330 Sport power delivery
Discussion
Hi all,
Test drove a 330 Sport saloon yesterday and didn't notice any throttle delay as discussed in another thread on here, but did notice that there was a distinct 'flat spot' in the power delivery. I wasn't driving it long enough to get a definitive RPM that this occured. I appreciate this isn't a lot of info, but any ideas as to possible causes and remedies? I also noticed a noise from the rear end that sounded similar to 'wind noise' but was distinctly, I feel, mechanical. Again - any ideas? In all other respects this was a fine car - perhaps I should just go for an AA inspection..! :)
Jim
Test drove a 330 Sport saloon yesterday and didn't notice any throttle delay as discussed in another thread on here, but did notice that there was a distinct 'flat spot' in the power delivery. I wasn't driving it long enough to get a definitive RPM that this occured. I appreciate this isn't a lot of info, but any ideas as to possible causes and remedies? I also noticed a noise from the rear end that sounded similar to 'wind noise' but was distinctly, I feel, mechanical. Again - any ideas? In all other respects this was a fine car - perhaps I should just go for an AA inspection..! :)
Jim
sorry
Jimjob,
Was it a brand new car or and older one? Having asked the question, I’m not sure if the new ones have dispensed with the vacuum actuated flap in one of the rear tail pipes or if they still have it (allegedly to improve low end torque, I believe). The one on my car (2000 vintage) was making a nasty squeaky/gratey noise as it opened (approx 3 – 3,500 rpm) so I diconnected the tube (and blocked the end which I understand is the thing to do if fitting aftermarket exhausts that don’t feature the flap). I can’t feel any difference in low end torque and if I want summon up some serious pulling power, I’ll select a cog that puts the engine in the power band, thanks!
Anyway, the point of the story is that in the rev range where the flap would have been open, I do notice a wind-like noise that, as you say, sounds vaguely mechanical (resonance-like). I don’t know what causes this, or indeed if it’s related to the VANOS unit changing the valve timing. I hope it’s not indicative of any problem in that area or I’ll be making some rear-end noises of my own.
Was it a brand new car or and older one? Having asked the question, I’m not sure if the new ones have dispensed with the vacuum actuated flap in one of the rear tail pipes or if they still have it (allegedly to improve low end torque, I believe). The one on my car (2000 vintage) was making a nasty squeaky/gratey noise as it opened (approx 3 – 3,500 rpm) so I diconnected the tube (and blocked the end which I understand is the thing to do if fitting aftermarket exhausts that don’t feature the flap). I can’t feel any difference in low end torque and if I want summon up some serious pulling power, I’ll select a cog that puts the engine in the power band, thanks!
Anyway, the point of the story is that in the rev range where the flap would have been open, I do notice a wind-like noise that, as you say, sounds vaguely mechanical (resonance-like). I don’t know what causes this, or indeed if it’s related to the VANOS unit changing the valve timing. I hope it’s not indicative of any problem in that area or I’ll be making some rear-end noises of my own.
daver said:
Jimjob,
Was it a brand new car or and older one? Having asked the question, I’m not sure if the new ones have dispensed with the vacuum actuated flap in one of the rear tail pipes or if they still have it (allegedly to improve low end torque, I believe). The one on my car (2000 vintage) was making a nasty squeaky/gratey noise as it opened (approx 3 – 3,500 rpm) so I diconnected the tube (and blocked the end which I understand is the thing to do if fitting aftermarket exhausts that don’t feature the flap). I can’t feel any difference in low end torque and if I want summon up some serious pulling power, I’ll select a cog that puts the engine in the power band, thanks!
Anyway, the point of the story is that in the rev range where the flap would have been open, I do notice a wind-like noise that, as you say, sounds vaguely mechanical (resonance-like). I don’t know what causes this, or indeed if it’s related to the VANOS unit changing the valve timing. I hope it’s not indicative of any problem in that area or I’ll be making some rear-end noises of my own.
I thought that flap thingy was to keep it quiet at low revs but retaining a sporty sound when you put the boot in?
Cheers for that folks - I have decided to buy it but not until I have had an extended test drive to check the noise out again. Does anyone know if it is 'the end of the world' if the servicing it has had is not exactly to the BMW order of oil, insp 1, oil, insp 2, oil.. etc? All the servicing has been BMW but this one appears to have gone oil, insp 1, oil, oil, insp 2, and lastly oil 5k mile ago. Not quite sure how that could have happened as it was apparently under warranty until Jan this year. Any ideas?
Jim
Jim
With reference to the throttle delay, the undriveable 330s were the early ones: 2000-2003 I believe. BMW are understandably cagey about giving details of it when you ask, but I believe that the problem was fixed after about 2003.
The only post 2003 BMWs that I've driven are the 1 series (all variants) and the 320d. The 320d seemed fine to me, but all the 1 series cars had a small delay. Most modern cars do it, but they vary by how much: I drove a Nissan 350Z on Saturday and that had a small delay that was enough to make me walk away - the Clio V6 was unmistakably a fly-by-wire but so small that I wasn't that bothered.
Before you buy one really do concentrate on the throttle, as I can garauntee that if it has a delay it will only become apparent once you settle into the car a week down the line (or the first time it rains). I wouldn't want you to waste your money like I did.
A lot of modern cars do have flat spots - these are often caused by EU emissions and drive by regs.
The only post 2003 BMWs that I've driven are the 1 series (all variants) and the 320d. The 320d seemed fine to me, but all the 1 series cars had a small delay. Most modern cars do it, but they vary by how much: I drove a Nissan 350Z on Saturday and that had a small delay that was enough to make me walk away - the Clio V6 was unmistakably a fly-by-wire but so small that I wasn't that bothered.
Before you buy one really do concentrate on the throttle, as I can garauntee that if it has a delay it will only become apparent once you settle into the car a week down the line (or the first time it rains). I wouldn't want you to waste your money like I did.
A lot of modern cars do have flat spots - these are often caused by EU emissions and drive by regs.
There is a thread on here about throttle delay in the 330, and how that affects the drive - when you're trying to set up for a corner, for example. My 330 is a 2000, i.e. an early one, and it is in no way undriveable. There is a miniscule delay between mashing the pedal and the 'whoomph' but, in mine anyway, it is no where near as long as some people (RobM in particular) appear to have experienced. It certainly doesn't spoil the drive, but that may be down to my driving style (press-on, but relaxed with it 
)! 
>> Edited by jimjob on Friday 23 September 00:04
>> Edited by jimjob on Friday 23 September 00:40
)! >> Edited by jimjob on Friday 23 September 00:04
>> Edited by jimjob on Friday 23 September 00:40
jimjob said:
There is a thread on here about throttle delay in the 330, and how that affects the drive - when you're trying to set up for a corner, for example. My 330 is a 2000, i.e. an early one, and it is in no way undriveable. There is a miniscule delay between mashing the pedal and the 'whoomph' but, in mine anyway, it is no where near as long as some people (RobM in particular) appear to have experienced. It certainly doesn't spoil the drive, but that may be down to my driving style (press-on, but relaxed with it.
What he said.
>> Edited by daver on Friday 23 September 10:42
The tests:
1) put the car in first gear and tap your foot up and down. My car does nothing - absolutely diddly-squat.
2) coming out of a tight corner (so you're not on the power at all), squeeze the throttle to accelerate. Can you count to two quickly before the engine wakes up? I can!
My car has been examined by BMW, who state that the car is - I quote 'within tolerances for the delay between pressing the accelerator pedal and the engine responding. It is infuriating beyond belief and I'm now selling the car. I've asked for my money back, but BMW refuse.
1) put the car in first gear and tap your foot up and down. My car does nothing - absolutely diddly-squat.
2) coming out of a tight corner (so you're not on the power at all), squeeze the throttle to accelerate. Can you count to two quickly before the engine wakes up? I can!
My car has been examined by BMW, who state that the car is - I quote 'within tolerances for the delay between pressing the accelerator pedal and the engine responding. It is infuriating beyond belief and I'm now selling the car. I've asked for my money back, but BMW refuse.
RobM77 said:
The tests:
1) put the car in first gear and tap your foot up and down. My car does nothing - absolutely diddly-squat.
2) coming out of a tight corner (so you're not on the power at all), squeeze the throttle to accelerate. Can you count to two quickly before the engine wakes up? I can!
I think you've been unlucky there Rob - mine does have a delay, but no where near as long as yours and to be honest if the throttle was much quicker you'd run the risk of kangaroo-ing everywhere. It doesn't effect my cornering as I hardly ever enter a corner with no power on.
but how do you get the power on in the first place ;-) that's the problem... at turn-in you come off the brake onto the accelerator to hold a steady throttle and absolutely nothing happens - you coast from entry to apex and then (a second later) you get a sudden jerk when the car responds.
In my experience with different throttles in different cars, a quick responding throttle only leads to jerky progress if there is some slack at the top on it, or it is fly by wire. My Caterham had a responsive throttle, and you could drive it smoother than anything because it was a cable.
In my experience with different throttles in different cars, a quick responding throttle only leads to jerky progress if there is some slack at the top on it, or it is fly by wire. My Caterham had a responsive throttle, and you could drive it smoother than anything because it was a cable.
RobM77 said:
but how do you get the power on in the first place ;-) that's the problem... at turn-in you come off the brake onto the accelerator to hold a steady throttle and absolutely nothing happens - you coast from entry to apex and then (a second later) you get a sudden jerk when the car responds.
Without turning this into an advanced driving thread.. I have been taught to have the car 'set-up' (i.e. correct speed, position, gear) for a hazard (e.g. a bend) and to have the car balanced on the throttle in advance of negotiating it - hence no mid-corner hassles. You drive like I used to, 'racing' style (not saying you drive to fast or anything though!); you could try changing your driving style and then you wouldn't have to sell your car!
No, that's ok - I think we mean the same thing. I am also referring to the point when you set the car up before the hazard. You'll have everything set up before the bend or hazard, but the throttle won't respond. The throttle then finally gets round to responding mid corner or mid hazard and messes everything up!! This can be quite dangerous in the wet or at higher speed.
RobM77 said:
Life's too short for fly-by-wire throttle! bye bye BMW hello proper car manufacturers!
Rob, I'm beginning to wonder if you might not have more joy with your dealer/BMW if you took a slightly different stance and could explain yourself a little more clearly.
If you're taking this (paraphrased) "fly-by-wire throttle's rubbish, 330's are undriveable, BMW can't make a proper car..." angle with them, then I wouldn't expect you to receive much of a conciliatory response.
If your car really has got a catastrophic throttle response then I'm sure that if you were to allow either a dealer engineer or an indie to drive it, then, they would back you up. Neither of them have anything to gain by stating that a car with a clear fault is functioning perfectly.
However, this is *if* your car has a fault. In your foot-tapping test, it appears that you expect a 1.5 ton car to take off like a scalded cat with nanosecond responses from 700rpm with the clutch fully out? My Cerbera has 8 throttle bodies and a one of your beloved throttle cables and it wouldn't do this for you either.
You also refer to coming out of a tight corner on zero power. In my world, exiting a tight bend equates to 2,500 - 3,000rpm in second gear on a balanced throttle. This is not 'zero power', however, and I would expect no delay in power delivery (in my 330) in response to increased pressure on the gas pedal as I exited the bend.
I'm not having a go here. It's just that there are a couple of examples above on this thread where others don't appear to be 100% sure where you're coming from either.
If your car has a problem, I hope you can explain/demonstrate it to someone who can help you get it fixed. I've just had to have both my cam sensors replaced. My car was distinctly off-colour before it went into my local Indie (Munich Motors, Wokingham
) and my faith in it was a little dented. Now it's back at the peak of health and I am reminded again of just what a fabulous motor the bimmer 3.0 six-pot is. >> Edited by daver on Monday 26th September 10:14
daver said:
If you're taking this (paraphrased) "fly-by-wire throttle's rubbish, 330's are undriveable, BMW can't make a proper car..." angle with them, then I wouldn't expect you to receive much of a conciliatory response.
Rest assured I'm being a bit more diplomatic with the dealers :-) The work sheets simply say "delay between pressing the throttle and the engine responding" - which sums it up nicely.
I would like to think I'm fairly good at explaining things - I do it for a living! (I'm an IT Trainer). The confusion on this thread is where exactly this throttle delay becomes a problem, I think everyone understands what it actually is.
The balanced throttle that is the accepted way to corner just isn't possible, as by the time the engine has picked up to the correct revs you've almost finished the corner!
With regard to expecting a car of this weight to respond quickly, my previous car was an E36 BMW 325i with a cable throttle, which was only 200kg lighter and had 40bhp less. That car was a joy to drive round any bend - superb car! It was just getting a bit old and I fancied a replacement. Naturally, I regret this now and wish I'd kept it!
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