Accurate or a load of old waffle? Worrying!
Discussion
I've just spoken to a BMW dealer regarding a CSL.
The car was well overpriced and he was trying to justify it by saying it hadn't been tracked.
I asked how he could be 100% sure about this and he said he couldn't (
) but he knew that the launch control had been used less than 3 times. He then said 'obviously that's important because if it's been used more than 3 times, it invalidates the warranty' 
Is that right???? If so I have two questions.
1) as a private buyer, how do you know if the launch control HAS been used more than 3 times?
2) How are we (the public) supposed to know about things like this?
IS this utter bollox or crap crap BMW terms and conditions. Either way it's putting me off buying another BMW full stop.
The car was well overpriced and he was trying to justify it by saying it hadn't been tracked.
I asked how he could be 100% sure about this and he said he couldn't (
) but he knew that the launch control had been used less than 3 times. He then said 'obviously that's important because if it's been used more than 3 times, it invalidates the warranty' Is that right???? If so I have two questions. 1) as a private buyer, how do you know if the launch control HAS been used more than 3 times?
2) How are we (the public) supposed to know about things like this?
IS this utter bollox or crap crap BMW terms and conditions. Either way it's putting me off buying another BMW full stop.
Just found the thread I read a few years back:
http://forums.bimmerforums.com/forum/
Looks like it's conjecture though as they have no hard evidence.
Zod?
http://forums.bimmerforums.com/forum/
Looks like it's conjecture though as they have no hard evidence.
Zod?
There is no limit as such.
If you take your csl in and ask for a say new clutch under warrenty then they will connect it up to the computer and send the data to BMW technical who can tell the number of launches done (the dealer cannot do it in house so I'd question how he knows it has done less than 3). If your car has done loads of launches then they'll probably think twice about renewing the clutch for free.
Simple really
If you take your csl in and ask for a say new clutch under warrenty then they will connect it up to the computer and send the data to BMW technical who can tell the number of launches done (the dealer cannot do it in house so I'd question how he knows it has done less than 3). If your car has done loads of launches then they'll probably think twice about renewing the clutch for free.
Simple really
m12_nathan said:
There is no limit as such.
If you take your csl in and ask for a say new clutch under warrenty then they will connect it up to the computer and send the data to BMW technical who can tell the number of launches done (the dealer cannot do it in house so I'd question how he knows it has done less than 3). If your car has done loads of launches then they'll probably think twice about renewing the clutch for free.
Simple really
If you take your csl in and ask for a say new clutch under warrenty then they will connect it up to the computer and send the data to BMW technical who can tell the number of launches done (the dealer cannot do it in house so I'd question how he knows it has done less than 3). If your car has done loads of launches then they'll probably think twice about renewing the clutch for free.
Simple really
Not really. I'd need specifics in order to trust the warranty. What a complete sham.
I've never used the LC in my CSL, but I did just before I sold my first M3 and it was a right hoot. A great thing to do in 'someone' elses car...
As for sham or not. I would say not. There's no numerical limit, but if a manufacturer has the ability to check the systems in the car then can you blame them for using it as evidence of how a car has been treated? I seem to remember the same discussion on the Porsche forums when we discussed how Porsche check the engine ECU to see if the rev-limiter has been buzzed at any time, then if some engine work was required they would take that into account.
I have also heard about some SMG equipped M3s which had recorded 'dozens' of LC actions in the space of a few days. There is a warning in the owners handbook that this can be very wearing on the car, so if someone is foolish enough to ignore this advice then more fool them. If you had seen LC in action you would probably understand that there's no way any manufacturer could indemnify owners against the detrimental effects of using it frequently. I just don't see how it would be possible to build the clutch/flywheel/differential/driveshafts etc to take that kind of punishment.
As for sham or not. I would say not. There's no numerical limit, but if a manufacturer has the ability to check the systems in the car then can you blame them for using it as evidence of how a car has been treated? I seem to remember the same discussion on the Porsche forums when we discussed how Porsche check the engine ECU to see if the rev-limiter has been buzzed at any time, then if some engine work was required they would take that into account.
I have also heard about some SMG equipped M3s which had recorded 'dozens' of LC actions in the space of a few days. There is a warning in the owners handbook that this can be very wearing on the car, so if someone is foolish enough to ignore this advice then more fool them. If you had seen LC in action you would probably understand that there's no way any manufacturer could indemnify owners against the detrimental effects of using it frequently. I just don't see how it would be possible to build the clutch/flywheel/differential/driveshafts etc to take that kind of punishment.
My understanding is that there is no limit but warrenty claims on cartain parts might be declined if they think you've abused the car. The handbook mentions nothing about any limitations of use so they'd be on dodgy ground anyway IMO.
Can I suggest you ring Murketts BMW and ask to speak to the ever helpful Andy in the service department and get the low down on it from him, he'll be able to tell you how it all works (and they often have CSLs for sale at decent prices and are the only BMW dealer I've been to that knows about the CSL in any detail).
Also ask Andy if the in house diags can tell you the number of launches, I don't believe it can in which case the original dealer might be lying.
I've done a few launch controls on each clutch I've had and had no problems with claims for new ones (2x clutch, 2x flywheel and 1xSMG ECU so far).
Can I suggest you ring Murketts BMW and ask to speak to the ever helpful Andy in the service department and get the low down on it from him, he'll be able to tell you how it all works (and they often have CSLs for sale at decent prices and are the only BMW dealer I've been to that knows about the CSL in any detail).
Also ask Andy if the in house diags can tell you the number of launches, I don't believe it can in which case the original dealer might be lying.
I've done a few launch controls on each clutch I've had and had no problems with claims for new ones (2x clutch, 2x flywheel and 1xSMG ECU so far).
m12_nathan said:
I've done a few launch controls on each clutch I've had and had no problems with claims for new ones (2x clutch, 2x flywheel and 1xSMG ECU so far).
If you don't mind me asking, how long have you had the car and how many miles have you put on it? That sounds like a fair bit of wear going on there.
18k in 18 months, 16 track days, 3 weekends at the 'ring.
Not damage to either clutch when they were removed but I had the software issue where it feels like the clutch is slurring (but obviously can't be as the clutches they remove are fine to look at). New ecu, clutch and flywheel have just gone in and the gear changes are awesome now, they seem to think this latest software version has it sorted at long last. Fingers crossed.
Not damage to either clutch when they were removed but I had the software issue where it feels like the clutch is slurring (but obviously can't be as the clutches they remove are fine to look at). New ecu, clutch and flywheel have just gone in and the gear changes are awesome now, they seem to think this latest software version has it sorted at long last. Fingers crossed.
Zod's source is like most of us, we have (or still do) own a CSL and have spoken about the topic with dealers and BMW sources over the years.
It's all about abuse, if you over use it when clearly the handbook warns against doing so, then this may be perceived as an abuse and lack of care. With more and more systems on cars logging data to allow more accurate diagnosis of problems, this will only become more prevalent in future.
It's all about abuse, if you over use it when clearly the handbook warns against doing so, then this may be perceived as an abuse and lack of care. With more and more systems on cars logging data to allow more accurate diagnosis of problems, this will only become more prevalent in future.
DoctorD said:
Zod's source is like most of us, we have (or still do) own a CSL and have spoken about the topic with dealers and BMW sources over the years.
It's all about abuse, if you over use it when clearly the handbook warns against doing so, then this may be perceived as an abuse and lack of care. With more and more systems on cars logging data to allow more accurate diagnosis of problems, this will only become more prevalent in future.
It's all about abuse, if you over use it when clearly the handbook warns against doing so, then this may be perceived as an abuse and lack of care. With more and more systems on cars logging data to allow more accurate diagnosis of problems, this will only become more prevalent in future.
Fair enough - the reason I asked for a source was that I'd been categorically told by a BMW salesman (granted he may not now his arse from his elbow) that 3 launches invalidates the warranty. If you/he has something concrete to counter this I'd love to hear it as I'd really like a CSL.
Carrera2 said:
DoctorD said:
Zod's source is like most of us, we have (or still do) own a CSL and have spoken about the topic with dealers and BMW sources over the years.
It's all about abuse, if you over use it when clearly the handbook warns against doing so, then this may be perceived as an abuse and lack of care. With more and more systems on cars logging data to allow more accurate diagnosis of problems, this will only become more prevalent in future.
It's all about abuse, if you over use it when clearly the handbook warns against doing so, then this may be perceived as an abuse and lack of care. With more and more systems on cars logging data to allow more accurate diagnosis of problems, this will only become more prevalent in future.
Fair enough - the reason I asked for a source was that I'd been categorically told by a BMW salesman (granted he may not now his arse from his elbow) that 3 launches invalidates the warranty. If you/he has something concrete to counter this I'd love to hear it as I'd really like a CSL.
BMW would not have a leg to stand on from a legal poit of view if they refused a warranty claim because a documented feature had been used. If you used it several times per day, they could probably deny the claim for abuse, but they could do the same if you spent your day doing donuts and burnt out the diff.
Your best bet is to speak with a dealer who has experience of the CSL. You will not know who to talk to, because of course you are new to the subject.
A short history lesson; there's a dedicated forum to M3 and CSL ownership called BM3W, which had at one time up to 60% of all UK CSL owners registered upon it. I wrote a buying guide which is published on BM3W and then wrote the Buying Guide that was published in EVO just over a year ago. This was also added into a buying guide for CSLs published in Total BMW last month. Within the community of owners we established on BM3W we went on to research and develop the major modifications that are now commonplace on CSLs (namely the AP Brake upgrade, exhaust upgrade and revised suspension aligment settings). These were first implemented and perfected by the BMW dealership "Murketts of Huntingdon" and over time I would estimate that Murketts have worked on around 10% of all UK CSLs, so therefore many of the warranty claims and PUMA cases have initiated from Murketts. So as Nathan suggests above, it would be a good idea to give Andy Pressland (Senior Service Advisor) at Murketts a call and chat it through with him.
The problem with calling BMW is that you will only reach a customer service advisor and unfortunately they have zero experience of the product and only refer to the published information they are provided with. I can pretty much guarantee that you will not find an answer to your question from them. The only BMW representatives who can provide an answer are the BMW Master Technicians or Regional Technical Managers. Unfortunately you cannot speak with them directly since they only speak with the dealers, who they visit and review warranty issues on a monthly basis. Hence we're back to the suggestion that you contact an 'experienced' BMW dealer who is in regular contact with the BMW Technical Representatives and therefore has experience of the issue you are concerned with.
That's why we suggest that you give Murketts a quick call..
A short history lesson; there's a dedicated forum to M3 and CSL ownership called BM3W, which had at one time up to 60% of all UK CSL owners registered upon it. I wrote a buying guide which is published on BM3W and then wrote the Buying Guide that was published in EVO just over a year ago. This was also added into a buying guide for CSLs published in Total BMW last month. Within the community of owners we established on BM3W we went on to research and develop the major modifications that are now commonplace on CSLs (namely the AP Brake upgrade, exhaust upgrade and revised suspension aligment settings). These were first implemented and perfected by the BMW dealership "Murketts of Huntingdon" and over time I would estimate that Murketts have worked on around 10% of all UK CSLs, so therefore many of the warranty claims and PUMA cases have initiated from Murketts. So as Nathan suggests above, it would be a good idea to give Andy Pressland (Senior Service Advisor) at Murketts a call and chat it through with him.
The problem with calling BMW is that you will only reach a customer service advisor and unfortunately they have zero experience of the product and only refer to the published information they are provided with. I can pretty much guarantee that you will not find an answer to your question from them. The only BMW representatives who can provide an answer are the BMW Master Technicians or Regional Technical Managers. Unfortunately you cannot speak with them directly since they only speak with the dealers, who they visit and review warranty issues on a monthly basis. Hence we're back to the suggestion that you contact an 'experienced' BMW dealer who is in regular contact with the BMW Technical Representatives and therefore has experience of the issue you are concerned with.
That's why we suggest that you give Murketts a quick call..
DoctorD said:
The only BMW representatives who can provide an answer are the BMW Master Technicians or Regional Technical Managers. Unfortunately you cannot speak with them directly since they only speak with the dealers, who they visit and review warranty issues on a monthly basis.
Just to add another complication - the master technician at my local dealer had only ever dealt with one other CSL when I went with some technical issues and was, by his own admission, a bit wet behind the ears regarding CSLs.
Zod said:
Carrera2 said:
DoctorD said:
Zod's source is like most of us, we have (or still do) own a CSL and have spoken about the topic with dealers and BMW sources over the years.
It's all about abuse, if you over use it when clearly the handbook warns against doing so, then this may be perceived as an abuse and lack of care. With more and more systems on cars logging data to allow more accurate diagnosis of problems, this will only become more prevalent in future.
It's all about abuse, if you over use it when clearly the handbook warns against doing so, then this may be perceived as an abuse and lack of care. With more and more systems on cars logging data to allow more accurate diagnosis of problems, this will only become more prevalent in future.
Fair enough - the reason I asked for a source was that I'd been categorically told by a BMW salesman (granted he may not now his arse from his elbow) that 3 launches invalidates the warranty. If you/he has something concrete to counter this I'd love to hear it as I'd really like a CSL.
BMW would not have a leg to stand on from a legal poit of view if they refused a warranty claim because a documented feature had been used. If you used it several times per day, they could probably deny the claim for abuse, but they could do the same if you spent your day doing donuts and burnt out the diff.
True. The salesman that dealt with me said it had a sport button that released an extra 50 bhp
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