E30 M3 performance
Discussion
Drove my 1st the other day & was distinctly unimpressed performance wise (handling wise no complaints)
Now dont get me wrong, Im not trying to compare it vs my V8 E36 or anything, more relating it to say my old 944S2, which is hardly a rocket ship in performance terms, but to which this M3 felt distinctly lacking, or say to a 968CS to which it felt even more leagues under performance wise & not quite as sweet handling wise.
In fact purely on performance even the VR6 Golf (slightly breathed on & with 190bhp) I was driving that day felt fair bit swifter on the same roads.
I know an E30 M3 is all about the balance & handling, rather than ouright pace, but this felt only about as rapid as an old basic 944 Lux yet its a whole lot more cash and actually when I looked at the power 2 weight figs & compared its a similar package to a 944S which is hardly a rapid beast.
I really need to drive a couple more, as if this was a representative example & thats all the grunt they all have, then its not really the car for me and a much much cheaper 944 with suspenion mods may fit the bill just as well.
Interested in your opinions chaps.
Now dont get me wrong, Im not trying to compare it vs my V8 E36 or anything, more relating it to say my old 944S2, which is hardly a rocket ship in performance terms, but to which this M3 felt distinctly lacking, or say to a 968CS to which it felt even more leagues under performance wise & not quite as sweet handling wise.
In fact purely on performance even the VR6 Golf (slightly breathed on & with 190bhp) I was driving that day felt fair bit swifter on the same roads.
I know an E30 M3 is all about the balance & handling, rather than ouright pace, but this felt only about as rapid as an old basic 944 Lux yet its a whole lot more cash and actually when I looked at the power 2 weight figs & compared its a similar package to a 944S which is hardly a rapid beast.
I really need to drive a couple more, as if this was a representative example & thats all the grunt they all have, then its not really the car for me and a much much cheaper 944 with suspenion mods may fit the bill just as well.
Interested in your opinions chaps.
I think they did 2.3, 2.5 then Evo 2.5 litre versions with 200, 220 and 238 bhp respectively. Just remember cars have moved on a bit since these cars were built, 15+ years ago.
Almost bought a white one in Spain for £7k in 1994, the car would still be worth £5k today with another 60k miles on it.
It felt bloody quick but I was driving an Orion back then. 
DAZ
>> Edited by dazren on Wednesday 10th March 12:06
Almost bought a white one in Spain for £7k in 1994, the car would still be worth £5k today with another 60k miles on it.
It felt bloody quick but I was driving an Orion back then. DAZ
>> Edited by dazren on Wednesday 10th March 12:06
Up to 4000 rpm they will be no quicker and if anything slower than a 318. The higher you rev them the quicker they get. However it is there cornering and not there straight line speed where they are rapid. I was up at Rockingha this weekend and there was a new CSL on the track. However a sport evo looked quicker through the bends although down the straight it was murdered. Neither car was being driven slowly. Remeber the E30 M3 was a race car made for the road, and most other cars are road cars made into race cars. The e30 M3 does not share many parts with other E30's.
When I was looking I drove a fair few and some of them felt faster than others, due to their age it must be down to condition, even my mechanic who has one himself said mine felt quicker than his, maybe it is also to do with the fact that all the engines were handbuilt and no two are the same.
get a leakdown check done on any prospective purchase - this tells you a lot more than a decopression test... also depends what ratio is being run in the rear diff. One of the cheapest (& most overlooked) mods you can do with this car is to change the rear diff (circa £400). Diff and cams (schrick 284s seem to work well on both inlet and exhaust and are not too peaky) really help the car out. You may need a remap to make the most of the cams. Also, make sure someone who has half a clue does your cam timing, as it can take a tad of offset from the factory settings to advance the inlet cam a tad.....
Nigel French at BexleyHeath is the man to speak to if you're interested. Diff and cams can be had for a drive in and drive out price of around £1500.
Nigel French at BexleyHeath is the man to speak to if you're interested. Diff and cams can be had for a drive in and drive out price of around £1500.
Iguana
I remember the exact same feeling when I first drove one ie. "What's all the fuss about!?"
The problem is, as I've often maintained, the E30 M3 is not a particularly good road car...that's not to say it can't be driven as a daily road car just that it's not in its best environment on the public road.
It really doesn't matter too much (on the public road) which model we're talking about either. Whether it be a 195 bhp early car or a 238 bhp EVO Sport (I've driven them all) the general characteristic is always the same ie. "No power/torque low-down...get it to 4000 rpm and then keep it above that!" And therein lie the problems!
Firstly, getting it to 4000+ rpm...if you think you can be poodling along at say 2500 rpm come up against something with some lowdown grunt and then just floor it and think you're going to come out on top...forget it! I've learned that the hard way against what, on paper, should have been some very mediocre opposition on more than one occasion!
Secondly, once you have actually got the car really 'working' (usually this involves dropping not one but TWO cogs!)you've then got to keep it 'working' in the upper rev band. To make these cars perfom they really have to be driven by the scruff of the neck! (Bear in mind the 7000 rpm rev limiter is set 'conservatively' ).
To drive the car with this sort of approach can actually be quite difficult on a public road! For a start, everyone can hear what you're doing...things are happening very quickly in the driver's seat by now! You're having to work the gearbox and the very direct feel of the steering will keep your attention pretty focused at this time!
You can't do that kind of thing too often on a public road. Having been on the wrong end of a straightline caning from E36 M3 EVOs a couple of times I'd have to say I reckon they're a better road car...BUT as someone used to regularly say on the Roadfly M3 Messageboards:
"If you think an E30 M3 is too slow it means you're slowing down too much for the bends!"
Like you, because of the above, I often question whether my E30 M3 is 'my kinda car'? But then it is those very few moments (which usually only last a few seconds)that do actually seem to make it worthwhile!...Oh yeah, and then there's just looking at it!!! That's why I've owned it for over 3 years now.
I remember the exact same feeling when I first drove one ie. "What's all the fuss about!?"
The problem is, as I've often maintained, the E30 M3 is not a particularly good road car...that's not to say it can't be driven as a daily road car just that it's not in its best environment on the public road.
It really doesn't matter too much (on the public road) which model we're talking about either. Whether it be a 195 bhp early car or a 238 bhp EVO Sport (I've driven them all) the general characteristic is always the same ie. "No power/torque low-down...get it to 4000 rpm and then keep it above that!" And therein lie the problems!
Firstly, getting it to 4000+ rpm...if you think you can be poodling along at say 2500 rpm come up against something with some lowdown grunt and then just floor it and think you're going to come out on top...forget it! I've learned that the hard way against what, on paper, should have been some very mediocre opposition on more than one occasion!
Secondly, once you have actually got the car really 'working' (usually this involves dropping not one but TWO cogs!)you've then got to keep it 'working' in the upper rev band. To make these cars perfom they really have to be driven by the scruff of the neck! (Bear in mind the 7000 rpm rev limiter is set 'conservatively'
). To drive the car with this sort of approach can actually be quite difficult on a public road! For a start, everyone can hear what you're doing
...things are happening very quickly in the driver's seat by now! You're having to work the gearbox and the very direct feel of the steering will keep your attention pretty focused at this time! You can't do that kind of thing too often on a public road. Having been on the wrong end of a straightline caning from E36 M3 EVOs a couple of times I'd have to say I reckon they're a better road car...BUT as someone used to regularly say on the Roadfly M3 Messageboards:
"If you think an E30 M3 is too slow it means you're slowing down too much for the bends!"
Like you, because of the above, I often question whether my E30 M3 is 'my kinda car'? But then it is those very few moments (which usually only last a few seconds)that do actually seem to make it worthwhile!...Oh yeah, and then there's just looking at it!!! That's why I've owned it for over 3 years now.
Cheers chaps, yeah I did rev it out to 6.5-7K & it didnt really come alive, not slow but didnt feel any real kick or step up in the power delivery, certainly it did feel more 318i like than I was expecting.
I think maybe its was down a bit on power, I'll try & bag a drive in a good 'un to compare.
Mags as you've also seen this car did you drive it too? jut wondering what you thought of it power wise.
I think maybe its was down a bit on power, I'll try & bag a drive in a good 'un to compare.
Mags as you've also seen this car did you drive it too? jut wondering what you thought of it power wise.
Nah, I didn't. Odd you thought it was noisy, I thought it was super silent!!
Remember they have solid lifters and are noisy by nature.
I liked it, its history was quite nice also, owned by someone at BMW HQ I think, I can't really remember what put me off, the 15" wheels didn't help, around a grand to change these and I would have prefered orig 16" wheels which are tough to find now. I think it was just a few bits and pieces that said tired to me and the rust in the bay was more than I would like.
I held out a bit longer (not much though, I get excited like a bloody kid) and got one I considered to be better, although it still had a few items that needed tidying.
The first week of driving I thought I had made a mistake, as Derin says, they are not the best daily drivers, I jumped from a lovely 535i into the M3, no torque, no suspension travel, and lots of noise.
On the next Sunday morning I went for a quick blast down some lanes and remembered what it was all about.
Now I'm back in love with M3's and have a list of parts and jobs to be done
Also, some nice man bought the 535 from me so I can't get back into it for comparison.
Mags
>> Edited by Mags on Thursday 11th March 08:52
Remember they have solid lifters and are noisy by nature.
I liked it, its history was quite nice also, owned by someone at BMW HQ I think, I can't really remember what put me off, the 15" wheels didn't help, around a grand to change these and I would have prefered orig 16" wheels which are tough to find now. I think it was just a few bits and pieces that said tired to me and the rust in the bay was more than I would like.
I held out a bit longer (not much though, I get excited like a bloody kid) and got one I considered to be better, although it still had a few items that needed tidying.
The first week of driving I thought I had made a mistake, as Derin says, they are not the best daily drivers, I jumped from a lovely 535i into the M3, no torque, no suspension travel, and lots of noise.
On the next Sunday morning I went for a quick blast down some lanes and remembered what it was all about.
Now I'm back in love with M3's and have a list of parts and jobs to be done
Also, some nice man bought the 535 from me so I can't get back into it for comparison.
Mags
>> Edited by Mags on Thursday 11th March 08:52
Drive a few more M3's as I think part of the problem is you can't tell how well maintained the older M3's are. It's possible that it needed service and because parts are generally much more expensive than a reglar E30, it may not be in proper tune.
In Canada (I'm in Toronto) you can find quite a variation in the the M3's available and some owners are not maintaining them well, causing the performance to suffer.
Also, if you have an E30 M3 you should open the DME and check the 3 connections to the ignition coil driver transistor. The solder pads to the transistor often crack, causing a rough idle and then intermittent stalling.
A good performance chip can really waken up the low end in this car, making it much more driveable in the 2500- 6500 rpm range.
Mark D'Sylva
In Canada (I'm in Toronto) you can find quite a variation in the the M3's available and some owners are not maintaining them well, causing the performance to suffer.
Also, if you have an E30 M3 you should open the DME and check the 3 connections to the ignition coil driver transistor. The solder pads to the transistor often crack, causing a rough idle and then intermittent stalling.
A good performance chip can really waken up the low end in this car, making it much more driveable in the 2500- 6500 rpm range.
Mark D'Sylva
Mags said:
Mark, that's interesting, where can I get some more info on checking the DME connections?
Thanks
Mags
I posted the fix on a few forums in the USA about 3 years ago and someone took that info and made a nice detailed set of instructions. The same fix applies to a few other DME's, and and this link mentions the e28 535 but any DME ending in 059, 071, 061, 079 etc will have the same problem.
Here is the link:
http://members.roadfly.com/louielouie/dme_fix.html
Mark
If you have the time and the patience, if you can get someone to correctly synchronise the throttle bodies (butterflies) this makes a big difference to the car. This is not just down with vacuum guages.
You don't just want to put a 'chip' in your car, but if you don't want to MoTEC yourself, get a custom map done for YOUR car on a rolling road. They will optimise the ign and fuelling curves for your car. The trouble with the standard motronic is that it does not have enough sensors to correctly fuel the car for a given ign curve. No 'alpha-n' setup......
MoTEC gives a good response - but is around £1300 fitted.
You don't just want to put a 'chip' in your car, but if you don't want to MoTEC yourself, get a custom map done for YOUR car on a rolling road. They will optimise the ign and fuelling curves for your car. The trouble with the standard motronic is that it does not have enough sensors to correctly fuel the car for a given ign curve. No 'alpha-n' setup......
MoTEC gives a good response - but is around £1300 fitted.
fergus said:
If you have the time and the patience, if you can get someone to correctly synchronise the throttle bodies (butterflies) this makes a big difference to the car. This is not just down with vacuum guages.
To do this properly you have to measure the idle CO at the exhaust port of each cylinder and adjust the throttle bodies.
fergus said:
You don't just want to put a 'chip' in your car, but if you don't want to MoTEC yourself, get a custom map done for YOUR car on a rolling road. They will optimise the ign and fuelling curves for your car. The trouble with the standard motronic is that it does not have enough sensors to correctly fuel the car for a given ign curve. No 'alpha-n' setup......
MoTEC gives a good response - but is around £1300 fitted.
Sure there are enough SENSORS. I think you are meaning there are not enough points in the fuel and timing maps. Actually, you would be surprised at how well a properly developed generic M3 chip will work. If anyone here has an E30 M3 and would like to try a chip and write a review on your experience, I'd be happy to lend you one. I'll need the number on your stock chip if you are interested in this.
Mark
For sure 'set up' makes a big difference on these engines...
After recently having the shims/valve clearances done on my car at Moseley Motorsport I was of the opinion that the car wasn't 'running right'. It was missing at idle once warm and felt short of power.
Disconnecting the Lambda sensor (my car is a 215bhp Cat Late Model) seemed to eliminate the misfire at idle...presumably putting the car/ecu into a default mode? But the car was still down on power.
Anyway, after MUCH setting up yesterday by Nigel Moseley (AND some not inconsiderable expense on my part )...throttles balanced etc etc (AND a new Lambda sensor...I have to say I don't reckon the was a problem with the original one...unecessary I think but c'est la vie!?)...the car is now running out of road way before it runs out of pace!!!
After recently having the shims/valve clearances done on my car at Moseley Motorsport I was of the opinion that the car wasn't 'running right'. It was missing at idle once warm and felt short of power.
Disconnecting the Lambda sensor (my car is a 215bhp Cat Late Model) seemed to eliminate the misfire at idle...presumably putting the car/ecu into a default mode? But the car was still down on power.
Anyway, after MUCH setting up yesterday by Nigel Moseley (AND some not inconsiderable expense on my part
)...throttles balanced etc etc (AND a new Lambda sensor...I have to say I don't reckon the was a problem with the original one...unecessary I think but c'est la vie!?)...the car is now running out of road way before it runs out of pace!!! Unfortunately if you are used to big tourque engines, i.e the 6 pot or v8 then jumping into an E30 M3 can seem a bit of a dissapointment.
Most of the issues aboout using the upper rev range etc. have all been covered here. However, there is one item that you should check on any car you consider.
By design the original exhaust system had a crossover (x pipe) in it where the manifold meets the main system. Some after market exhausts do away with this. The net result is a flat unresponsive engine, at any speed. This item needs to be there.
In terms of mods, I would consider them in this order. I would also do all the suspension and brake things first, before you get to the engine. Coilovers for a mostly track car is the best setup, mine works a treat. Bilstein sports and Eibach springs seem to be popular for fast road use.
1. Custom remap - can find up to 20bhp, but the difference is in the drive - vastly better (if you don't plan to get cams do this - if you do, hang on until you get cams as it will need doing again)
2. Cams - Between 15-30bhp - really makes the car come alive after 3500rpm. Doesn't affect low down too badly either (remap essential) Offsetting the cams retains better driveability i.e 284/276.
3. Evo Flywheel - Much lighter - makes the engine spin up much faster - Drive a standard car, then compare with an EVOII or EVO Sport. Much better throttle response.
4. Head work - these engines are very efficient as they stand, but opening the inlet ports to Evo Sport dimensions or going to the larger throttle bodies (48mm on the later cars as against 46mm on the early ones) is worth consdiering if you really want to extract power. The exhaust side of the engine already outflows the inlet by about 120% so different manifolds and tinkering with the exhaust side rarely gain much. The stock exhaust is very efficient but damm expensive which is why people buy cheaper alternatives.
5. Motec, DTA, Max ECU - Throwing away the AFM releases much better mid range torque. Some power is released at the top end but it is mainly throttle response and not outright power that is affected. I know of a car still with the AFM, it has a mildly built 2.5 and makes 250bhp. Lots of money, but does provide ultimate mapability and potential for the future. So if you want to run 8 injectors later with a dtm style airbox then this is the toy for you.
Find one and enjoy. I much prefer driving my e30 to my E46 Tourer, it just feels alive.
Oh and if you really want to enjoy one properly, you going to need a Trackday.......
Roops
Most of the issues aboout using the upper rev range etc. have all been covered here. However, there is one item that you should check on any car you consider.
By design the original exhaust system had a crossover (x pipe) in it where the manifold meets the main system. Some after market exhausts do away with this. The net result is a flat unresponsive engine, at any speed. This item needs to be there.
In terms of mods, I would consider them in this order. I would also do all the suspension and brake things first, before you get to the engine. Coilovers for a mostly track car is the best setup, mine works a treat. Bilstein sports and Eibach springs seem to be popular for fast road use.
1. Custom remap - can find up to 20bhp, but the difference is in the drive - vastly better (if you don't plan to get cams do this - if you do, hang on until you get cams as it will need doing again)
2. Cams - Between 15-30bhp - really makes the car come alive after 3500rpm. Doesn't affect low down too badly either (remap essential) Offsetting the cams retains better driveability i.e 284/276.
3. Evo Flywheel - Much lighter - makes the engine spin up much faster - Drive a standard car, then compare with an EVOII or EVO Sport. Much better throttle response.
4. Head work - these engines are very efficient as they stand, but opening the inlet ports to Evo Sport dimensions or going to the larger throttle bodies (48mm on the later cars as against 46mm on the early ones) is worth consdiering if you really want to extract power. The exhaust side of the engine already outflows the inlet by about 120% so different manifolds and tinkering with the exhaust side rarely gain much. The stock exhaust is very efficient but damm expensive which is why people buy cheaper alternatives.
5. Motec, DTA, Max ECU - Throwing away the AFM releases much better mid range torque. Some power is released at the top end but it is mainly throttle response and not outright power that is affected. I know of a car still with the AFM, it has a mildly built 2.5 and makes 250bhp. Lots of money, but does provide ultimate mapability and potential for the future. So if you want to run 8 injectors later with a dtm style airbox then this is the toy for you.
Find one and enjoy. I much prefer driving my e30 to my E46 Tourer, it just feels alive.
Oh and if you really want to enjoy one properly, you going to need a Trackday.......
Roops
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