Opinions and advice on E30 M3 - need your help...

[por911t]

I have just sold my beloved Porsche 996 turbo ( 52 plate ) and here , in brief , is my situation . I have been fortunate enough , over the years , to own many outstanding cars such as the 996 / SL55 / RS4 etc . However I just dont have the spare time any more to do justice to cars of this value hence the sale of the 996 - they all spent most of the time relaxing in my garage and not on the road . I have always had a real soft spot for the origional E30 M3 . I realise they are all getting on a bit and there must be many rough ones out there but every so often I see a really nice one for sale and I fancy one from the ' classic ' car point of view plus they cant drop any more in price . What I would be looking for is the 'one in a million ' car - a concourse collectors piece . I realise however this will be very hard to find and I would probably have to pay top dollar for this - but so be it . Your advice and view on the E30 M3 is much apprecaited - Thanks Barry

[barefoot]

Barry

Read this thread that was posted on here recently....

www.pistonheads.co.uk/gassing/topic.asp?t=233589&f=72&h=0

Kev

[sleep envy]

por911t said:

What I would be looking for is the 'one in a million ' car - a concourse collectors piece . I realise however this will be very hard to find and I would probably have to pay top dollar for this - but so be it . Your advice and view on the E30 M3 is much apprecaited - Thanks Barry

Nice choice - I had a sport evo before I was seduced by 993's, and I still wish I had it.

If you move quickly there's a red sport evo for around £24k which is mega money but it's a low mileage car.

Things to look out for are rust especially on rear arches, windscreen scuttle and at the bottom of the front wheel arches/outer edges of foot wells (unlikely on a car like this).

Cam chain tensioners can be noisy on high mileage cars until oil pressure has built up. Cheap fix is to install an e36 pretensioner. Don't listen to rubbish stories perpetuated by south coast independents saying they need new cam chains at 100k - they're drumming up needless work for themselves to the tune of £2k. I've never heard of a single car whose teeth have jumped and caused the valves to say hello to the pistons.

To maintain value cars should be standard or have mods which can be put back to standard. Aftermarket exhausts are a waste of money as they all pretty much reduce power. The original exhaust was fairly efficient in the first place and they're double skinned stainless steel so can be welded if necessary. A new OEM is VERY expensive - £1,500 + VAT but it can be patched as mentioned.

You can tune the cars to give more power by running Motec (eliminating the AFM which is the biggest restriction) and changing the cams but you'll be spending lots of money for miniscule gains - the S14 is a fairly stressed engine as it is and it's probably at it's limit in terms of giving up more power. I'd also doubt that you find a 2.5 engine which puts out anywhere near the claimed 235 bhp, 220/225 bhp is about the norm. 2.3 engines range from a quoted output from 190 - 225 bhp. Take these figures with a pinch of salt. Most cars are now 15 years old so a few ponies will have been put out to pasture.

Beware though, an E30 isn't a car which you'll win many or any traffic light GPs. 0-60 is probably in the late sixes and in gear times aren't that spectacular based on what current hot hatches can turn out. Where the secret lies with these cars is the handling - in terms of RWD fun I doubt anything this side of a Caterham is anywhere near as much fun. To give you an idea of my 3 year ownership I went through 3 sets of rear tyres without having to look at the brakes

>> Edited by sleep envy on Monday 23 January 22:54

[stevesingo]

I currently have a Sport Evo and I would reccommend an E30 M3 to anyone, especially as a second car. In the 15 months and 9000 everyday miles of it has been almost 100% reliable (cracked subframe from a speed hump) and great fun. Economy ranges from 32ish on a rune to 24ish around town and sub 20's for fun. I would admit that they need a bit more TLC than your more modern stuff, but that is part of the attraction for me as I do all my own maintanence. Mine has the Motec engine managment kit, a Milltek exhaust (regarded at the only aftermarket exhaust by thoses in the know) and showed 191BHP@wheels on Powerstations rollers. Performance wise it is certainly faster than the Civic Type R it replaced and I have held a Mitsubishi Evo9 260 up to 125. Not bad for 15yr old 100K mile car! Handling is great! Plentry of grip, steering feel and easily controlled rear out fun. Brakes could do with an uprated pad though.

Best of luck

Steve

[por911t]

Thanks a million Steve , Kev and ' Sleep Envy ' - I am generally very clued up on cars but you cant beat some impartial advice from current / past owners . I had a look the Smallbone website and the 91 H EVO model is EXACTLY what I am after . A minter then mint , low mileage , late example which that appears to be . In my opionion a car of that outstanding condition has to be treasured all the more purely because it has survived this length of time in careful hands it would be crime to ruin it now . I apprecaite that the M3 will be no 996 turbo in terms of speed but love its modern classic status and looks . I have also previously owned a 325 Schnitzer coupe which I really liked . I loved my 996 turbo as it was in truly outstanding condition as many of them are but this M3 at Smallbone seems to be a real find and I would probably apprecaite this car the same , if not more than the 996 , because it is just such a find - I shall give them a call . Thanks a million guys - Barry ( Glasgow ) Ps dont worry the distance isnt a problem

[stevesingo]

Let us know how you get on. If you go to look at it let us know when, I might join you as you have to pass me on the way there.

Steve

[por911t]

I'll keep in touch - it is mega money but if you want the best of anything you need to pay for it and this example is no different ( this is a strange concept coming from a scotsman !! )I'll let you know how I get on . Cheers again , Barry

[jamesrose]

Hello,

I have owned a late spec 215bhp M3 for about 3 years now.

Don't discount the standard M3 over the Sport Evo, as for sensible money you can get a very good car.

For under 10K you can get an EVO 2 which has, arguably the best S14 engine there is.

All M3s are great daily drivable cars that will provide you with a lot more fun than you can get for the equivalent money in a modern car...

Good luck the hunt - maybe get in contact with the BMW Car Club as they usually know for some good cars for sale...

Cheers
James

[stevesingo]

jamesrose said:

Hello, I have owned a late spec 215bhp M3 for about 3 years now. Don't discount the standard M3 over the Sport Evo, as for sensible money you can get a very good car. For under 10K you can get an EVO 2 which has, arguably the best S14 engine there is. Good luck the hunt - maybe get in contact with the BMW Car Club as they usually know for some good cars for sale... Cheers James

Aggreed!!

Steve

[sleep envy]

por911t said:

Thanks a million Steve , Kev and ' Sleep Envy '... ....I had a look the Smallbone website and the 91 H EVO model is EXACTLY what I am after

No problem - I'll take my commission in Optimax tokens

[chippy17]

por911t said:

Thanks a million Steve , Kev and ' Sleep Envy ' - I am generally very clued up on cars but you cant beat some impartial advice from current / past owners . I had a look the Smallbone website and the 91 H EVO model is EXACTLY what I am after . A minter then mint , low mileage , late example which that appears to be . In my opionion a car of that outstanding condition has to be treasured all the more purely because it has survived this length of time in careful hands it would be crime to ruin it now . I apprecaite that the M3 will be no 996 turbo in terms of speed but love its modern classic status and looks . I have also previously owned a 325 Schnitzer coupe which I really liked . I loved my 996 turbo as it was in truly outstanding condition as many of them are but this M3 at Smallbone seems to be a real find and I would probably apprecaite this car the same , if not more than the 996 , because it is just such a find - I shall give them a call . Thanks a million guys - Barry ( Glasgow ) Ps dont worry the distance isnt a problem

If this helps this dealer has been trying to sell this car for some time, I think a haggle may be on the cards. I have heard it is truly what it claims to be.

I also know of a black Sport Evo with 80K miles for sale at a company called Vodtek I think he has it up for approx £16k, but he (Chris Wadsley) is well known as a purveyor of lovely M3s, he sold a Sport Evo last year for £38k (rumour), the story was it had -3kms on it!!! Reason being they wind the clock back so that it reads zero when it gets to the dealer!! I think he is based in Norfolk somewhere, as is German Cars (Kings Lynn) another M3 nut, I believe he has a silver Evo 11 for sale (£10K) but do not know details.

IMO never put an E36 tensioner on as it puts too much stress on the guides etc just put a new E30 tensioner on. The Milltek exhaust is certainly one of the best but not the only one, for example the Supersprint system is OE spec and very good.
I recently sold my M3 Cecotto after 4 years of ownership (missing it like mad), she had 95k miles on the clock and the new owner put it on a rolling road and it was producing the same power and more torque than when it was new, so if set up right they are more than capable of producing the claimed power outputs.

[stevesingo]

My car came from Chris Wadsley at Vodtek, top bloke. He had threeSportEvo's in at the time one of which had 47000 on the clock in red. Anyway the number is 01553810467.

Steve

[shoestring7]

There's a friendly bunch of E30 M3 enthusiasts over here: www.bmwcarclubforum.co.uk (look for the M Power forum).

There's always a couple of folks looking for Evo Sports, but the guys on the forum know most that come onto the market. One approach that works is to gently ask any owners if they're looking to move their cars on.

Of course, you could always build a Jagermeister rep with a 400+bhp Corvette engine...

SS7

[por911t]

Thanks again guys - your knowledge and enthusiasm is outstanding and I apprecaite you time filling me in on the finer points of the E30 M3 - one last question - what other variants are there - I read about EVO , EVO SPORT , EUROPAMEISTER(?) , Celcetto(?) etc etc - this seems to be the only point that I am still unsure of . What models were official UK cars - cheers

[stevesingo]

Barry, Some links for you

www.bimmers.com/m3/spotter/specials.html#europa

www.s14.net/specplus/comparisons.html

I'm sure there is more info to add by others.

Steve

[stevesingo]

And anothe two

www.m3-motorsport.demon.co.uk/m3hist.htm

www.bmwcarclubgb.co.uk/rm/mpower.asp

Steve

[sleep envy]

por911t said:

one last question - what other variants are there - I read about EVO , EVO SPORT , EUROPAMEISTER(?) , Celcetto(?) etc etc - this seems to be the only point that I am still unsure of . What models were official UK cars - cheers

IIRC all models were available through the dealer network except the Cecotto (same spec as Ravaglia just different name for UK market, maybe vice versa). Trying to find an official UK car will severly limit choice.

Models that I remember (there could be more) are;

std car without cat
std car with cat
Evo
Evo II
Cecotto (europe only car)
Ravaglia (UK only car)
Sport Evo (2.5 engine)
Europameister (std car wih different wheels and interior only - not worth any extra money IMHO)

Std, low milage cars are going up in value. I bought my sport evo in 2000, kept it for 3 years, did nearly 30k kms and sold it for £3.5k profit. Better than putting money in the bank

[chippy17]

sleep envy said:

por911t said: one last question - what other variants are there - I read about EVO , EVO SPORT , EUROPAMEISTER(?) , Celcetto(?) etc etc - this seems to be the only point that I am still unsure of . What models were official UK cars - cheers IIRC all models were available through the dealer network except the Cecotto (same spec as Ravaglia just different name for UK market, maybe vice versa). Trying to find an official UK car will severly limit choice. Models that I remember (there could be more) are; std car without cat std car with cat Evo Evo II Cecotto (europe only car) Ravaglia (UK only car) Sport Evo (2.5 engine) Europameister (std car wih different wheels and interior only - not worth any extra money IMHO) Std, low milage cars are going up in value. I bought my sport evo in 2000, kept it for 3 years, did nearly 30k kms and sold it for £3.5k profit. Better than putting money in the bank

The only other difference that I can think of is the standard car has a power increase from 200bhp to 215bhp, I think, in 1990. Of course one can then go into the myriad little changes made to aerodynamics and wheels etc, but it frankly it adds up to very little on the road. IMO the pic of the bunch is either an Evo II or Sport Evo, although the Cecotto and Revaglia are basically the same as the Evo II.

Someone said earlier and I have to agree; the Evo II engine, in road trim, is the sweetest, not quite as much power as the Sport Evo but a tad more torque and sweeter revving, but if you insist on the best...

As you can probably gather even after 7 months without an M3 I still miss it as strongly as ever, I hope to have another one very soon, it is simply one of the greatest cars at any price, not particualarly fast, has a small rough 4 cylinder and a notchy gearbox, but to me it just adds to it's character, if only modern BMWs felt this alive, or indeeed modern cars, sorry getting pathetically nostalgic!

[derin100]

Without going into too much detail:

'Early' M3 = 200 bhp or 195 bhp with CAT

EVO = 200 bhp ie. extra spoilers, lightweight bootlid, but no power increase. Engine identified by 'E' punched into the cylinder head

EVO = 220 bhp plus the extra spoilers, replacement camshafts,pistons, lightened flywheel, modifiedair-intake and Bosch motronic chip.

'Late M3'= effectively EVO II without the extra spoilers and with a CAT

EVO Sport (often called EVO III) = 2.5L engine 238 bhp...plus numerous other modifications...if you haven't done enough reasearch to know why your paying the extra for one...then you shouldn't be buying one!

"Specials":

'Europa Meister 88' = 195 bhp CAT, all have leather trim plus heated seats and A/C - If I remember correctly? - All signed by Roberto Ravaglia but not to be confused with...

UK-bound 'Roberto Ravaglia' which was effectively a 'special edition EVO II' with CAT therefore 215 bhp which was the equivalent of the European 'Cecotto'.

Cabriolets:

May 1998 = 200 bhp non-CAT
Oct 1998- May 1989 = 195 bhp with CAT
Production stopped for 10 months
Then resumes March 1990- July 1991 as 215 bhp-CAT

(N.B None of this applies to North American cars)

Hope this helps.

As said above...I've driven all of them on the road...made no difference as far as I could tell! Also bear in mind the youngest of these cars will be 15 years old now...some horses may have died to varying degrees along the way!








>> Edited by derin100 on Wednesday 25th January 22:03

[sleep envy]

chippy17 said:

As you can probably gather even after 7 months without an M3 I still miss it as strongly as ever, I hope to have another one very soon, it is simply one of the greatest cars at any price, not particualarly fast, has a small rough 4 cylinder and a notchy gearbox, but to me it just adds to it's character, if only modern BMWs felt this alive, or indeeed modern cars, sorry getting pathetically nostalgic!

Sold mine 2 years ago and still wish I had it