The feelings of power and torque
Discussion
Disregarding which sorts of engine you actually prefer, as we have pretty much done that one to death elsewhere, how exactly would you describe to someone the feeling high bhp, or high torque gives you.
I have just read about a car with 2200 kgs and 360 bhp @ 4400 rpm. Not a particularly good ptw ratio.
It does however churn out a somewhat amazing 630 lbs-ft at 1900-4200 rpm, so what would it feel like to drive?
(It is a VW Phaeton V10 TDI, with chip).
I have just read about a car with 2200 kgs and 360 bhp @ 4400 rpm. Not a particularly good ptw ratio.
It does however churn out a somewhat amazing 630 lbs-ft at 1900-4200 rpm, so what would it feel like to drive?
(It is a VW Phaeton V10 TDI, with chip).
Carbon Black said:
Disregarding which sorts of engine you actually prefer, as we have pretty much done that one to death elsewhere, how exactly would you describe to someone the feeling high bhp, or high torque gives you.
I have just read about a car with 2200 kgs and 360 bhp @ 4400 rpm. Not a particularly good ptw ratio.
It does however churn out a somewhat amazing 630 lbs-ft at 1900-4200 rpm, so what would it feel like to drive?
(It is a VW Phaeton V10 TDI, with chip).
Have a test drive in a V10 touareg (same engine), i did - the torque is bonkers
Carbon Black said:
Disregarding which sorts of engine you actually prefer, as we have pretty much done that one to death elsewhere, how exactly would you describe to someone the feeling high bhp, or high torque gives you.
I have just read about a car with 2200 kgs and 360 bhp @ 4400 rpm. Not a particularly good ptw ratio.
It does however churn out a somewhat amazing 630 lbs-ft at 1900-4200 rpm, so what would it feel like to drive?
(It is a VW Phaeton V10 TDI, with chip).
It is the torque at the wheels that dictates what it feels like, not the flywheel torque
Only way to compare would be to drive 2 cars with different engines but the same gearbox and final drive.
xm5er said:
TBH they feel the same to me, a shove in the back. It always makes me laugh when I read people going on about the diesel vs petrol comparison and how you cant rev a diesel.
SO what, if you cant tell when to change up from the shove in the back then frankly you're a shite driver.
Correct, the close ratio auto 'box, coupled with high power and torque from as little as 1500 rpm, means that 5000 rpm is all you ever need, to charge on rapidly in a 535d, for instance.
8000+ revs is unnecessary.
stuh said:
Disregarding which sorts of engine you actually prefer, as we have pretty much done that one to death elsewhere, how exactly would you describe to someone the feeling high bhp, or high torque gives you.
I have just read about a car with 2200 kgs and 360 bhp @ 4400 rpm. Not a particularly good ptw ratio.
It does however churn out a somewhat amazing 630 lbs-ft at 1900-4200 rpm, so what would it feel like to drive?
(It is a VW Phaeton V10 TDI, with chip).
Have a test drive in a V10 touareg (same engine), i did - the torque is bonkers
And that's BEFORE it is chipped!
i guess a good test would be to drive say a civic type r then a golf tdi 150. both have different benefits. to be honest i slightly prefer the grunty diesel feel (particularly if chipped) for day to day, that's why i like my 330d, but on sunny weekends i take a screaming petrol for a blast to make me laugh. summary imho 75% of the time give me torque.
Carbon Black said:
TBH they feel the same to me, a shove in the back. It always makes me laugh when I read people going on about the diesel vs petrol comparison and how you cant rev a diesel.
SO what, if you cant tell when to change up from the shove in the back then frankly you're a shite driver.
Correct, the close ratio auto 'box, coupled with high power and torque from as little as 1500 rpm, means that 5000 rpm is all you ever need, to charge on rapidly in a 535d, for instance.
8000+ revs is unnecessary.
(Where's that smiley face banging its head on the wall when you need it!) I don't won't to look like the type to go around different forums looking for arguments but pleease! It drives me up the wall hearing people talk about 'performance' diesels! There is no such thing! Diesels are NOT performance engines, even if they have massive torque for a span of 1500rpm putting a 3ltr turbo diesel against a similarly powerful 3ltr petrol turbo would just be a walk in the park for the petrol engine. Having driven a modern 'efficient' 1.7turbo diesel to work for the past 1 1/2years I cannot stand the way you have to work the engine and the gears every time you want to accelerate. Yes you can 'ALMOST' keep up with a n/a 2.0 petrol engine but in doing so you end up stressed, pouring from sweat trying to hit each gear just right to keep it in its rev range, using twice as much fuel from straining the turbo to maximum boost whilst the guy in the 2.0 petrol calmly looks over and laughs at your efforts still in the same gear he started in and with another 3000rpm to spare!
I agree diesels have a purpose they are fantastically economical engines and the excellent torque they produce allows you to drive comfortable at normal speeds in high gears using barely any fuel, but lets not get carried away now.. they're still no match for a petrol turbo in terms of performance or shove in the back quality!
Rant over.
Niffty951 said:
.. they're still no match for a petrol turbo in terms of performance or shove in the back quality!
Undoubtedly.
As for the rest, its a bit daft to say all diesels are crap cos the one I've got is, likewise its daft to say all petrols are great 'cos the one I've got is. They're all different, in day to day ordinary driving my 328 is nippier than my old M5 was, the M5 was a peaky beast that you had to work damned hard to get the best from, and they are both straight 6 petrols.
Niffty951 said:
TBH they feel the same to me, a shove in the back. It always makes me laugh when I read people going on about the diesel vs petrol comparison and how you cant rev a diesel.
SO what, if you cant tell when to change up from the shove in the back then frankly you're a shite driver.
Correct, the close ratio auto 'box, coupled with high power and torque from as little as 1500 rpm, means that 5000 rpm is all you ever need, to charge on rapidly in a 535d, for instance.
8000+ revs is unnecessary.
(Where's that smiley face banging its head on the wall when you need it!) I don't won't to look like the type to go around different forums looking for arguments but pleease! It drives me up the wall hearing people talk about 'performance' diesels! There is no such thing! Diesels are NOT performance engines, even if they have massive torque for a span of 1500rpm putting a 3ltr turbo diesel against a similarly powerful 3ltr petrol turbo would just be a walk in the park for the petrol engine. Having driven a modern 'efficient' 1.7turbo diesel to work for the past 1 1/2years I cannot stand the way you have to work the engine and the gears every time you want to accelerate. Yes you can 'ALMOST' keep up with a n/a 2.0 petrol engine but in doing so you end up stressed, pouring from sweat trying to hit each gear just right to keep it in its rev range, using twice as much fuel from straining the turbo to maximum boost whilst the guy in the 2.0 petrol calmly looks over and laughs at your efforts still in the same gear he started in and with another 3000rpm to spare!
I agree diesels have a purpose they are fantastically economical engines and the excellent torque they produce allows you to drive comfortable at normal speeds in high gears using barely any fuel, but lets not get carried away now.. they're still no match for a petrol turbo in terms of performance or shove in the back quality!
Rant over.
Feel free to bring your mighty 220bhp Porsche along for a dice with my oil burning slug anytime.
There always seems to be some confusion between 'flywheel torque' versus 'torque at the wheels'. A diesel engine by the very nature of the compression process cannot rev as high as a petrol engine and tends to generate its turning force in a narrow range of revs. The gearing therefore is designed to spread this torque out over a wider range of road speeds. Remember torque without revs is nothing. Petrol engines, particularly those with broad torque platforms over a wide rev range, are able to use their gearing to multiply the torque of the engine by using lower gearing. To appreciate the actual torque that you will feel in any car you need to view the shape/size of the torque curve and then the gearing.
I spent some time last Friday driving a tuned Vauxhall Astra VXR, apparently it had around 285bhp from a stage 2 conversion. Unfortunately most of that extra performance occured somewhere between 1000 and 3000 rpm, and there was no sensitivity or feel to the throttle to allow this torque to be used when the driver needed it. So driving it was a frustrating process of wheelspin and more wheelspin. Even driving around a 30mph corner elicited wheelspin because it was producing something like 300lb/ft at just above idle. When I returned the car I gave my feedback. Clealry the torque curve needed reprogramming to shift the torque further up the rev range, either that or the gearing needed to be lengthened to distribute the torque across a more manageable range of revs. But whilst it would appeal to the baseball hat brigade it lacked driveability and therefore wasn't able to make much use of the additional torque.
The same thing is true of a RWD car, torque is great but ideally it should peak mid-way within the rev range in each gear and develop progressively, tailing off slowly. Torque too low down just gets in the way when exiting a corner, much better to acheive peak torque after the corner apex and ideally once the steering is straightened up. To combat this a car needs more traction, which is why a 996TT is so driveable, but without 4WD its a unproductive to have too much torque low down.
I spent some time last Friday driving a tuned Vauxhall Astra VXR, apparently it had around 285bhp from a stage 2 conversion. Unfortunately most of that extra performance occured somewhere between 1000 and 3000 rpm, and there was no sensitivity or feel to the throttle to allow this torque to be used when the driver needed it. So driving it was a frustrating process of wheelspin and more wheelspin. Even driving around a 30mph corner elicited wheelspin because it was producing something like 300lb/ft at just above idle. When I returned the car I gave my feedback. Clealry the torque curve needed reprogramming to shift the torque further up the rev range, either that or the gearing needed to be lengthened to distribute the torque across a more manageable range of revs. But whilst it would appeal to the baseball hat brigade it lacked driveability and therefore wasn't able to make much use of the additional torque.
The same thing is true of a RWD car, torque is great but ideally it should peak mid-way within the rev range in each gear and develop progressively, tailing off slowly. Torque too low down just gets in the way when exiting a corner, much better to acheive peak torque after the corner apex and ideally once the steering is straightened up. To combat this a car needs more traction, which is why a 996TT is so driveable, but without 4WD its a unproductive to have too much torque low down.
Carbon Black said:
Disregarding which sorts of engine you actually prefer, as we have pretty much done that one to death elsewhere, how exactly would you describe to someone the feeling high bhp, or high torque gives you.
I have just read about a car with 2200 kgs and 360 bhp @ 4400 rpm. Not a particularly good ptw ratio.
It does however churn out a somewhat amazing 630 lbs-ft at 1900-4200 rpm, so what would it feel like to drive?
(It is a VW Phaeton V10 TDI, with chip).
So in answer to your question, I like both and prefer not to choose one over the other. Plenty of mid-range torque that goes on and on and on...
Sorry Zod, but just can't resist it.......
330iM Sport 0-60 6.3 secs
330dm Sport 0-60 6.7 secs
however
330iM Sport 50-75mph in 4th 6.6 sec
330dm Sport 50-75mph in 4th 5.0 sec
Never let the facts get in the way of a good story! So which is quicker??
Forgot to add
>> Edited by hunttheshunt on Monday 27th February 17:35
330iM Sport 0-60 6.3 secs
330dm Sport 0-60 6.7 secs
however
330iM Sport 50-75mph in 4th 6.6 sec
330dm Sport 50-75mph in 4th 5.0 sec
Never let the facts get in the way of a good story! So which is quicker??
Forgot to add
>> Edited by hunttheshunt on Monday 27th February 17:35
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