As an M5 driver, would you give up ABS, DSC and airbags?
Discussion
I've just started a debate on my home forum (TVR Chimaeras) on safety.
In the TVR world, we don't get the safety features that modern cars like M5s get.
As a driver of a performance car (such as the M5), would you be happy to give up all the safety features? Or do you take the stance of "Rather have them than not - even if I don't use them!"
Dav
In the TVR world, we don't get the safety features that modern cars like M5s get.
As a driver of a performance car (such as the M5), would you be happy to give up all the safety features? Or do you take the stance of "Rather have them than not - even if I don't use them!"
Dav
No I would not give up or take off the safety features. Especially in a car which is everyday transport. Having said that, my hoon/fun car has even more safety features. Of course lack of safety features would not put me off of owning a Caterham or an Atom. All a bit confusing really.
DAZ
>> Edited by dazren on Friday 3rd March 11:16
DAZ
>> Edited by dazren on Friday 3rd March 11:16
I've got an older M5 - it only has a driver's airbag and ABS - but I'm happy to drive cars with no airbag/abs/dsc/whatever.
My last car (uprated Corrado VR6) had neither of these and that was fine on road and track.
I don't feel less safe without them as I feel these 'safety aids' lull modern drivers into a false sense of security.
A lot of new drivers assume that traction control, stability control, abs, etc will get them out of trouble if they get into it - a lot of the trouble they get into could be avoided by better observation, better anticipation and better concentration.
My last car (uprated Corrado VR6) had neither of these and that was fine on road and track.
I don't feel less safe without them as I feel these 'safety aids' lull modern drivers into a false sense of security.
A lot of new drivers assume that traction control, stability control, abs, etc will get them out of trouble if they get into it - a lot of the trouble they get into could be avoided by better observation, better anticipation and better concentration.
mmm-five said:
I've got an older M5 - it only has a driver's airbag and ABS - but I'm happy to drive cars with no airbag/abs/dsc/whatever.
My last car (uprated Corrado VR6) had neither of these and that was fine on road and track.
I don't feel less safe without them as I feel these 'safety aids' lull modern drivers into a false sense of security.
A lot of new drivers assume that traction control, stability control, abs, etc will get them out of trouble if they get into it - a lot of the trouble they get into could be avoided by better observation, better anticipation and better concentration.
Good points. Maybe the solution is for everyone to learn on cars with no aids (like many of us have) and not be reliant on driver aids. But still, would you have the safety aids?
Zod said:
No. I can switch off traction control whenever I want.
I suspect that TVR would fit traction control and ABS if it could afford to do so financially. Ferrari, Lamborghini and Porsche all do.
I agree. Big engine - light body - splendid performance. Safety features viewed as expensive and optional!
Good question -
I regularly turn off DSC, at least when its dry, I haven't tried it in the winter yet! Airbags I don't care about (to be honest I don't even think about them). ABS, hmmmm, if its a very unobtrusive system, then I'd have to say keep it, cos my cadence braking is pants.
I regularly turn off DSC, at least when its dry, I haven't tried it in the winter yet! Airbags I don't care about (to be honest I don't even think about them). ABS, hmmmm, if its a very unobtrusive system, then I'd have to say keep it, cos my cadence braking is pants.
On the E39 version the standard DSC system is way too intrusive but I concede it is probably a good idea during inclement weather (i.e. 90% of the time!)
Again, in the dry, it gets deleted if I'm on a hoon, getaways are far smoother and satisfying and low speed oversteer practice something to savour rather than fear, it really is 'an exploitable chassis.'
And I couldn't drive out of a rice pudding.
Again, in the dry, it gets deleted if I'm on a hoon, getaways are far smoother and satisfying and low speed oversteer practice something to savour rather than fear, it really is 'an exploitable chassis.'
And I couldn't drive out of a rice pudding.
DavHughes said:Having hit the armco at the Nordschleife, I'm a big fan of airbags!
No. I can switch off traction control whenever I want.
I suspect that TVR would fit traction control and ABS if it could afford to do so financially. Ferrari, Lamborghini and Porsche all do.
I agree. Big engine - light body - splendid performance. Safety features viewed as expensive and optional!
DavHughes said:
I've got an older M5 - it only has a driver's airbag and ABS - but I'm happy to drive cars with no airbag/abs/dsc/whatever.
My last car (uprated Corrado VR6) had neither of these and that was fine on road and track.
I don't feel less safe without them as I feel these 'safety aids' lull modern drivers into a false sense of security.
A lot of new drivers assume that traction control, stability control, abs, etc will get them out of trouble if they get into it - a lot of the trouble they get into could be avoided by better observation, better anticipation and better concentration.
Good points. Maybe the solution is for everyone to learn on cars with no aids (like many of us have) and not be reliant on driver aids. But still, would you have the safety aids?
I've tried it on a test day - I did a lap with the seatbelt on and the abs on - then did a lap with both off. I was consistently slower without the aids, as I felt less secure - I kept thinking "I know I'm not going to hit anything, but...".
I think safety devices should be installed, but only as a very lest resort for when things have gone wrong.
I'd prefer not to have these devices, but would concentrate more on making the roads safer themselves, by removing/redesigning obstacles, keeping pedestrians & vehicle areas completely separate, ensuring drivers' skills are constantly upgraded/enhanced as new technology becomes available (how many drivers still just stamp on the brakes when they see someone pull out, instead of braking and manoeuvring?).
I agree with the other guys, ABS is a godsend when you have the foot dexterity of an elephant, and cadence braking would be something that comes to mind more slowly than the impending object.
The DSC in the M5 is truly nannying even in the dry. It's a great car to drive without it on due to the long chassis length and good feel but on a normal short drive to work I don't switch it off. However on a proper drive it gets switched off regularly because it cuts in so much.
It's back to the point you made above, it's a 4/5 seater grandad car on steroids, not a truly precise tool like a TVR, Porsche, Lotus or Noble. Those aids are great because sometimes you just settle back and watch countries disappear effortlessly without having to think too much....
The DSC in the M5 is truly nannying even in the dry. It's a great car to drive without it on due to the long chassis length and good feel but on a normal short drive to work I don't switch it off. However on a proper drive it gets switched off regularly because it cuts in so much.
It's back to the point you made above, it's a 4/5 seater grandad car on steroids, not a truly precise tool like a TVR, Porsche, Lotus or Noble. Those aids are great because sometimes you just settle back and watch countries disappear effortlessly without having to think too much....
Some great points being made here.
I went from 2 TVRs, via a couple of interims, to an E39 M5.
It comes down to a few things:
1. What are the advantages of not having traction control, ABS and a bunch of airbags? Ok, you save a bit of weight, but as you are sliding headlong across the dual carriageway after porking the braking point into your favourite roundabout, I'm sure you would trade any number of kilos for an airbag and some ABS.
2. The (crap) pride of driving a car with no driver aids. If you drive so well that you never need airbags or ABS, then they will never limit your driving. Anyone who says that, at the moment-critique, they can stop their car quicker without ABS is talking rubbish. When that tractor pulls out, 99.9% of us will do the exact same thing. Stand on the middle pedal and see how far through the Lord's prayer we can get.
3. Price. Take ABS, for example. There are plently of ABS systems available in the parts bins for companies like TVR to fit. Would ABS really cost more than a smart reflex paint-job? Unlikely. Would it have stopped me parking my Griffith on a roundabout? Probably.
On a car you want to use every day, I see no downsides to a system that stops you stamping RVT on your forehead as you hit the car that pulls out of the junction without warning. All IMHO, of course.
>> Edited by NoisyGriff on Sunday 5th March 10:56
I went from 2 TVRs, via a couple of interims, to an E39 M5.
It comes down to a few things:
1. What are the advantages of not having traction control, ABS and a bunch of airbags? Ok, you save a bit of weight, but as you are sliding headlong across the dual carriageway after porking the braking point into your favourite roundabout, I'm sure you would trade any number of kilos for an airbag and some ABS.
2. The (crap) pride of driving a car with no driver aids. If you drive so well that you never need airbags or ABS, then they will never limit your driving. Anyone who says that, at the moment-critique, they can stop their car quicker without ABS is talking rubbish. When that tractor pulls out, 99.9% of us will do the exact same thing. Stand on the middle pedal and see how far through the Lord's prayer we can get.
3. Price. Take ABS, for example. There are plently of ABS systems available in the parts bins for companies like TVR to fit. Would ABS really cost more than a smart reflex paint-job? Unlikely. Would it have stopped me parking my Griffith on a roundabout? Probably.
On a car you want to use every day, I see no downsides to a system that stops you stamping RVT on your forehead as you hit the car that pulls out of the junction without warning. All IMHO, of course.
>> Edited by NoisyGriff on Sunday 5th March 10:56
NoisyGriff said:
Some great points being made here.
I went from 2 TVRs, via a couple of interims, to an E39 M5.
It comes down to a few things:
1. What are the advantages of not having traction control, ABS and a bunch of airbags? Ok, you save a bit of weight, but as you are sliding headlong across the dual carriageway after porking the braking point into your favourite roundabout, I'm sure you would trade any number of kilos for an airbag and some ABS.
2. The (crap) pride of driving a car with no driver aids. If you drive so well that you never need airbags or ABS, then they will never limit your driving. Anyone who says that, at the moment-critique, they can stop their car quicker without ABS is talking rubbish. When that tractor pulls out, 99.9% of us will do the exact same thing. Stand on the middle pedal and see how far through the Lord's prayer we can get.
3. Price. Take ABS, for example. There are plently of ABS systems available in the parts bins for companies like TVR to fit. Would ABS really cost more than a smart reflex paint-job? Unlikely. Would it have stopped me parking my Griffith on a roundabout? Probably.
On a car you want to use every day, I see no downsides to a system that stops you stamping RVT on your forehead as you hit the car that pulls out of the junction without warning. All IMHO, of course.
>> Edited by NoisyGriff on Sunday 5th March 10:56
Very good points indeed. Maybe the TVR boys should read it! This is their opinion -
www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?t=248731&f=13&h=0
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