then consider an engine transplant if you can find one cheap enough.
Alternatively, comprehensive insurance and a box of Swan Vesta fixes most issues...
I would suspect that the guy you bought it from probably isn't the guy whose name was on the V5.
Either way, you're pretty stuffed; as is so often mentioned on PH it is caveat emptor in a private sale so you have no legal comeback.
As suggested already, check how bad it is and whether it can easily be repaired (properly) and then consider an engine transplant if you can find one cheap enough.
Alternatively, comprehensive insurance and a box of Swan Vesta fixes most issues...
I did call the seller but no joy, like you all say, don’t matter how nice and genuine a seller can be, don’t fall for that and go over the bike with a fine tooth comb before parting with hard earned cash, I have now the problem of taking the engine out the bike and getting the casing welded up properly, it will be like new by the time I’ve finished with it, you just got to get on with it and a hard lesson learned
Thanks for all the replies
Thanks for all the replies
Unless you're willing to spend a lot of time and/or money pursuing this, you're f
ked.
First step would be to research the seller's history, try to find evidence that he's buying and selling bikes every week. Many hours of raking through Google cache, unpicking the different IDs and phone numbers he's probably hiding behind. Maybe get a pal to pose as an interested buyer and covertly record a visit to see a bike he's selling. Maybe find his home or premises, and get photos of multiple bikes or workshop facilities. Or pay a PI to follow him for a few days and assemble evidence that he is operating as a trader (and so you have consumer rights).
If you obtain some plausible evidence, then you can apply to the courts for a Norwich Pharmacal Order which would require Facebook to hand over the history of his account(s). They keep huge amounts of data, and this would probably prove he was trading beyond all doubt. Facebook won't seriously defend the NPO application, and the seller has little hope of objecting without compromising himself. If you're feeling really bold, another NPO against his bank would be interesting too.
So then you go off to the county court with your evidence and sue him, asserting that he was acting in capacity of trader and sold you a bike which was unfit for purpose, so you're entitled to refund. But before commencing the claim you have to send him a Letter Before Action setting out your case, and inviting him to settle. For best impact, have this done by a solicitor on letterhead. You have to detail all the evidence you plan to put before the court, and state what damages you're going to ask for. So that might be £XXXX for refund of bike, and £XXXX for the itemised costs incurred during your investigation.
He can pay in full and it's over. He can make a counter-offer and you might accept it. Or he can refuse/ignore the LBA. If you don't have a satisfactory settlement after 14-21 days, you can instigate a formal trial of the claim. The seller could attend the trial and claim it's all a misunderstanding, there's a slim chance he might get away with that. Or he might pay a lawyer to counter-attack by challenging your evidence for admissibility or reliability. That's costly and risky for him though, because the court might order further disclosure.
Most likely he won't turn up and you'll win. The court orders him to pay you £XXXX damages. Congratulations, but now you've got to collect that money. He may disappear or refuse to acknowledge the debt (no mate, that must've been my twin brother, I never sold you a bike). He may offer you derisory installments and then not pay them anyway. Most likely you'll have to pursue formal enforcement - sending bailiffs round or seeking a garnishment order to make his bank or employer cough-up. Then he'll claim to be bankrupt (and might really be). This game can go on for years. You can put it in the hands of lawyers and debt recovery firms, and their fees are added to his debt, but it's rarely straightforward.
Realistically, unless you have lots of time and money, or a burning need for justice, there's no sensible way to pursue this legally. But if it's really important to you, it can be done. I know someone (no, not me) who waged legal war against a double glazing firm for years, going after directors in their personal capacity etc, and he thoroughly enjoyed it. But he was a retired professional with the time, money and interest to grind them down. It was basically a game or hobby for him.
If you're not in that position, then it's probably best to pay for a proper repair and write this off to experience. Or assemble some sturdy mates and visit him to discuss a reasonable solution. Maybe also shop him to HMRC for tax evasion.
ked. First step would be to research the seller's history, try to find evidence that he's buying and selling bikes every week. Many hours of raking through Google cache, unpicking the different IDs and phone numbers he's probably hiding behind. Maybe get a pal to pose as an interested buyer and covertly record a visit to see a bike he's selling. Maybe find his home or premises, and get photos of multiple bikes or workshop facilities. Or pay a PI to follow him for a few days and assemble evidence that he is operating as a trader (and so you have consumer rights).
If you obtain some plausible evidence, then you can apply to the courts for a Norwich Pharmacal Order which would require Facebook to hand over the history of his account(s). They keep huge amounts of data, and this would probably prove he was trading beyond all doubt. Facebook won't seriously defend the NPO application, and the seller has little hope of objecting without compromising himself. If you're feeling really bold, another NPO against his bank would be interesting too.
So then you go off to the county court with your evidence and sue him, asserting that he was acting in capacity of trader and sold you a bike which was unfit for purpose, so you're entitled to refund. But before commencing the claim you have to send him a Letter Before Action setting out your case, and inviting him to settle. For best impact, have this done by a solicitor on letterhead. You have to detail all the evidence you plan to put before the court, and state what damages you're going to ask for. So that might be £XXXX for refund of bike, and £XXXX for the itemised costs incurred during your investigation.
He can pay in full and it's over. He can make a counter-offer and you might accept it. Or he can refuse/ignore the LBA. If you don't have a satisfactory settlement after 14-21 days, you can instigate a formal trial of the claim. The seller could attend the trial and claim it's all a misunderstanding, there's a slim chance he might get away with that. Or he might pay a lawyer to counter-attack by challenging your evidence for admissibility or reliability. That's costly and risky for him though, because the court might order further disclosure.
Most likely he won't turn up and you'll win. The court orders him to pay you £XXXX damages. Congratulations, but now you've got to collect that money. He may disappear or refuse to acknowledge the debt (no mate, that must've been my twin brother, I never sold you a bike). He may offer you derisory installments and then not pay them anyway. Most likely you'll have to pursue formal enforcement - sending bailiffs round or seeking a garnishment order to make his bank or employer cough-up. Then he'll claim to be bankrupt (and might really be). This game can go on for years. You can put it in the hands of lawyers and debt recovery firms, and their fees are added to his debt, but it's rarely straightforward.
Realistically, unless you have lots of time and money, or a burning need for justice, there's no sensible way to pursue this legally. But if it's really important to you, it can be done. I know someone (no, not me) who waged legal war against a double glazing firm for years, going after directors in their personal capacity etc, and he thoroughly enjoyed it. But he was a retired professional with the time, money and interest to grind them down. It was basically a game or hobby for him.
If you're not in that position, then it's probably best to pay for a proper repair and write this off to experience. Or assemble some sturdy mates and visit him to discuss a reasonable solution. Maybe also shop him to HMRC for tax evasion.
snowwolf said:
I did call the seller but no joy, like you all say, don’t matter how nice and genuine a seller can be, don’t fall for that and go over the bike with a fine tooth comb before parting with hard earned cash, I have now the problem of taking the engine out the bike and getting the casing welded up properly, it will be like new by the time I’ve finished with it, you just got to get on with it and a hard lesson learned
Thanks for all the replies
It's a sThanks for all the replies
t thing to happen, but you are making the best of it. A decent welder should be able to fix it - dunno how much case splitting you will need to do.On the bright side - while it's all in bits etc is a good opportunity to get things all minted up, all the other little jobs done etc. Pull your finger out and you will hopefully be good to go when the weather turns.
Good luck.
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