M3 or M3 CSL- What do I go for?
Discussion
Currently looking at 2002 M3 SMG with 17k miles or 400 mile CSL. Would love CSL but am struggling to justify extra cost (have driven it and it is absolutely amazing).
Is there any consensus on what each of these cars might be worth in 3 years time. Was thinking that M3 would be circa £20k (£15k depreciation), but CSL....don't know.
If viewed as an expensive M3 then it may not be worth much more that a regular M3 of the same age, making it a very expensive three years motoring for me.
Alternatively viewed as a 996 GT3 competitor and with only 500 in the UK, it may achieve similar residuals to a GT3, which having cost £70-75k new are worth £55-60k even today. Applying this theory to the CSL might mean not massively more depreciation than a regular M3 which would get me closer to justifying it.
At the moment heart says CSL, head says regular car. Help me make my head say CSL too!!! What will it be worth?
Is there any consensus on what each of these cars might be worth in 3 years time. Was thinking that M3 would be circa £20k (£15k depreciation), but CSL....don't know.
If viewed as an expensive M3 then it may not be worth much more that a regular M3 of the same age, making it a very expensive three years motoring for me.
Alternatively viewed as a 996 GT3 competitor and with only 500 in the UK, it may achieve similar residuals to a GT3, which having cost £70-75k new are worth £55-60k even today. Applying this theory to the CSL might mean not massively more depreciation than a regular M3 which would get me closer to justifying it.
At the moment heart says CSL, head says regular car. Help me make my head say CSL too!!! What will it be worth?
Economically speaking a used M3 would make sense.
BMW are in a bit of a competion with Porsche at the moment, GT3 out and the CSL to match it, isn't there a GT3RS just about to be released.
BMW could do a CSL evo , this may have the next generation M3/M4 V8 in it or they could extend the production run of the M3 CSL again, they already produced some extra cars to meet demand.
The next M3 will be a pretty quick customer with its V8 and dynamic drive suspension, possibly quicker than the M3 CSL, would a hardcore driver want to pay £40-50k for a 2nd hand csl or just get one of the new m3 v8s ?
check out www.bm3w.co.uk CSL forum.
BMW are in a bit of a competion with Porsche at the moment, GT3 out and the CSL to match it, isn't there a GT3RS just about to be released.
BMW could do a CSL evo , this may have the next generation M3/M4 V8 in it or they could extend the production run of the M3 CSL again, they already produced some extra cars to meet demand.
The next M3 will be a pretty quick customer with its V8 and dynamic drive suspension, possibly quicker than the M3 CSL, would a hardcore driver want to pay £40-50k for a 2nd hand csl or just get one of the new m3 v8s ?
check out www.bm3w.co.uk CSL forum.
If a three year old CSL were to be worth £35k then I am getting close to justifying it.
Three year old M3 currently £27-30k- approx 65-75% of new cost. £35k = 58% of new cost of CSL so hopefully it will achieve this bearing in mind that it will no longer be a current model car, but will have some exclusivity still.
Thanks for advice on other forum- will try there too.
Three year old M3 currently £27-30k- approx 65-75% of new cost. £35k = 58% of new cost of CSL so hopefully it will achieve this bearing in mind that it will no longer be a current model car, but will have some exclusivity still.
Thanks for advice on other forum- will try there too.
Decision is that unfortunately regular M3 gets the nod for now.
Consensus with some trade contacts is that there could be some good value for money CSL's around next year costing somewhere in the mid 40's.
Deal I can get on used M3 should mean only losing £1-2k between now and net spring/ summer when I may be able to indulge myself in a CSL for approx £10k to change.
Consensus with some trade contacts is that there could be some good value for money CSL's around next year costing somewhere in the mid 40's.
Deal I can get on used M3 should mean only losing £1-2k between now and net spring/ summer when I may be able to indulge myself in a CSL for approx £10k to change.
If you price spec a new M3 Coupe against a new CSL, the difference is £16k ?
In a years' time you assume that you will lose only £1 to 2k on a regular M3, but you may lose more.
The £10k difference you mention plus the £2k + ?= £12k +, and you may now be able to pick up a car somebody had hoped to make a premium on and which has not yet been driven in anger, --- could this be the case in a year ?
Plus you will enjoy the exclusivity of the CSL for an extra year.
CSL depreciation. BMW have enjoyed the aura of the first CSL for many years. The reason this car is so good is because BMW have put 100% and their credibility into the vehicle. They need the GT3 touch to underpin the M brand.
So here's the £1m question. BMW can choose what they do next. Will they allow the M3CSL which has been very expensive for them in unit and credibility terms, to be succeeded by something better and cheaper ?
Just how much better could it get ? Have you seen the current Top Gear mag with the M series review by Soper ? M branding isn't simply a power to weight ratio !
(For a road car, the press have not come out with a convincing case for the GT3. 70mm ground clearance, two seats, very focussed suspension set up, no boot, very quick "--- but step out of a Turbo and into a GT3 and you'll probaby crash it" I am not sure either that the GT3 RS will help Porsche anywhere else but on the track, even if it is the most fabulous "male jewellery"). But a secondhand new style GT3 could be an interesting buy --- still at list but mostly £10k more than the M3 CSL --- no, I don't want to think about it !
I have chosen the M3CSL and and it sounds like it could be your "make up your mind time".
AS for the money, who knows ? At least there aren't many options so you are likely to able to buy what you would have chosen for yourself had you ordered a new car two years ago.
Whatever, enjoy looking. I have always found looking, almost as much fun as owning --
And going out to buy that nearly new CSL wold be a great reason to get up on a cold, dark November Monday morning !!
P.S. Just remember to budget for some "sensible" tyres --- I know that BMW recommend the Michellin Pilot Sport2, but might Pirelli PZero Rosso's be better ?
In a years' time you assume that you will lose only £1 to 2k on a regular M3, but you may lose more.
The £10k difference you mention plus the £2k + ?= £12k +, and you may now be able to pick up a car somebody had hoped to make a premium on and which has not yet been driven in anger, --- could this be the case in a year ?
Plus you will enjoy the exclusivity of the CSL for an extra year.
CSL depreciation. BMW have enjoyed the aura of the first CSL for many years. The reason this car is so good is because BMW have put 100% and their credibility into the vehicle. They need the GT3 touch to underpin the M brand.
So here's the £1m question. BMW can choose what they do next. Will they allow the M3CSL which has been very expensive for them in unit and credibility terms, to be succeeded by something better and cheaper ?
Just how much better could it get ? Have you seen the current Top Gear mag with the M series review by Soper ? M branding isn't simply a power to weight ratio !
(For a road car, the press have not come out with a convincing case for the GT3. 70mm ground clearance, two seats, very focussed suspension set up, no boot, very quick "--- but step out of a Turbo and into a GT3 and you'll probaby crash it" I am not sure either that the GT3 RS will help Porsche anywhere else but on the track, even if it is the most fabulous "male jewellery"). But a secondhand new style GT3 could be an interesting buy --- still at list but mostly £10k more than the M3 CSL --- no, I don't want to think about it !
I have chosen the M3CSL and and it sounds like it could be your "make up your mind time".
AS for the money, who knows ? At least there aren't many options so you are likely to able to buy what you would have chosen for yourself had you ordered a new car two years ago.
Whatever, enjoy looking. I have always found looking, almost as much fun as owning --
And going out to buy that nearly new CSL wold be a great reason to get up on a cold, dark November Monday morning !!
P.S. Just remember to budget for some "sensible" tyres --- I know that BMW recommend the Michellin Pilot Sport2, but might Pirelli PZero Rosso's be better ?
Chris, I fully agree with what you say. Buying a CSL is a decision of the heart not of the wallet, financial sense it may or may not be but if you enjoy driving over and above day to day usage then the CSL is considerably more focused than the M3.
As for the tyres, I fitted Bridgestone S-03PP on mine (and put the Cup tyres in the garage over winter). You will find that Pirelli's excellent Rossos aren't made in the CSLs sizes. The S-03s suit the CSL down to a tee and provide a very forgiving and flowing feel to the chassis. They also grip hard and with a very stiff sidewall feel similar to the Cups for precision I am told.
>> Edited by DoctorD on Wednesday 12th November 23:02
As for the tyres, I fitted Bridgestone S-03PP on mine (and put the Cup tyres in the garage over winter). You will find that Pirelli's excellent Rossos aren't made in the CSLs sizes. The S-03s suit the CSL down to a tee and provide a very forgiving and flowing feel to the chassis. They also grip hard and with a very stiff sidewall feel similar to the Cups for precision I am told.
>> Edited by DoctorD on Wednesday 12th November 23:02
I have just read the definitive answer. Read the article by Klaus Schnitzer in the December issue of the american Bimmer magazine.
It tells you far more than the BMW marketing men --- for example:
The Michellin Pilot Sport Cup tyre question. These improve the lap time of a standard M3 on the Nordschleife by around 10 seconds, but they improve the suspension-optimised CSL by an extra 22 seconds providing in their tests a lap time of 7min 50 secs, beating the latest GT3 by 3 seconds.
As a benchmark, the standard M3 requires 8 min 22 seconds.
Now ask about the brakes, and how the roof is made and --- no, I'll leave you to buy the mag.
P.S. Contrary to popular opinion, there are only 2000 cars worldwide which it seems is less than the number of GT3's. The States aren't getting any ---
It tells you far more than the BMW marketing men --- for example:
The Michellin Pilot Sport Cup tyre question. These improve the lap time of a standard M3 on the Nordschleife by around 10 seconds, but they improve the suspension-optimised CSL by an extra 22 seconds providing in their tests a lap time of 7min 50 secs, beating the latest GT3 by 3 seconds.
As a benchmark, the standard M3 requires 8 min 22 seconds.
Now ask about the brakes, and how the roof is made and --- no, I'll leave you to buy the mag.
P.S. Contrary to popular opinion, there are only 2000 cars worldwide which it seems is less than the number of GT3's. The States aren't getting any ---
Autocar say they are, but have two in classifieds this week, both at over list. I saw a massive 7 in this weeks Sunday Times, most at around list.
But 500 cars over a short period must put pressure on a limited market.
Even GT3's can now be found at list. This years allocation was I believe 200 + 98 RS's ? But I was told by my local dealer that Porsche may well spoil this and manufacture some more next year. Anybody know for sure ?
Re. to the CSL price, the acid test is this. At what price will the market mop up the sales of speculator vehicles ?
Underpinning the price is surely this. At £55-60k, what better could one buy as an everyday supercar ?
Autocar even suggested this week that second line dealers were paying £50k for delivery mileage cars. But there are very few CSL's with BMW dealers, why ?. For what it's worth, the last time Autocar used this same photo in a previous news section, they were saying that production delays were upsetting existing CSL customers who had anticipating earlier delivery, and that both UK and US cars were being delayed by a headlamp washer problem.
Well, only Xenon headlamped CSL's have headlamp washers, and we know that there are NO US CSL's !
So who knows what they know ? Possibly not even they do !
If you want one, buy one. Just do the best deal you can. Are the Pistonheads cars still for sale ? Or check out the Sunday Times ...
But 500 cars over a short period must put pressure on a limited market.
Even GT3's can now be found at list. This years allocation was I believe 200 + 98 RS's ? But I was told by my local dealer that Porsche may well spoil this and manufacture some more next year. Anybody know for sure ?
Re. to the CSL price, the acid test is this. At what price will the market mop up the sales of speculator vehicles ?
Underpinning the price is surely this. At £55-60k, what better could one buy as an everyday supercar ?
Autocar even suggested this week that second line dealers were paying £50k for delivery mileage cars. But there are very few CSL's with BMW dealers, why ?. For what it's worth, the last time Autocar used this same photo in a previous news section, they were saying that production delays were upsetting existing CSL customers who had anticipating earlier delivery, and that both UK and US cars were being delayed by a headlamp washer problem.
Well, only Xenon headlamped CSL's have headlamp washers, and we know that there are NO US CSL's !
So who knows what they know ? Possibly not even they do !
If you want one, buy one. Just do the best deal you can. Are the Pistonheads cars still for sale ? Or check out the Sunday Times ...
Porsche are definitely making GT3 for next year,,,expect the new 997 to summer 2004,they will produce the cars like GT3 which have a demand,but most standard Carrera buyers next year will hold out for the new shape.
A 997 GT3 is expected or more likely anticipated in 2006 so expect current GT3 to hold most of their money as a 996 GT3 will still outperform a standard 340bhp carrera 997.
A 997 GT3 is expected or more likely anticipated in 2006 so expect current GT3 to hold most of their money as a 996 GT3 will still outperform a standard 340bhp carrera 997.
ChrisW. said:I was just about to say that.
Autocar say they are
AutoCar says:
"Owners planning to turn a profit from selling on one of the first BMW M3 CSLs are being left out of pocket.
Used buyers aren't biting as well as the 'carpetbaggers' predicted, and rather than pay over list price for used examples of the lightweight 160mpg Coupe, they are starting to settle for trade-in prices of around £50,000 for delivery mileage examples.
Tony Halse, of independent BMW specialist Munich Legends, isn't surprised that the CSL's investment potential isn't being fulfilled: 'I've had loads of calls from M£ CSL owners wanting to sell', he told Autocar. 'A lot of people got excited about the CSL arriving and placed orders. But the reality is there's not enough real-world difference over the standard models and used buyers aren't justifying spending the extra over the standard model.'
Plenty of classified ads are still showing CSLs at list, but prices are starting a slow, downward slide. Best of the deals we spotted was three grand shaved off the £58,455 showroom price on an 1800-mile model being sold privately. But many experts are predicting that prices will fall within weeks because so many examples have started appearing on the used-car market at once.
'Prices have a long way to go and most of my customers have been saying they won't be buying CSLs until they're down to the 40 grand mark', Halse says."
I think it's so unlikely that the CSL will be worth only £40k next year. I sold my 2 year old M3 which originally cost me £45k for £34k a couple of weeks ago and that was to a dealer. It had a retail value of £36k.
BMW are guilty of over supply to a marketplace that didn't quite understand the CSL, just as many people still don't get the 996 GT3. I spoke at length earlier this year with the Sales Director at BMW GB and he was having a tough time differentiating the speculators from the real customers. Judging by the number of delivery mileage cars for sale in the past few months I suspect that he failed. You also have to take into account how large the marketplace could have been for 500 cars produced within six months and priced at £60k. Porsche will be bringing in a similar number to the UK with production spread over 2003 and 2004. Hopefully once spring arrives next year we will see most of the CSLs soaked up an in the hands of owners that actually want to drive them, then prices will at the very least stabilise.
Obviously the guys at Autocar have never studied economics... I actually corresponded with Colin Goodwin after their earlier statement about prices being near to £50k and here's what he said to me .."On the issue of price, I made the big mistake of listening to the wrong person on the subject and not checking out the prices myself.".
So in answer to the original topic of this thread, the two cars are very different. The M3 gets the thumbs up for day-to-day practicality, with the soft nappa leather seats, better ride, softer throttle pick-up and usefulness of toys such as SAT NAV.
But from a driving perspective the CSL reflects what you would expect to find if BMW had tried their hardest to improve the M3. It's not a cosmetic job, it's the real deal.
I alternate between running mine on Cup tyres and more ordinary S-03 tyres and whilst the Cups reduce understeer, improve turn-in and provide slightly more grip they also reduce the fluidity of the handling, making it slightly snatchy on break-away. With road tyres the CSL loses traction far more readily than the regular M3, so the Cup tyres help in some ways to tame the traction problems inherent in an M3 with more straight line performance.
The biggest difference when driving the CSL compared to the M3 is firstly the noise, which is incomparable with the M3 and feels like it's worth £5k by itself, then the increased punch out of corners. In the M3 the acceleration is linear and strong, whereas in the CSL the torque arrives in a 'kidney punch' kind of way, pulling harder and stronger all the way to the redline. I'm not sure the difference is so marked higher up the revs, but from 3000rpm to 6000rpm it's like a 3.5 litre engine compared to the 3.2. The chassis is a lot more composed than the M3 with none of the roll understeer you get in the M3 on tighter bends. There is also more composure and stability through faster corners, which I suspect had more to contriubute to it's Nurburgring time than the Cup tyres.
The decision about buying one now or later, should also take into consideration the wear and tear factors on a car like this. There are a lot of Carbon Fibre parts on this car that can be easily damaged and very expensive to repair. Also given the higher state of engine tune wouldn't you want to know how it had been treated?
Comparing the two cars is not really very valid. It's just like comparing a GT3 with a regular 996, both cars are fast but the GT3 is more focused for the task of driving quickly. Despite what some 'journalists' have said, sticking a set of sticky tyres on an M3 and lowering it will still be nowhere near what driving a CSL feels like. The weight difference is very noticeable, the sound is amazing, the performance difference is noticeable and it looks just right for the task it was designed for. Buy the M3 because it is the best sports saloon in the world and buy the CSL because it's one of the most exciting sportscars in the world. Take your pick.
>> Edited by DoctorD on Wednesday 26th November 13:49
BMW are guilty of over supply to a marketplace that didn't quite understand the CSL, just as many people still don't get the 996 GT3. I spoke at length earlier this year with the Sales Director at BMW GB and he was having a tough time differentiating the speculators from the real customers. Judging by the number of delivery mileage cars for sale in the past few months I suspect that he failed. You also have to take into account how large the marketplace could have been for 500 cars produced within six months and priced at £60k. Porsche will be bringing in a similar number to the UK with production spread over 2003 and 2004. Hopefully once spring arrives next year we will see most of the CSLs soaked up an in the hands of owners that actually want to drive them, then prices will at the very least stabilise.
Obviously the guys at Autocar have never studied economics... I actually corresponded with Colin Goodwin after their earlier statement about prices being near to £50k and here's what he said to me .."On the issue of price, I made the big mistake of listening to the wrong person on the subject and not checking out the prices myself.".
So in answer to the original topic of this thread, the two cars are very different. The M3 gets the thumbs up for day-to-day practicality, with the soft nappa leather seats, better ride, softer throttle pick-up and usefulness of toys such as SAT NAV.
But from a driving perspective the CSL reflects what you would expect to find if BMW had tried their hardest to improve the M3. It's not a cosmetic job, it's the real deal.
I alternate between running mine on Cup tyres and more ordinary S-03 tyres and whilst the Cups reduce understeer, improve turn-in and provide slightly more grip they also reduce the fluidity of the handling, making it slightly snatchy on break-away. With road tyres the CSL loses traction far more readily than the regular M3, so the Cup tyres help in some ways to tame the traction problems inherent in an M3 with more straight line performance.
The biggest difference when driving the CSL compared to the M3 is firstly the noise, which is incomparable with the M3 and feels like it's worth £5k by itself, then the increased punch out of corners. In the M3 the acceleration is linear and strong, whereas in the CSL the torque arrives in a 'kidney punch' kind of way, pulling harder and stronger all the way to the redline. I'm not sure the difference is so marked higher up the revs, but from 3000rpm to 6000rpm it's like a 3.5 litre engine compared to the 3.2. The chassis is a lot more composed than the M3 with none of the roll understeer you get in the M3 on tighter bends. There is also more composure and stability through faster corners, which I suspect had more to contriubute to it's Nurburgring time than the Cup tyres.
The decision about buying one now or later, should also take into consideration the wear and tear factors on a car like this. There are a lot of Carbon Fibre parts on this car that can be easily damaged and very expensive to repair. Also given the higher state of engine tune wouldn't you want to know how it had been treated?
Comparing the two cars is not really very valid. It's just like comparing a GT3 with a regular 996, both cars are fast but the GT3 is more focused for the task of driving quickly. Despite what some 'journalists' have said, sticking a set of sticky tyres on an M3 and lowering it will still be nowhere near what driving a CSL feels like. The weight difference is very noticeable, the sound is amazing, the performance difference is noticeable and it looks just right for the task it was designed for. Buy the M3 because it is the best sports saloon in the world and buy the CSL because it's one of the most exciting sportscars in the world. Take your pick.
>> Edited by DoctorD on Wednesday 26th November 13:49
I agree, and this is the real deal.
Once the CSL's are in the hands of real owners rather than speculators, then and only then will their real value be appreciated and reflect in the market price.
I also had a go at Mr Goodwin --- he did not reply.I even offered to buy the first car he came across at £50k, and would have done.Hence no reply ? (!)
I guess that the best the mags can do is report their honest opinion on the qualities of the car, and the rest is first, second and third hand rumour.
I am only confused when magazines such as Autocar seem to ignor the intelligence which exists within the pages of their own magazine.
On the other hand, how well do most motoring contributors read their own magazines ?
And at what point do they become vulnerable to the "opinion" of those who would love to buy CSL's with zero miles at £50k ?
Which is what makes this Forum such an illuminating vehicle for first hand opinion.
Once the CSL's are in the hands of real owners rather than speculators, then and only then will their real value be appreciated and reflect in the market price.
I also had a go at Mr Goodwin --- he did not reply.I even offered to buy the first car he came across at £50k, and would have done.Hence no reply ? (!)
I guess that the best the mags can do is report their honest opinion on the qualities of the car, and the rest is first, second and third hand rumour.
I am only confused when magazines such as Autocar seem to ignor the intelligence which exists within the pages of their own magazine.
On the other hand, how well do most motoring contributors read their own magazines ?
And at what point do they become vulnerable to the "opinion" of those who would love to buy CSL's with zero miles at £50k ?
Which is what makes this Forum such an illuminating vehicle for first hand opinion.
Apologies for reviving an old thread, but I came across the following news story on another site.
www.honestjohn.co.uk/news/index.htm?news_id=1217
A New CSL for £3,500 off list price.
www.honestjohn.co.uk/news/index.htm?news_id=1217
A New CSL for £3,500 off list price.
The lowest price I've heard of so far has been £55,000 but the jury is still out on what this represents for longer term values. At the moment there are too many cars on the market caused by the fact that BMW were determined to build all 500 cars between June and December. Once those that are available are sold we'll see what happens to values.
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