tracking a csl
Discussion
All depends on how you drive I guess. The one I drove on a track had woeful brakes for grinding / noise but they did work. I read all the time of BM brakes being crap on a track and can say that mine were ........ until I changed to DS2500 pads and they were fine on a sweeping Donington.
DS2500 are crap on the CSL as they just melt (I got 1 day at spa out of a rear set before they died and the AP users state they are good for 1 day on the AP front kit too).
I initially changed to Pagid RS19 front pads with AP Racing 5.1 fluid and braided hoses all round which did make a difference, enough if you only do a few trackdays a year or aren't a heavy brake user. I still had brake problems so have now got the 356mm AP Racing 6 pots on the front with RS29 Pads and RS19 on the rear with AP Racing dot 4 fluid and some brake cooling ducts from a Porsche cup car on the wishbones. Seems fine now. Wish I'd gone straight for the kit in the first place.
Check out the csl section on www.bm3w.co.uk
I initially changed to Pagid RS19 front pads with AP Racing 5.1 fluid and braided hoses all round which did make a difference, enough if you only do a few trackdays a year or aren't a heavy brake user. I still had brake problems so have now got the 356mm AP Racing 6 pots on the front with RS29 Pads and RS19 on the rear with AP Racing dot 4 fluid and some brake cooling ducts from a Porsche cup car on the wishbones. Seems fine now. Wish I'd gone straight for the kit in the first place.
Check out the csl section on www.bm3w.co.uk
can't bmw just stick decent brakes on instead.I don't get the whole BMW sliding caliper thing. There was even a whole section in a car mag not too long ago with the M-Sport engineers justifying the use of sliders over fixed on the M6.
And the whole "not meant for track use thing" is nonsense if you ask me. My friend has on occasion totally faded out the brakes on his (ex) E46 M3 with spirited road driving. And isn't the CSL supposed to be a BMW bred for track work?
Not that sliding calipers are of themselves the problem with sustained braking performance in these cars, but "they" do say that sliders are the choice of the accountant as opposed to the engineer.
Wonder if AP Racing or Brembo do slider kits...
And the whole "not meant for track use thing" is nonsense if you ask me. My friend has on occasion totally faded out the brakes on his (ex) E46 M3 with spirited road driving. And isn't the CSL supposed to be a BMW bred for track work?
Not that sliding calipers are of themselves the problem with sustained braking performance in these cars, but "they" do say that sliders are the choice of the accountant as opposed to the engineer.
Wonder if AP Racing or Brembo do slider kits...
The reasons are depressingly obvious, firstly the sliding single pots cost a lot less and they use a standard structure/components across the whole BMW range so the parts are interchangeable. Secondly, they're easy to service, last for ever with little maintenance and work well in a variety of road conditions (snow, ice, water, dust etc).
On the plus side BMW braking systems are the best on the market in terms of feel and progression (better than Porsche in my experience), but they suffer from pads that don't like hot temperatures and therefore fade and deposit material all over the disc causing the dredded 'grumble' which feels like they're warping (but they're not). A further downside is that compared to a good AP caliper, the BMW caliper is made of pig iron and weighs 'twice' as much. I saved nearly 8 kg IIRC just by replacing the calipers on my CSL which to put it in perspective is considerably more than the weight saving achieved by fitting the carbon roof. So who says BMW don't have their priorities in the right place.
To be fair to BMW, with the CSL they recommend fitting Pagid RS4-4 Orange pads in place of the standard ones, so fitting RS19s (a step up from the RS4-4 will make the OEM brakes much more tolerant of track work. But I do wish BMW had provided the option to just fit a decent track set in the first place.
On the plus side BMW braking systems are the best on the market in terms of feel and progression (better than Porsche in my experience), but they suffer from pads that don't like hot temperatures and therefore fade and deposit material all over the disc causing the dredded 'grumble' which feels like they're warping (but they're not). A further downside is that compared to a good AP caliper, the BMW caliper is made of pig iron and weighs 'twice' as much. I saved nearly 8 kg IIRC just by replacing the calipers on my CSL which to put it in perspective is considerably more than the weight saving achieved by fitting the carbon roof. So who says BMW don't have their priorities in the right place.
To be fair to BMW, with the CSL they recommend fitting Pagid RS4-4 Orange pads in place of the standard ones, so fitting RS19s (a step up from the RS4-4 will make the OEM brakes much more tolerant of track work. But I do wish BMW had provided the option to just fit a decent track set in the first place.
CRAIG L said:
i am thinking of doing a track day with my csl, will the brakes be ok
They are just the iron caliper the same as m3,csl just has slightly bigger disc,changed my m8's to AP racing 6pot calipers and disc's to match,its fine now as he was loosing brakes,so the standard ones are not good for the car it is,cost cutting by you know who.
-DeaDLocK- said:and the answer is......
I don't get the whole BMW sliding caliper thing. There was even a whole section in a car mag not too long ago with the M-Sport engineers justifying the use of sliders over fixed on the M6.
And the whole "not meant for track use thing" is nonsense if you ask me. My friend has on occasion totally faded out the brakes on his (ex) E46 M3 with spirited road driving. And isn't the CSL supposed to be a BMW bred for track work?
Not that sliding calipers are of themselves the problem with sustained braking performance in these cars, but "they" do say that sliders are the choice of the accountant as opposed to the engineer.
Wonder if AP Racing or Brembo do slider kits...
....no!
It's just bollox. I don't even think it is meanness. I just thing they have an absolute blindspot about this issue. Mine were fading yesterday after just a few hard applications from three figure speeds.
Broccers said:Depends how quick you were going. For your first few track days I'm sure they're fine, but soon after they're fadetastic.
All depends on how you drive I guess. The one I drove on a track had woeful brakes for grinding / noise but they did work. I read all the time of BM brakes being crap on a track and can say that mine were ........ until I changed to DS2500 pads and they were fine on a sweeping Donington.
well i do about 6 track days a year plus 1 or 2 weekends at Nurburg (very light on brakes there)
On my E46 M3 i use pagid RS-19's on the front, standard pads at rear, Goodrich braided hoses and AP 5.1 and the difference is massive.
The AP set up is not worth it unless you do quite a few trackdays, just my opinion though.
On my E46 M3 i use pagid RS-19's on the front, standard pads at rear, Goodrich braided hoses and AP 5.1 and the difference is massive.
The AP set up is not worth it unless you do quite a few trackdays, just my opinion though.
CRAIG L said:
i am thinking of doing a track day with my csl, will the brakes be ok
Depends on how hard you drive, and how many laps you stay out.. also depends on track and weather.(if it's a hot day, then def no).
I did Snetterton a few weeks ago and brakes pads were half way down to start.. by mid morning brake light was on, pedal was through floor, brakes were killed and I was nearly in the tyre wall..
To sum up.. my APs arrived yesterday and are being fitted tomorrow..
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