Trade up from E46 M3 t o a CSL?

[batster]

Having attended a recent track day at which various CSL's were strutting their stuff and easing past me in the process , I have started to think about changing my M3 for a CSL. There are loads of new CSLs about and the dealers I have visited are desperate to discount to secure the deal.

Anybody taken the plunge with a CSL or traded up from an M3? It would be my everyday transport as well as a trackday toy, so keen to hear ownership stories ( I already know about issues with Pilot Sport tyres)

[trampas]

Did you read Chris Harris's article in autocar....about M3 v CSL v Modified M3?...worth a look...and not that hard to make your M3 into a csl beater!

[m-five]

The cheapest performance modification you will find is a little bit of professional track instruction.

You'll be faster (not that you're timing), smoother and easier on the car!

[DoctorD]

trampas said:

Did you read Chris Harris's article in autocar....about M3 v CSL v Modified M3?...worth a look...and not that hard to make your M3 into a csl beater!

That article was so far from the truth it was yet another example of shoddy journalism. What makes you think it's that easy to make a CSL beater?

Given the starting point of an M3 the CSL has an engine that is tuned about as far as would be possible for production road vehicle. The high-lift camshafts are as extreme as you could go whilst maintaining tractability, the intake and exhaust system allows for considerably improved gas flow, the exhaust valves are re-shaped and the ECU has been modified to take full advantage of these changes. BMW claim just under 20bhp improvement but a recent rolling road test by one CSL owner found more than 40bhp difference at the wheels when compared with an M3. I'm not suggesting that's necessarily a repeatable performance if taking a wider sample of cars, but it illustrates the point that the CSLs engine is a little bit more advanced than your run of the mill modified lump.

Combine that with a bodyshell that's in many cases more than the 110kg suggested by BMW (one test in Germany showed a 150kg improvement) and might perhaps get the picture.

There have been a couple of 'proper' tests of modified M3s in some of the german magazines such as Sport Auto and they actually tested these modified cars (AC Schnitzer, Digi-Tec) as being SLOWER than the standard M3, whereas the CSL is most comprehensively faster in every sense. When you combine the two qualities of increased power/torque and lower weight you achieve a car that is at least 40bhp/tonne stronger than the standard car - and you can feel that when you drive it.

At a recent trackday at Bedford Autodrome my CSL accelerated side-by-side with a Porsche 996TT and a Lamborghini Gallardo down the main kilometre straight (from 40-150mph) and passed cars such as a Noble M12 GTO and Lotus Esprit V8 - so it's fast, something I was never able to quite say so confidently about my previous E46 M3s.

From a day-to-day usage perspective, personally I don't use mine in that way and would find it too much of a high-octane experience for such ordinary journeys, but it's perfectly capable of doing so and indeed many owners use theirs in that way.

[DoctorD]

batster said:

Anybody taken the plunge with a CSL or traded up from an M3? It would be my everyday transport as well as a trackday toy, so keen to hear ownership stories ( I already know about issues with Pilot Sport tyres)

batster, I traded in an E46 M3 for my CSL and haven't ever regretted it. I've had many Porsche's before it (including 964 RS and 996 GT3) and the CSL is an RS in everything other than name. From a track perspective the CSL is much easier to enjoy driving near the limit, far better communication through the steering, more progressive handling and a much improved 'feel' of the chassis through the seat. The brakes are still crap, so I've upgraded mine with AP 6-pots but now it's the kind of car you can drive hard around a track all day without any fade or detriment and then drive home again. Whereas with the M3 you will be playing 'fight the understeer' all round a track, the CSL is better balanced, will kick it's tail out in a friendly way and reward good smooth driving. Add to that the wonderful noise it makes and it's eagerness to turn-in to the apex and you've got yourself a true track day star.

If you already have an M3 you might be worried about the loss of some toys and gadgets but the CSL driving experience feels so special I never find myself questioning value for money.

Unfortunately I paid £60k for mine, as one of the original allocated buyers, but there are quite a few out there for anything up to £10k less (at the moment). Many of the cars in stock have the wrong spec (which is one of the reasons they're not selling) and I would advise that you don't compromise on getting one with CSL wheels, a/c and a radio. Xenon lights are pretty essential too unless you don't plan on driving at night and while you're at it things like pdc and rain sensor add nothing to the weight but improve safety. I suggest pdc since whilst it may seem like you could do without it the front and rear panels on the CSL are made from Carbon Fibre, tear easily and the front costs over £2500 to replace..

[trampas]

DoctorD...we can agree to disagree on the power issue....but a M3 with well set up fully adjustable schnitzer suspension ,AP brakes all round,electric seats removed and replaced with recaros,and a set of the all important pilot sport cups is very close to the mark...too close to call infact

I can back up the performance figures given on Autocars test.....because i was there.....and it was done with gps ...no rolling road....no chip manufacturers claims....but all three cars over the same surface .

At this point i should say the blue M3 in the test is mine....and i have been over taken by better driven csl's on trackdays ...but then i have also overtaken worse driven csl's
The real point of my project was to make my car feel right for me.....my lap time round bedford was reduced by 4.5 seconds from standard to the finish.....I would say 4 secs of that was down to the tyres and suspension/brake set up....the .5 sec down to the chip and induction system which does make the car pull noticably harder from 6000 onto the red line....just my view...not the gospel....but perhaps a different answer to someones problem ....if a car isn't doing what we want or expect it to do.... perhaps we should look at set up rather than buying something else that we will feel the same way about.

[stuh]

DoctorD said:

At a recent trackday at Bedford Autodrome my CSL accelerated side-by-side with a Porsche 996TT and a Lamborghini Gallardo down the main kilometre straight (from 40-150mph) and passed cars such as a Noble M12 GTO and Lotus Esprit V8 - so it's fast, something I was never able to quite say so confidently about my previous E46 M3s.

DoctorD - Did the Noble driver have his hand brake on

M3 CSL looks good though i must admit. I came from a standard E46 M3 to the Noble and loved the car but found it a bit sluggish.

BTW I'll be at the Autodrome this Saturday if you'll be there again?

[Zod]

I'm tempted to do this too, but with an M5 due next summer and my M3 only 16 months old, I don't really want to take the depreciation hit.

I've driven a CSL and it really is something else.

[DoctorD]

stuh said:

DoctorD - Did the Noble driver have his hand brake on

No stuh, not quite. There was a GTO 3R there also who was quicker down the straight (more so than the 2.5 litre GTO), and similar to the pace of the 996 GT3RS, but he would pull around 2-4 car lengths on the CSL. OK mine has 100 cell cats and a straight through centre pipe, thus is producing a few more ponies than standard but its a pleasant surprise to see that it's competitive with more recognised machines.

I'm next at Bedford on the 24th I think (with RMA again) but next stop is Donnington.

[iguana]

On the CSL note, just interested to know are they all SMG?

[DoctorD]

trampas said:

DoctorD...we can agree to disagree on the power issue....but a M3 with well set up fully adjustable schnitzer suspension ,AP brakes all round,electric seats removed and replaced with recaros,and a set of the all important pilot sport cups is very close to the mark...too close to call infact I can back up the performance figures given on Autocars test.....because i was there.....and it was done with gps ...no rolling road....no chip manufacturers claims....but all three cars over the same surface . At this point i should say the blue M3 in the test is mine....and i have been over taken by better driven csl's on trackdays ...but then i have also overtaken worse driven csl's The real point of my project was to make my car feel right for me.....my lap time round bedford was reduced by 4.5 seconds from standard to the finish.....I would say 4 secs of that was down to the tyres and suspension/brake set up....the .5 sec down to the chip and induction system which does make the car pull noticably harder from 6000 onto the red line....just my view...not the gospel....but perhaps a different answer to someones problem ....if a car isn't doing what we want or expect it to do.... perhaps we should look at set up rather than buying something else that we will feel the same way about.

trampas, I appreciate your point and agree that some choice modifications to the M3 will greatly improve it's performance and driveability. Likewise adapting the car for you whilst perhaps keeping some of the creature comforts may well appeal to some. My point about the various tuners was to illustrate the fact that it's not easy improving on the standard product - and most seem to fail.

I owned 3 E46 M3s before the CSL and covered enough mileage in them to appreciate the difference made by the CSL. Engine performance is improved by a noticeable amount but it's the weight loss combined with improved balance and different set-up that make the biggest difference. If you go underneath a CSL and look you will see virtually every part is uniquely stamped 'CSL' many that BMW have chosen not to shout about but have quietly improved over the standard car.

I find that when people suggest how easy it would be to match the CSL they fail to appreciate the changes that BMW made. When you talk to tuners about modifying the CSL, all suggest that it cannot be done - or at least the economics would be unviable since everything they would normally suggest has already been done. Whilst fitting a fully adjustable suspension would enable it to be dialed in to each track more precisely, the standard set-up is so well balanced that it hardly seems worth the bother. Brakes were lacking and have been sorted (as you have done) and engine performance has been improved with a few exhaust modifications. Beyond that there's really nothing else that is lacking.

Logically with more than 100kg less weight (which I've always found very noticeable in my race cars), a higher lift camshaft, improved alpha-N induction and hence more power, you'd have to agree that the CSL should be noticeably quicker. As with the M3, only more so the CSL is sensitive to run-in procedure and gets better with mileage, so whilst I cannot comment on the car you witnessed my CSL seems to be in the rudest of health!

[trampas]

Yes all csl are smg equipped......and i have to agree with M-FIVE...that the best hop up is to learn how to use what you've already got

[trampas]

DoctorD...don't get me wrong the csl was still on my shopping list even after modding my M3 until i was fortunate enough to get a GT3 RS...my point is that the original thread was that someone was being over taken by CSL's....which i have also had happen ..at rockingham there was a guy blitzing raced prepared porsches.....he obviously knew the car and the track well.Very few people can claim to be able to drive their cars at anywhere near 100%...maybe 80% if we're lucky...so if we take it as read that 340bhp is enough for anyone on most tracks in this country....a well set up car...which the driver feels comfortable with is surely the way to go? ....its just another option....after all you could change to a CSL and although you love yours it might not be right for the next man....expectations differ..as do driving styles etc...the fastest car is not always the fastest car...its often the fastest combination that will win the day.

[DoctorD]

Fully agree with you there trampas, and also what matters is what best suits the driver. There's no such thing as the 'best car' only the best car for someone at a moment in time.

I had my name down on the original list for a GT3RS but wasn't allocated one, then I didn't want to pay the premiums that some people were asking. Do you mind me asking how you got hold of one yourself?

p.s. if you don't already know of it can I recommend the GT3 gang who hang out on www.titanic.co.uk/GT3/



>> Edited by DoctorD on Monday 5th April 20:25

[trampas]

DoctorD...I paid a deposit in may of last year...was led along by my dealer until september when i started making noises about speccing my car....my deposit arrives back in the post..sorry blah blah blah...not even the decencecy to ring me and explain why...just a standard letter asking me if they could sell me any other kind of porsche!!!!!I was so certain of getting a car at this point i'd even purchased the plate for it......so i went down the overs line...paid 7k to get exactly the right specced car...all was going well till the supplying dealer got wind the car was being sold on....so they tried to put the stop on it....after more toing and froing...the deal was done and the car was mine....very miffed at porsche for messing me about when trying to buy the car their way and then messing me about when i tried the only other option available to me......having said all that...for all the aggro...the car was worth every bit of it!

[DoctorD]

trampas, good to hear you finally won through. All the fight was used up for me in getting my CSL (little did I know that there would eventually be a surplus..) that I couldn't face another fight with a manufacturer to get the car I ordered. Well done in getting yours.

One other reason I mentioned the titanic boys is that the considered opinion amongst GT3RS owners is that the standard suspension is too compromised for track use and many have replaced theirs with a JRZ suspension specially set-up by Parr (they guys who run the Cup cars for Porsche GB). You may find that it needs the same solution. I went out in one around Bedfore a couple of weeks ago and it was really unstable under braking, that and a reluctance for the front end to stay planted. The JRZ set-up apparently transforms the car. If you need any info just ask the other RS owners.

Cheers,

>> Edited by DoctorD on Monday 5th April 21:34

[trampas]

DoctorD.....had the car into parrs a few weeks back for the set up...you're right the back end was abit lively under heavy braking......hopefully will have a set of pilot cups on a spare set of rims before the weekend too...which is supposed to help front end grip over the corsas(which i must say i'm a bit disappointed in)......a very capable car all in all....but like most of them just needs that bit of fine tuning to make up for the drivers lack of skill

[batster]

[quote=DoctorD]
[quote=batster]



batster, I traded in an E46 M3 for my CSL and haven't ever regretted it. I've had many Porsche's before it (including 964 RS and 996 GT3) and the CSL is an RS in everything other than name. From a track perspective the CSL is much easier to enjoy driving near the limit, far better communication through the steering, more progressive handling and a much improved 'feel' of the chassis through the seat.

DoctorD

Thanks for the detailed viewpoint - I think we spoke briefly at Bedford on 27 March as I was admiring your black CSL with its AP brakes. I should have asked to be a passenger for a few laps as I may well have been totally sold then on a CSL! Interested in your comment on the GT3 as that is the other car in the equation if I am going to spend c £50-55K on a replacement for my M3. Have always hankered after a 911 and it seems like the Mk1 GT3 is a bit special and obviously it would represent more of a change than me buying a CSL, but have enjoyed my M3 so much that I do feel a loyalty to the brand. I plan to have a drive in both. Having driven the Noble 3R at Bedford, I was massively impressed by that but hated the gearbox and ultimately think its too compromised as an everyday car in London , so have ruled that out.

Decisions, decisions!

[DoctorD]

batster, many of the original Mk1 GT3s were bought by people planning to use them evey day - and then returned to the dealers shortly after when they realised it was a very impractical car. Most of the complaints stemmed from the firm ride and lack of ground clearance if driving over speed bumps or into car parks. It's obviously worse with the Club Sport spec version with the roll cage and recaro fixed buckets but it's important that you drive a GT3 on the kind of roads you use regularly before you make your mind up.

Also the Mk1 GT3 has a more track oriented feel than the softer Mk2 which underlines it's track rather than road focus. Personally I loved it, but after owning more than a dozen Porsches I really never learned to love the 996 shape, nor some of the interior fittings such as the flimsy stalks and 'boiled sweet' buttons. The CSL and Mk1 GT3 in my opinion are identical in straight line performance and similarly exciting. In fact it boils down to which gives you the biggest smile, so drive both and see what you think.

[s3am]

batster said:

Interested in your comment on the GT3 as that is the other car in the equation if I am going to spend c £50-55K on a replacement for my M3. Have always hankered after a 911 and it seems like the Mk1 GT3 is a bit special and obviously it would represent more of a change than me buying a CSL, but have enjoyed my M3 so much that I do feel a loyalty to the brand. I plan to have a drive in both. Having driven the Noble 3R at Bedford, I was massively impressed by that but hated the gearbox and ultimately think its too compromised as an everyday car in London , so have ruled that out. Decisions, decisions!

Batster.
I honestly reckon you'll want the CSL. If practicality is also a consideration (and I quite understand why you should decide against the Noble for everyday use in London) the CSL also provides a real 5 seats, as well as the racer's dynamics. I'm lucky enough to have a 2nd car to take care of the 'everyday' chores. If I didn't I think I would have chosen differently myself.
Also the CSL look impossibly, hilariously good (especially with those big brakes), DoctorD was yours the black one, or the silver at Bedford last time?
Superb.
Sam