M5 E39 launch problems
Discussion
Been having problems getting off the line with this car for a little while and not sure if the car has a problem, so I thought I would ask the M5 contingent on here for their advice.
The car gives the impression of a slipping clutch on fast acceleration. The normal diagnosis for a slipping clutch 3-4th gear and full throttle at low revs it seems to pass without problem, no slippage at all.
However from an aggressive standing start in second you have to let the clutch out fully before you apply thottle of the engine simply spins like the clutch has completely failed.
An agressive standing start in first is much better but if you don't match engine speed in the first to second gearchange very accurately the same happens.
Now I vaguely remember reading about a clutch delay valve designed to prevent premature wear on the clutch in agressive starts, but think mine is quite intrusive to the point where I would expect most people to be complaining about it. Anyone else have this problem or am I looking for a fault?
The car gives the impression of a slipping clutch on fast acceleration. The normal diagnosis for a slipping clutch 3-4th gear and full throttle at low revs it seems to pass without problem, no slippage at all.
However from an aggressive standing start in second you have to let the clutch out fully before you apply thottle of the engine simply spins like the clutch has completely failed.
An agressive standing start in first is much better but if you don't match engine speed in the first to second gearchange very accurately the same happens.
Now I vaguely remember reading about a clutch delay valve designed to prevent premature wear on the clutch in agressive starts, but think mine is quite intrusive to the point where I would expect most people to be complaining about it. Anyone else have this problem or am I looking for a fault?
I remember reading some of the guys at www.m5board.com get around 11,000 miles on a clutch on an E39!!
So it's very possible the clutch is dead.. worth considering an uprated one perhaps?
Russell
So it's very possible the clutch is dead.. worth considering an uprated one perhaps?
Russell
Not experienced anything like this although I don't go in for the traffic light grand prix start, I only push cars in 3rd gear or above. I assume the car hasn't always been like this and as you are not getting clutch slippage in 3rd/4th then I guess a visit to the garage sounds on the cards. As Russell mentioned a search on the E39 section of the www.m5board.com may yield results?
DAZ
>> Edited by dazren on Thursday 17th November 10:22
DAZ
>> Edited by dazren on Thursday 17th November 10:22
Its a 2001 model at 75K, no idea if its had a previous clutch done or not.
I don't like to believe a car eats a clutch I think any clutch should last the like of the car. Drivers eat clutches, or at least thats what I believed until I read about the dreaded M5 clutch delay valve.
A nanny state devisive piece of standard M5 kit designed to shorten the life of clutch.
I shall be removing mine over the weekend.
I don't like to believe a car eats a clutch I think any clutch should last the like of the car. Drivers eat clutches, or at least thats what I believed until I read about the dreaded M5 clutch delay valve.
A nanny state devisive piece of standard M5 kit designed to shorten the life of clutch.
I shall be removing mine over the weekend.
From my reading the clutch delay valve is a simple ball and socket valve put in the line between the clutch pedal and the slave cylinder.
What it means is that although when you put your foot on the clutch the oil flows immediately to the slave cylinder and disengages the clutch. When you take your foot off the clutch the ball locates in its socket and restricts the flow of oil back to the master cylinder. In effect it means no matter how fast you take your foot off the clutch the clutch engages slowly.
Why, designed probably to stop people with no mechanical sensitivity from shocking the drivetrain by dumping the clutch with wildly varying engine/gearbox revs.
Problem, every gearchange is a slipping affair of the type you would expect if you were wearing high heels or wellies. Clutches have a much shortenend life, from an internet survey most people replacing clutches prior to 30K.
before I knew about the clutch delay valve I called the local dealer to ask. 'Well, waddu expect with that much power in the engine sir'
I call that just plain annoying.
What it means is that although when you put your foot on the clutch the oil flows immediately to the slave cylinder and disengages the clutch. When you take your foot off the clutch the ball locates in its socket and restricts the flow of oil back to the master cylinder. In effect it means no matter how fast you take your foot off the clutch the clutch engages slowly.
Why, designed probably to stop people with no mechanical sensitivity from shocking the drivetrain by dumping the clutch with wildly varying engine/gearbox revs.
Problem, every gearchange is a slipping affair of the type you would expect if you were wearing high heels or wellies. Clutches have a much shortenend life, from an internet survey most people replacing clutches prior to 30K.
before I knew about the clutch delay valve I called the local dealer to ask. 'Well, waddu expect with that much power in the engine sir'
I call that just plain annoying.
derestrictor said:
Your clutch, like the quarterback, is toast.
I had precisely the same problem recently and my local dealer conjured up one of the most imaginative billings ever for the job.
Your proctologist is going to be busy.
Well der (by the way I lost my bet, I thought you'd be on this thread in three posts
) Didn't you think why did my clutch go when you were paying the dealer. I own/have owned some pretty lary cars in my time, and never had a clutch go on me. The clutch is meant to last the life of the car because unless its slipping its not actually wearing is it?
If I take my clutch delay valve off the car this weekend and my problems go away are you going to wonder if you just paid out all that money because of a clutch delay valve knackering your clutch or possibly your spanking new sachs clutch is now being eaten away imperceptably by the clutch delay valve as we speak
? By the way, if its not rude, what amount is the proctologist going to remove from me if I'm too far gone to save my current clutch?
It must be that time of year.
Just dropped mine of at the stealers to have the clutch looked at: ok in 1st/2nd, but fast changes from 2nd to 3rd and from 3rd to 4th induced massive slip and the other week it was foot down on an uphill gradient that led to slip, so its being inspected.
I was "informed" that it'll be best part of £800 for a new one, but I'm fighting that on the grounds that I've only had the car 3 months so it should've been replaced before I bought it.
Wtf is the delay valve all about?? That NEEDS to come out!
Just dropped mine of at the stealers to have the clutch looked at: ok in 1st/2nd, but fast changes from 2nd to 3rd and from 3rd to 4th induced massive slip and the other week it was foot down on an uphill gradient that led to slip, so its being inspected.
I was "informed" that it'll be best part of £800 for a new one, but I'm fighting that on the grounds that I've only had the car 3 months so it should've been replaced before I bought it.
Wtf is the delay valve all about?? That NEEDS to come out!
Yep, I can understand why it goes in but I think its downright dishonest of BMW to leave it there when someone is obviously having repeated clutch problems. If you want I'll dig out the more complete information on it and post or do some photos when I remove it this weekend.
Bottom line is BMW don't trust you to realise its a heavy car with a LOT of power.
But thats you me and der all with clutch problems on relatively new M5's. I wonder how mamy other PH'ers have suffered a new clutch on a young M5?
Bottom line is BMW don't trust you to realise its a heavy car with a LOT of power.
But thats you me and der all with clutch problems on relatively new M5's. I wonder how mamy other PH'ers have suffered a new clutch on a young M5?
Julian64 said:
I own/have owned some pretty lary cars in my time, and never had a clutch go on me. The clutch is meant to last the life of the car...
Do what, Guv? Never had a clutch go? Sure you ain't driving an automatic Llantra LXDi?
Julian64 said:
By the way, if its not rude, what amount is the proctologist going to remove from me if I'm too far gone to save my current clutch?
Thick end of a bag (of sand), although I recall being stuffed to the tune of several by the time I'd regained consciousness. Gearbox oot, 'an all that. The swines!
Julian64 said:
Yep, I can understand why it goes in but I think its downright dishonest of BMW to leave it there when someone is obviously having repeated clutch problems. If you want I'll dig out the more complete information on it and post or do some photos when I remove it this weekend.
Bottom line is BMW don't trust you to realise its a heavy car with a LOT of power.
But thats you me and der all with clutch problems on relatively new M5's. I wonder how mamy other PH'ers have suffered a new clutch on a young M5?
The clutch went on my 30k mile M5 earlier in the year, it took the flywheel with it for good measure. This was about 2 weeks after i had taken it in to be looked at for slipping, only to be told there wasn't a problem! Needless to say i asked how exactly a clutch could go from having no problems to failing so catastrophically that the flywheel got stuffed. BMW agreed to pick up the bill after a bit of encouragement
Maybe BMW know they have a bit of a problem, however well undocumented.
If you read my first post you'll notice that I said that on a normal test of clutch performance. 3rd 4th, and full throttle from low revs, the car doesn't slip the clutch, until you change gear that is. So I doubt its purely a clutch problem :fingerscrossed:
I havn't said anything till now because it takes me a while with a car to get the gearchanges perfect. But after receiving an insurance renewal request I realised it had been a year and I still wasn't happy with the gearchange. I even managed to get the Cerb launched respectably in less time than that.
For the last few weeks I'd convinced myself that my car had a problem as this doesn't seemed to have been mentioned by the other M5 owners on here. But thanks to the power of PH I rekon this may be a M5 character flaw needing a bit of my special attention
I am kinda waiting for a comment from one of the BMW 'insiders' that frequent this board, but they all seem quiet today
If you read my first post you'll notice that I said that on a normal test of clutch performance. 3rd 4th, and full throttle from low revs, the car doesn't slip the clutch, until you change gear that is. So I doubt its purely a clutch problem :fingerscrossed:
I havn't said anything till now because it takes me a while with a car to get the gearchanges perfect. But after receiving an insurance renewal request I realised it had been a year and I still wasn't happy with the gearchange. I even managed to get the Cerb launched respectably in less time than that.
For the last few weeks I'd convinced myself that my car had a problem as this doesn't seemed to have been mentioned by the other M5 owners on here. But thanks to the power of PH I rekon this may be a M5 character flaw needing a bit of my special attention
I am kinda waiting for a comment from one of the BMW 'insiders' that frequent this board, but they all seem quiet today
My car had this problem, which I attributed to the clutch, but never did anything about it. If I got back on the throttle (after changing from 1st to 2nd) before my foot was fully off the clutch, then the revs would flare without the car actually gaining any speed. The clutch was the original, with 75k miles. No probs in any othe gears, I just learnt to be extra-careful about fully engaging the clutch before letting rip.
I would get a diagnosis from a friendly dealer, though it might be hard to find a technician who's prepared to do a genuine diagnosis, other then "Yeah, it's had it. You need a new clutch and flywheel".
The clutch is self-adjusting. The self-adjust mechanism might be screwed, not the clutch itself.
Budget 800 quid to replace.
I would get a diagnosis from a friendly dealer, though it might be hard to find a technician who's prepared to do a genuine diagnosis, other then "Yeah, it's had it. You need a new clutch and flywheel".
The clutch is self-adjusting. The self-adjust mechanism might be screwed, not the clutch itself.
Budget 800 quid to replace.
I had similar problems earlier in the year. I'd had the car for a couple of months and occasionally it felt like the clutch was slipping. I took it in 3 times, with them not believing it was the clutch, but eventually they did replace it under warranty - it's a 2001 which at the time had only 25.5K on it. However, I had not heard anything about the dump valve - this might explain a few things though.
I felt the same as Julian64 - I've driven other powerful cars and never had a clutch replaced, or come close, so this was something unexpected. Luckily the warranty had its uses, but I am not sure if they would do it again.
I felt the same as Julian64 - I've driven other powerful cars and never had a clutch replaced, or come close, so this was something unexpected. Luckily the warranty had its uses, but I am not sure if they would do it again.
I dont think the m5 has a clutch delay valve, the rest of the e39 range does though.
www.zeckhausen.com/cdv.htm
www.zeckhausen.com/cdv.htm
Yep, starting to think you're right. Had my M5 on the ramp all afternoon and no sign of a clutch delay valve in any of the positions suggested.
However with someone on the clutch and me underneath there does seem to be a significant delay between taking the foot off the clutch and the clutch engaging. Not really sure why as I thought it'd be instant. Its acting like there is a clutch delay valve but none present.
Bit mistified at the moment.
However with someone on the clutch and me underneath there does seem to be a significant delay between taking the foot off the clutch and the clutch engaging. Not really sure why as I thought it'd be instant. Its acting like there is a clutch delay valve but none present.
Bit mistified at the moment.
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