Discussion
i just purchased my second bmw 840ci on e-bay ... seems a nice 2xowner {lastt one six yrs} car estoral blue 1997 103k miles for £6000....
but before i hand over my hard earned cash just need some advice
1. there is no v5 and he has lost the service history...what should i do to get this back from bmw...any web sites i should visit?
2. there was a new engin fitted by bmw at 70k miles and cost £13K ...is this going to be a problem?
3. what is the best web site for car history?? as i have not seen the car and know that they are impossible to repair any crash dammage
and finally 4. considering i have exactly the same colour 1996 version am i mad to go ahead with this purchase... only difference is this one has £12K worth of bmw extras fitted.... no chave stuff.
as always thanks in advance for any advice.
but before i hand over my hard earned cash just need some advice
1. there is no v5 and he has lost the service history...what should i do to get this back from bmw...any web sites i should visit?
2. there was a new engin fitted by bmw at 70k miles and cost £13K ...is this going to be a problem?
3. what is the best web site for car history?? as i have not seen the car and know that they are impossible to repair any crash dammage
and finally 4. considering i have exactly the same colour 1996 version am i mad to go ahead with this purchase... only difference is this one has £12K worth of bmw extras fitted.... no chave stuff.
as always thanks in advance for any advice.
Sounds a bit fishy to me.... Firstly...I totally agree with Catherine:
"No V5 = No deal !!!"
Additionally, as far as I would be concerned:
"No History = No deal !!!"
Furthermore...and I think those who are familiar with my website...or have read the current article in 'Classic Cars' magazine will appreciate...from my perspective:
"£6K car = no deal !!!"
On a '97 car that really should be a 4.4L...unless it was a 4.0L that hung around in a dealership (?) therefore Nikasil shouldn't be an issue on this car.
www.bmwclassics.co.uk/about/index.html
Edited by derin100 on Wednesday 27th December 20:09
I'm inclined to agree with both Derin & Catherine
Unless explanations can be offered (and proven)
No V5 has it had a cherished plate just removed (if it has V5's should be immenint as they are taking days rather than weeks)
If the V5 is genuinely lost, then if the car is registered to the guy you buying it from, then if he rings up DVLA they will issue a replacement at a cost of £19 and will be sent out in a couple of days
No V5 will mean you will be unable to tax the vehicle till you're in possesion of one (no ifs or buts) and if you apply using a V62 form you will be waiting 6 weeks for one to be issue and again paying £19
Service History....if the owner has had possesion for a number of years then he'll be able to tell you where its been serviced and if its main dealer as claimed it'll should also be recorded on the BMW central system IF it is then you've just got the ball ache of getting the book stamped up
Re the engine change, we'll Derin knows pretty much all there is to know about 840's so be guided by what he says, and by the sounds of it the cars 'out of year' so is worth no more than an earlier 4.0 despite its later reg plate
Or if its the later 4.4 what was the reason for the change?
Unless explanations can be offered (and proven)
No V5 has it had a cherished plate just removed (if it has V5's should be immenint as they are taking days rather than weeks)
If the V5 is genuinely lost, then if the car is registered to the guy you buying it from, then if he rings up DVLA they will issue a replacement at a cost of £19 and will be sent out in a couple of days
No V5 will mean you will be unable to tax the vehicle till you're in possesion of one (no ifs or buts) and if you apply using a V62 form you will be waiting 6 weeks for one to be issue and again paying £19
Service History....if the owner has had possesion for a number of years then he'll be able to tell you where its been serviced and if its main dealer as claimed it'll should also be recorded on the BMW central system IF it is then you've just got the ball ache of getting the book stamped up
Re the engine change, we'll Derin knows pretty much all there is to know about 840's so be guided by what he says, and by the sounds of it the cars 'out of year' so is worth no more than an earlier 4.0 despite its later reg plate
Or if its the later 4.4 what was the reason for the change?
Edited by mustard on Wednesday 27th December 20:29
Edited by mustard on Wednesday 27th December 20:33
I think you wait for the V5, but the waiting for a service history on this car is niave.
The very low residuals on these cars, and seeming ability of the dealerships to always charge inflated prices for servicing soon priced most owners away from dealerships. I don't hink there was a single time I left it with a dealership whereby they could either satifactorily diagnose the problem, or charge a bill of less than a thousand pounds. In the end I'd amassed so much information on the car that I was giving diagrams to the dealership to work from. At that point it just became a bit ridiculous.
Find someone who knows about the cars, and take them with you. There aren't that many good sources of information about the cars, even the dealerships weren't that good with them in terms of being able to find information.
But, can I ask why you are going for an 840ci? The collectors car was always the 850i or possibly the CSI if you could live with the extra complication. The 840ci was simply a step in the progressive deconstruction of the spirit of the car mainly for the fuel concious lentilists in the mid nineties. Buy the car as it was originally designed before the sales people got involved.
Julian64 said:
I think you wait for the V5, but the waiting for a service history on this car is niave.
The very low residuals on these cars, and seeming ability of the dealerships to always charge inflated prices for servicing soon priced most owners away from dealerships. I don't hink there was a single time I left it with a dealership whereby they could either satifactorily diagnose the problem, or charge a bill of less than a thousand pounds. In the end I'd amassed so much information on the car that I was giving diagrams to the dealership to work from. At that point it just became a bit ridiculous.
Find someone who knows about the cars, and take them with you. There aren't that many good sources of information about the cars, even the dealerships weren't that good with them in terms of being able to find information.
But, can I ask why you are going for an 840ci? The collectors car was always the 850i or possibly the CSI if you could live with the extra complication. The 840ci was simply a step in the progressive deconstruction of the spirit of the car mainly for the fuel concious lentilists in the mid nineties. Buy the car as it was originally designed before the sales people got involved.
Well, much of that is actually open to debate in my humble opinion:
Whilst it might be accepted that main dealerships may offer poor service on certain models of BMW (I own an E30 M3 and would certainly concur on that statement)...the 'market' won't accept that as an excuse for what has been stated as " No Service History".
"Lost" isn't an excuse...or it's an 'excuse' that will costs £Thousands on one of these cars. That's just the way it works.
"Low residuals" is only true at the "lower end" of the market. The market is increasingly buoyant for E31s with good provenance. Cars with no history do not have "good provenance".
For example, I was offered £20,000 for my car by three different people (which I declined!) based on the low mileage and supporting, cast iron, history of my car. That was even BEFORE I did what I did to the car and spent close to a further £4K on it!
www.bmwclassics.co.uk/840cisport01/index.html
It is true that if one simply want to run one of these cars as a daily driver one can do so and would probably be better served either by a knowledgable specialist or indeed by spending the time to do one's own research. However, if one sees the car differently, as a so called 'collectors item', then the market only understands (read: "Pays for" ) true provenance. And that only comes supported by a proper service history. The car in question apparently has..."No Service History" because it's been "Lost".
Sorry, as far as I would be concerned: "Too bad...not interested...not worth anything to me!"
Finally, accepting the 850CSi apart (which I think we agree is a totally different animal with both its pros and cons)...I think it's, at the very least, highly open to debate that the: "The collectors car was always the 850i"
Little or no straightline performance advantage? A definite performance DISADVANTAGE when the road is anything but straight against an 840Ci Sport? (i.e fundamental balance, suspension, aerodynamics, braking...)
I'm not in anyway saying that an 850i is a bad car in comparison...but it would take something 'exceptional' to make me look at one over an 840Ci Sport. I think my position is also supported if one does a simple Autotrader search? The general trend will be 850CSi at the top end of your search...840Ci Sports will follow (indeed the very highest priced 8-Series currently for sale is in fact an 840Ci Sport!)...followed by (and some margin behind!) 4.0L 840's and 850's. Thus it would seem that both people who want to 'drive' and people who want to 'collect' are not prepared to pay more for an 850i. I certainly wouldn't!
As further proof...If one frequents, as I do, the U.S 8-Series forums (i.e where the 8-Series was a big seller) one sees that the model they wish that they'd always had (but never got!) was the 840Ci Sport!
I guess it's "horses for courses"...but having had both I rarely look at anything else now.
Edited by derin100 on Wednesday 27th December 22:27
Edited by derin100 on Wednesday 27th December 23:53
the ad reads ... i would include some pics if i knew how to....
BMW 840 Ci SPORT
PERSONAL NUMBER PLATE (WORTH £2,000)
KJ 1966
NEW ENGINE FITTED BY BMW AT 70,000 MILES IN 2002 AT A COST OVER £13,000.
20/30 MILES PER GALLON.
OVER £12,000 WORTH OF EXTRAS, FACTORY FITTED BMW BODY KIT, MOTOR SPORT MIRRORS, SCHNITZER INTERIOR WOOD TRIM AND ALPINA WHEELS.
GOOD CONDITION IN AND OUT.
LOST V5 DOCUMENTS AND SERVICE BOOK. HAVE OBTAINED SOME RECEIPTS FROM DEALER INCLUDING NEW ENGINE FITTING.
I HAVE OWNED THE CAR FOR OVER 6 YEARS.
BMW 840 Ci SPORT
PERSONAL NUMBER PLATE (WORTH £2,000)
KJ 1966
NEW ENGINE FITTED BY BMW AT 70,000 MILES IN 2002 AT A COST OVER £13,000.
20/30 MILES PER GALLON.
OVER £12,000 WORTH OF EXTRAS, FACTORY FITTED BMW BODY KIT, MOTOR SPORT MIRRORS, SCHNITZER INTERIOR WOOD TRIM AND ALPINA WHEELS.
GOOD CONDITION IN AND OUT.
LOST V5 DOCUMENTS AND SERVICE BOOK. HAVE OBTAINED SOME RECEIPTS FROM DEALER INCLUDING NEW ENGINE FITTING.
I HAVE OWNED THE CAR FOR OVER 6 YEARS.
Ok here's my take on that:
Number plate: Yeah, I can believe that plate might be worth that...but then you'd then have to sell it to realise that value. Unless of course your initials are KJ and you were born in 1966....or something?
Motorsport Mirrors: That's actually 'standard' on an 840Ci Sport...along with a load of other stuff which is much more significant than a pair of mirrors!
Alpina Alloys: Actually a MINUS point in this case unless you just want to break the car up and sell the parts...the wheels will actually be worth quite a lot.
'Schnitzer' wood interior: Ditto the above but even more so as no one will actually buy the bits!
If he can 'obtain' receipts from the dealership he can 'obtain' the service history on a car of this age. It'll all be on computer...he doesn't even need to apply to the dealer that supposedly did the servicing...they can all access it.It's only on much older cars that they may no longer hold computer records.
In the final analysis this is up to you. No one here has said this is necessarily a 'bad car'. But even if it is a 'good car' you have to ask yourself:
"What do I want from this car? Do I want to drive it until it gives up and then sod the consequences and the cost of purchase? Or do I want to see some sort of return on the car when I come to sell it?"
If YOU are already having to ask these questions regarding the value of the car when you are buying it now (and you clearly do have the right concerns as it was you who raised these questions) aren't others going to be asking exactly the same when/if you come to sell it?
My humble opinion is: "Stay clear!" even if you are just looking for a daily driver.
At that kind of money you can buy a far better daily driver (i.e a car other than an E31) whilst keeping your other E31 for 'enjoying'.
derin100 said:
Julian64 said:
I think you wait for the V5, but the waiting for a service history on this car is niave.
The very low residuals on these cars, and seeming ability of the dealerships to always charge inflated prices for servicing soon priced most owners away from dealerships. I don't hink there was a single time I left it with a dealership whereby they could either satifactorily diagnose the problem, or charge a bill of less than a thousand pounds. In the end I'd amassed so much information on the car that I was giving diagrams to the dealership to work from. At that point it just became a bit ridiculous.
Find someone who knows about the cars, and take them with you. There aren't that many good sources of information about the cars, even the dealerships weren't that good with them in terms of being able to find information.
But, can I ask why you are going for an 840ci? The collectors car was always the 850i or possibly the CSI if you could live with the extra complication. The 840ci was simply a step in the progressive deconstruction of the spirit of the car mainly for the fuel concious lentilists in the mid nineties. Buy the car as it was originally designed before the sales people got involved.
Well, much of that is actually open to debate in my humble opinion:
Whilst it might be accepted that main dealerships may offer poor service on certain models of BMW (I own an E30 M3 and would certainly concur on that statement)...the 'market' won't accept that as an excuse for what has been stated as " No Service History".
"Lost" isn't an excuse...or it's an 'excuse' that will costs £Thousands on one of these cars. That's just the way it works.
"Low residuals" is only true at the "lower end" of the market. The market is increasingly buoyant for E31s with good provenance. Cars with no history do not have "good provenance".
For example, I was offered £20,000 for my car by three different people (which I declined!) based on the low mileage and supporting, cast iron, history of my car. That was even BEFORE I did what I did to the car and spent close to a further £4K on it!
www.bmwclassics.co.uk/840cisport01/index.html
It is true that if one simply want to run one of these cars as a daily driver one can do so and would probably be better served either by a knowledgable specialist or indeed by spending the time to do one's own research. However, if one sees the car differently, as a so called 'collectors item', then the market only understands (read: "Pays for" ) true provenance. And that only comes supported by a proper service history. The car in question apparently has..."No Service History" because it's been "Lost".
Sorry, as far as I would be concerned: "Too bad...not interested...not worth anything to me!"
Finally, accepting the 850CSi apart (which I think we agree is a totally different animal with both its pros and cons)...I think it's, at the very least, highly open to debate that the: "The collectors car was always the 850i"
Little or no straightline performance advantage? A definite performance DISADVANTAGE when the road is anything but straight against an 840Ci Sport? (i.e fundamental balance, suspension, aerodynamics, braking...)
I'm not in anyway saying that an 850i is a bad car in comparison...but it would take something 'exceptional' to make me look at one over an 840Ci Sport. I think my position is also supported if one does a simple Autotrader search? The general trend will be 850CSi at the top end of your search...840Ci Sports will follow (indeed the very highest priced 8-Series currently for sale is in fact an 840Ci Sport!)...followed by (and some margin behind!) 4.0L 840's and 850's. Thus it would seem that both people who want to 'drive' and people who want to 'collect' are not prepared to pay more for an 850i. I certainly wouldn't!
As further proof...If one frequents, as I do, the U.S 8-Series forums (i.e where the 8-Series was a big seller) one sees that the model they wish that they'd always had (but never got!) was the 840Ci Sport!
I guess it's "horses for courses"...but having had both I rarely look at anything else now.
Edited by derin100 on Wednesday 27th December 22:27
Edited by derin100 on Wednesday 27th December 23:53
Didn't expect you to take that lying down
. I'm afraid performance had little to do with the argument. Any of the eight series would be roundly thrashed by some of the more modern, and certainly more modest BMW cars. But the character of the touring GT was designed for a V12. It was no co-incidence that early road tests pitted the car against V12 fezza's and jag XJ's. BMW didn't change to a V8 powerplant because they thought it was an improvement. Indeed I can't think of a single V12 that every required an engine change because they didn't suffer from the nikasil problem. Although the BMW quoted figures for the eight and twelve were very similar because BMW was trying to sell them as such, when you had owners do their own rolling roads the V12 had a massive constant wall of tourque from zero to top, which is obviously the charctersitic of the V12 over the V8. I believe at the time j clarkson said it was the only car you could stick in sixth and pull away from scratch by pulling your foot straight to the floor. This is certainly evident when you drive both back to back, but horses for courses as you say. I would say this made the 850 a better point to point car. There was no dynamic advantage that the V8 had that I could ever find. The reason you quote for finding more expensive examples of the 840 in the autotrader is simply because you are comparing a younger with an older car, but that doesn't make them better, simply we live in a society where most worship the age of the car before the state of the car.
I can understand your reluctance to get a non history car. If you goal is a paperwork gold standard than I can understand that. But if your goal is the best drivers car for the money then I would completely ignore paperwork history as I said above in favour of the condition of the car. I don't think the two are the same thing, especially in eights for the first reason I gave. Hence I thought I would give the poster the benefit of my experience to counter yours before he bought a paperwork gold 840.
Happy new year.
840 over an 850 everythime for me...V12 engines give me sleepless nights (!)
Ask owner to get a duplicate V5 he can pay DVLA by debit card and it will arrive in 3 or 4 days if the car is already in his name.
Service history.....ask where it has been serviced for the last 6 years.........easy to get history for that....find out which dealer supplied it new, might get some stamps in the book that way.
Replaced engine great news
Finally, how much is an equivalent 2 owner car with FSH,and a V5, how much are you saving??
Ps I think these cars are absolute bargains!
POORCARDEALER said:
840 over an 850 everythime for me...V12 engines give me sleepless nights (!)
Ask owner to get a duplicate V5 he can pay DVLA by debit card and it will arrive in 3 or 4 days if the car is already in his name.
Service history.....ask where it has been serviced for the last 6 years.........easy to get history for that....find out which dealer supplied it new, might get some stamps in the book that way.
Replaced engine great news
Finally, how much is an equivalent 2 owner car with FSH,and a V5, how much are you saving??
Ps I think these cars are absolute bargains!
Don't think a replaced engine is ever great news
. You're assuming you know why it was replaced. P.S. small pointer on the V12. Think of it as two conventional six cylinder in line BMW engines. The sort that BMW really know how to build well. Cos thats what they did in the V12. They didn't bother to build a V12, just bolted two sixes together and completely duplicated all the engine management. Feel better?
Julian64 said:
POORCARDEALER said:
840 over an 850 everythime for me...V12 engines give me sleepless nights (!)
Ask owner to get a duplicate V5 he can pay DVLA by debit card and it will arrive in 3 or 4 days if the car is already in his name.
Service history.....ask where it has been serviced for the last 6 years.........easy to get history for that....find out which dealer supplied it new, might get some stamps in the book that way.
Replaced engine great news
Finally, how much is an equivalent 2 owner car with FSH,and a V5, how much are you saving??
Ps I think these cars are absolute bargains!
Don't think a replaced engine is ever great news
. You're assuming you know why it was replaced. P.S. small pointer on the V12. Think of it as two conventional six cylinder in line BMW engines. The sort that BMW really know how to build well. Cos thats what they did in the V12. They didn't bother to build a V12, just bolted two sixes together and completely duplicated all the engine management. Feel better?
A brand new engine, with zero miles isnt good news, it is in my book!!!I have had several 850s and had one that had a droppped valve............£4500 to sort...I will have a mere 8 cylinders thanks!
Edited by POORCARDEALER on Thursday 28th December 09:41
Edited by POORCARDEALER on Thursday 28th December 09:43
I take your points Julian...that's why I genuinely meant it when said it's "open to debate". Opinions are clearly divided and that's fair enough. Given the choice Poorcardealer and I would go for an 840; you prefer the 850. Both are very good cars so no problem.
If I came across a really good low mileage 850 I'd still consider it.
These cars are absolute bargains...at the moment! BUT I've seen the market begin to change over the last two years. It is becoming increasingly polarised. There are, at the moment, still a lot of good cars occupying the middle-ground pricewise but as time goes by it seems that the really good, low mileage examples are becoming more and more expensive whilst any that are 'doggy' (or indeed 'dodgy'!) have plummeted to bargain basement levels? This sort of thing always seems to happen?
If I came across a really good low mileage 850 I'd still consider it.
These cars are absolute bargains...at the moment! BUT I've seen the market begin to change over the last two years. It is becoming increasingly polarised. There are, at the moment, still a lot of good cars occupying the middle-ground pricewise but as time goes by it seems that the really good, low mileage examples are becoming more and more expensive whilst any that are 'doggy' (or indeed 'dodgy'!) have plummeted to bargain basement levels? This sort of thing always seems to happen?
Edited by derin100 on Thursday 28th December 10:32
derin100 said:
I take your points Julian...that's why I genuinely meant it when said it's "open to debate". Opinions are clearly divided and that's fair enough. Given the choice Poorcardealer and I would go for an 840; you prefer the 850. Both are very good cars so no problem.
If I came across a really good low mileage 850 I did still consider it.
These cars are absolute bargains...at the moment! BUT I've seen the market begin to change over the last two years. It is becoming increasingly polarised. There are, at the moment, still a lot of good cars occupying the middle-ground pricewise but as time goes by it seems that the really good, low mileage examples are becoming more and more expensive whilst any that are 'doggy' (or indeed 'dodgy'!) have plummeted to bargain basement levels? This sort of thing always seems to happen?
If I came across a really good low mileage 850 I did still consider it.
These cars are absolute bargains...at the moment! BUT I've seen the market begin to change over the last two years. It is becoming increasingly polarised. There are, at the moment, still a lot of good cars occupying the middle-ground pricewise but as time goes by it seems that the really good, low mileage examples are becoming more and more expensive whilst any that are 'doggy' (or indeed 'dodgy'!) have plummeted to bargain basement levels? This sort of thing always seems to happen?
Yep, you and I will probably only agree about how georgeous they look. Still if there were more people like us around maybe BMW wouldn't be in the aesthetic void they currently occupy.
I honestly believe that the eight series was the most beautiful shape of any car ever produced.
derin100 said:
I take your points Julian...that's why I genuinely meant it when said it's "open to debate". Opinions are clearly divided and that's fair enough. Given the choice Poorcardealer and I would go for an 840; you prefer the 850. Both are very good cars so no problem.
If I came across a really good low mileage 850 I'd still consider it.
These cars are absolute bargains...at the moment! BUT I've seen the market begin to change over the last two years. It is becoming increasingly polarised. There are, at the moment, still a lot of good cars occupying the middle-ground pricewise but as time goes by it seems that the really good, low mileage examples are becoming more and more expensive whilst any that are 'doggy' (or indeed 'dodgy'!) have plummeted to bargain basement levels? This sort of thing always seems to happen?
The dogs will be worth more to break, if they arnt already??
If I came across a really good low mileage 850 I'd still consider it.
These cars are absolute bargains...at the moment! BUT I've seen the market begin to change over the last two years. It is becoming increasingly polarised. There are, at the moment, still a lot of good cars occupying the middle-ground pricewise but as time goes by it seems that the really good, low mileage examples are becoming more and more expensive whilst any that are 'doggy' (or indeed 'dodgy'!) have plummeted to bargain basement levels? This sort of thing always seems to happen?
The dogs will be worth more to break, if they arnt already??
Edited by derin100 on Thursday 28th December 10:32
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