130i to E46 M3?
Discussion
I’m getting a bit bored of my 130i. It’s a 3dr LE.
It’s a nice enough car, but generally high running costs aside (20-25mpg, insurance etc), then maintenance of issues on a 100k mile 15 year old car (seems about £1,000 a year), and then also subtly modding it to make it it’s best… it’s a fair old chunk of cash, time and effort.
My wife drove it the other week and said it was very stiff and loud, but to me I feel it’s the softness, vague bushings, too refined, that hurts it.
It is ‘stiff’ but then not communicative.
It is loud, but not properly dynamic, you can tell load and rpm just listening to it.
I don’t want to be paying £££ more trying out different dampers, modified insurance, tracking the wheels again, blah blah, just to end up with something that’ll never be right and essentially just leaving a big financial hole.
I keep looking at M3s again on Autotrader.
Maybe a soft top so I can go out with family in summer and have roof down.
But also a bit of fun on my own?
Has anyone else moved from a big engined ‘normal’ bmw like a 130i, to an M3, and found their woes with the standard cars alleviated?
Namely, just vague damping. Vague bushing. Vague seats. Vague steering. Vague nvh.
I just can’t properly enjoy it.
It’s like a caricature of a fun car, but without the real depth and attention to detail.
I’ve had a few goes in an E46 M3, but I know it can take many miles on your favourite roads to get a proper feel for a car… more so if it’s an older car that needs some work.
I drove a CS (smg) that I enjoyed the general feel of, all the primary feelings and noises were right but I know the CS rack and wheels make a decent difference (faster steering and light 19”)… but being an orrible automatic it was hard to gauge.
Manual CS are pretty rare and commonly in that boring blue.
I suppose I need to go test drive some more cars, I’m just cautious of driving bad examples and/or modded versions and not getting a clear idea.
The market looks like it’s softening now.
I’m not sure whether a cheap high miler that I make good is more sensible as I’d plan to use it and put miles on it?
It’s a nice enough car, but generally high running costs aside (20-25mpg, insurance etc), then maintenance of issues on a 100k mile 15 year old car (seems about £1,000 a year), and then also subtly modding it to make it it’s best… it’s a fair old chunk of cash, time and effort.
My wife drove it the other week and said it was very stiff and loud, but to me I feel it’s the softness, vague bushings, too refined, that hurts it.
It is ‘stiff’ but then not communicative.
It is loud, but not properly dynamic, you can tell load and rpm just listening to it.
I don’t want to be paying £££ more trying out different dampers, modified insurance, tracking the wheels again, blah blah, just to end up with something that’ll never be right and essentially just leaving a big financial hole.
I keep looking at M3s again on Autotrader.
Maybe a soft top so I can go out with family in summer and have roof down.
But also a bit of fun on my own?
Has anyone else moved from a big engined ‘normal’ bmw like a 130i, to an M3, and found their woes with the standard cars alleviated?
Namely, just vague damping. Vague bushing. Vague seats. Vague steering. Vague nvh.
I just can’t properly enjoy it.
It’s like a caricature of a fun car, but without the real depth and attention to detail.
I’ve had a few goes in an E46 M3, but I know it can take many miles on your favourite roads to get a proper feel for a car… more so if it’s an older car that needs some work.
I drove a CS (smg) that I enjoyed the general feel of, all the primary feelings and noises were right but I know the CS rack and wheels make a decent difference (faster steering and light 19”)… but being an orrible automatic it was hard to gauge.
Manual CS are pretty rare and commonly in that boring blue.
I suppose I need to go test drive some more cars, I’m just cautious of driving bad examples and/or modded versions and not getting a clear idea.
The market looks like it’s softening now.
I’m not sure whether a cheap high miler that I make good is more sensible as I’d plan to use it and put miles on it?
I know a few people that have made this move, but none with any success.
It was a VERY short honeymoon period indeed (engine related) before the realisation set in.
…..It’s a generation older car, which really shows after a bit. The running and maintenance costs start at over double, as long as nothing M//ch goes wrong. If that happens, it could be open wallet surgery!
Your 130i sounds to me as if its standard?
One of those can be sorted for sensible sums. Eibach / Bilstien, bump stops, subframe bushes and some M3 front arms.
If it’s aligned and on top notch tyres, it’ll be a resolved and satisfying drive.
Way more comfortable than standard.
There are sensible exhaust and induction options and the N52 will sound even better too.
£2000 + some labour should sort it.
A really nice M3 with all sensible miles and in good mechanical and cosmetic shape, will cost a fortune these days.
I would say that most reasonable E46 M3’s at average money, will now need several thousand spent to get them into the decent shape, that you might want to live with as a 130i replacement.
In 2005/6 when you could buy either new, as long as you had the extra 50% funds required, it was a no brainier. Now though, it’s way more of a pricey gamble.
Updating / refreshing / running and maintaining a 130i is child’s play compared to an E46 M3.
IMHO
It was a VERY short honeymoon period indeed (engine related) before the realisation set in.
…..It’s a generation older car, which really shows after a bit. The running and maintenance costs start at over double, as long as nothing M//ch goes wrong. If that happens, it could be open wallet surgery!
Your 130i sounds to me as if its standard?
One of those can be sorted for sensible sums. Eibach / Bilstien, bump stops, subframe bushes and some M3 front arms.
If it’s aligned and on top notch tyres, it’ll be a resolved and satisfying drive.
Way more comfortable than standard.
There are sensible exhaust and induction options and the N52 will sound even better too.
£2000 + some labour should sort it.
A really nice M3 with all sensible miles and in good mechanical and cosmetic shape, will cost a fortune these days.
I would say that most reasonable E46 M3’s at average money, will now need several thousand spent to get them into the decent shape, that you might want to live with as a 130i replacement.
In 2005/6 when you could buy either new, as long as you had the extra 50% funds required, it was a no brainier. Now though, it’s way more of a pricey gamble.
Updating / refreshing / running and maintaining a 130i is child’s play compared to an E46 M3.
IMHO
Not quite the same swap you are contemplating, but after 5+ years with 3 litre Z4 Coupes (same N52 engine as your 130i) I swapped to a Z4M Coupe 3 years ago that has the same S54 engine as the E46 M3.
And my daily drivers over the same 8 years have been an E46 325ti Compact followed by an E91 325i then an E90 330i - N52 engines in both of the latter pair.
So the nearest comparison to your 130i would be my current 330i and that does feel way more, maybe too much more, refined than my Z4M but as a daily I can live with that! It doesn't drive with anything like the precision of my Z4M, but it has done 120K miles and I don't know how old the suspension components are apart from the rear shocks and top mounts I had to get replaced a year or so ago. However my Z4M had new H & R coil-overs fitted just a few months before I got it and after a 4 wheel alignment to E46 M3 CSL spec it feels really sharp to drive, even if the ride is definitely very firm.
I see you don't want to get involved in refreshing the suspension on your 130i, but if you get any E46 after 17 or more years there is every chance it will also be ready for a refresh unless you find one that has had it done recently.
Your LE will have electric PAS so you may notice better steering feel in an E46 as they have Hydraulic PAS - I certainly noticed the difference when I swapped my 3 litre Z4 Coupe for my M Coupe. Being an early model my 330i has hydraulic PAS too.
Most running costs will be similar, although my Z4M only averages about 27mpg compared to early 30s for my 330i. being post March 2006 my Z4M costs £600+ a year to tax, but I don't think any E46 M3s were registered late enough to get hit with that.
Where you will notice a difference is in servicing costs! Consumable parts for M cars attract the "M-Tax", and as the S54 engine doesn't have hydraulic lifters every Inspection Service (so alternate services) requires the valve clearances to be checked while cold and adjusted as required with shims. Inspection 2 services also require replacement of the gearbox and diff. oil.
Then there is the S54 crank rod bearing shell issue! Basically the shells wear and that is generally believed to be exacerbated if the engine is thrashed before it is fully up to temperature. If they wear too much there is a risk of spinning a bearing which will result in a whole world of wallet pain. As my Z4M had 7 previous keepers when I got it I had the shells replaced at 78K miles and they looked pretty tired, but another Z4M owner just had his done at 57K and they were just as bad although another Z4M owner didn't have his replaced until after 100K. Unless you know the car's history it seems to depend how lucky you feel. New shells and engine mounts cost me about £1,000 replaced by an ex-Sytner BMW Indy. If you find one that has already had new shells recently that would be a real bonus so long as it was properly warmed-up!
FWIW what I have read suggests the E46 convertible may not be too great dynamically as the bodyshell isn't as stiff as the Coupes, but even Z4 Roadsters have a stiffer shell than E46 Coupes.
Hope that is of some help.
And my daily drivers over the same 8 years have been an E46 325ti Compact followed by an E91 325i then an E90 330i - N52 engines in both of the latter pair.
So the nearest comparison to your 130i would be my current 330i and that does feel way more, maybe too much more, refined than my Z4M but as a daily I can live with that! It doesn't drive with anything like the precision of my Z4M, but it has done 120K miles and I don't know how old the suspension components are apart from the rear shocks and top mounts I had to get replaced a year or so ago. However my Z4M had new H & R coil-overs fitted just a few months before I got it and after a 4 wheel alignment to E46 M3 CSL spec it feels really sharp to drive, even if the ride is definitely very firm.
I see you don't want to get involved in refreshing the suspension on your 130i, but if you get any E46 after 17 or more years there is every chance it will also be ready for a refresh unless you find one that has had it done recently.
Your LE will have electric PAS so you may notice better steering feel in an E46 as they have Hydraulic PAS - I certainly noticed the difference when I swapped my 3 litre Z4 Coupe for my M Coupe. Being an early model my 330i has hydraulic PAS too.
Most running costs will be similar, although my Z4M only averages about 27mpg compared to early 30s for my 330i. being post March 2006 my Z4M costs £600+ a year to tax, but I don't think any E46 M3s were registered late enough to get hit with that.
Where you will notice a difference is in servicing costs! Consumable parts for M cars attract the "M-Tax", and as the S54 engine doesn't have hydraulic lifters every Inspection Service (so alternate services) requires the valve clearances to be checked while cold and adjusted as required with shims. Inspection 2 services also require replacement of the gearbox and diff. oil.
Then there is the S54 crank rod bearing shell issue! Basically the shells wear and that is generally believed to be exacerbated if the engine is thrashed before it is fully up to temperature. If they wear too much there is a risk of spinning a bearing which will result in a whole world of wallet pain. As my Z4M had 7 previous keepers when I got it I had the shells replaced at 78K miles and they looked pretty tired, but another Z4M owner just had his done at 57K and they were just as bad although another Z4M owner didn't have his replaced until after 100K. Unless you know the car's history it seems to depend how lucky you feel. New shells and engine mounts cost me about £1,000 replaced by an ex-Sytner BMW Indy. If you find one that has already had new shells recently that would be a real bonus so long as it was properly warmed-up!
FWIW what I have read suggests the E46 convertible may not be too great dynamically as the bodyshell isn't as stiff as the Coupes, but even Z4 Roadsters have a stiffer shell than E46 Coupes.
Hope that is of some help.
“It’s a nice enough car, but generally high running costs aside (20-25mpg, insurance etc), then maintenance of issues on a 100k mile 15 year old car (seems about £1,000 a year), and then also subtly modding it to make it it’s best… it’s a fair old chunk of cash, time and effort.”
If you want cheaper running costs, don’t go for an M3.
As others have suggested, sounds like you’d be best off doing some work to the 130i.
That said, sounds like you fancy a change. Maybe there’s a half way house to be had? Could look at a 335i or something
If you want cheaper running costs, don’t go for an M3.
As others have suggested, sounds like you’d be best off doing some work to the 130i.
That said, sounds like you fancy a change. Maybe there’s a half way house to be had? Could look at a 335i or something
I've had my E46 M3 for eight years.
For the last year it hasn't been driven, until last month where my daily diesel was giving me trouble, so I had to turn to the M3 as the daily.
I couldn't wait to get out of it and back into my normal daily.
What I realised though was just how good of a car it actually is. Everything works. It does everything a 'car' should. Why then did I want out?
Modern cars have a great ability to hide their weight. Steering and controls are lighter. Everything more sensitive. Engines are calibrated for low down torque with a flat torque curve across the useful rev range.
The E46 M3 is not a light car and you can feel it particularly at low speed. The steering feels slow and heavy. The clutch is heavier than modern stuff. The gearbox is clunky when cold and isn't the best manual 'box around anyway. The whole car can feel clunky and heavy around town.
On the motorway it's much happier, but you'll not see any more than 30mpg (probably doesn't matter but worth mentioning). The sound system is outdated (unless HK).
All of the above was daily driving and nothing exciting.
The reason I've kept the car and can't wait to get back into it for non daily duties is that it is a gateway to analogue, naturally aspirated greatness.
Once out of town and warmed up, the S54 delivers a lost art of rising torque as you are forced to chase the redline, from which just a few hundred RPM short, peak power is delivered. The noise is not only a glorious by-product, but a defining feature of the car.
The steering that felt slow and lethargic in town is now more alive and doesn't feel nervous and over-sensitive. Conversely, it could still probably do with a slightly quicker rack.
The M3 has a tendency to understeer a little bit and is not the tail happy lunatic that some may expect it to be. Sure, it'll do that too if pressed but the LSD does a really nice job of keeping good balance here and is predictable.
It is a car that probably has just enough power to be used within a good chunk of its limits on the road. It's not modern day ///M fast but that's the beauty of it.
The E46 M3 takes quite a while to understand and to bond with it. Takes time to understand the hype. You have to allow yourself to learn what it wants to do. It is a car which really rewards patience and desire to change driving style to the car's liking
They're for the large part reliable cars and will keep on going even through neglect. For a while.
Neglected or not, the big issues are rear subframe cracks, rust on rear arches and several issues with the otherwise brilliant S54. Those being Vanos (not as scary as it sounds), head gasket and big end bearings.
My vanos was done at 80K.
My head gasket is good still at 130K
Big end bearings changed at 130K. They were fine.
I've got a little bit of rear arch corrosion coming through which is now going to be the next job.
In summary, they're as great as the hype would have you believe, but being used as designed, on the right roads, on decent rubber and with all the suspension and bushes in good condition combined with the correct geometry.
Not a daily in my opinion. Maybe viable in 2005 but not 2023.
Good luck!
For the last year it hasn't been driven, until last month where my daily diesel was giving me trouble, so I had to turn to the M3 as the daily.
I couldn't wait to get out of it and back into my normal daily.
What I realised though was just how good of a car it actually is. Everything works. It does everything a 'car' should. Why then did I want out?
Modern cars have a great ability to hide their weight. Steering and controls are lighter. Everything more sensitive. Engines are calibrated for low down torque with a flat torque curve across the useful rev range.
The E46 M3 is not a light car and you can feel it particularly at low speed. The steering feels slow and heavy. The clutch is heavier than modern stuff. The gearbox is clunky when cold and isn't the best manual 'box around anyway. The whole car can feel clunky and heavy around town.
On the motorway it's much happier, but you'll not see any more than 30mpg (probably doesn't matter but worth mentioning). The sound system is outdated (unless HK).
All of the above was daily driving and nothing exciting.
The reason I've kept the car and can't wait to get back into it for non daily duties is that it is a gateway to analogue, naturally aspirated greatness.
Once out of town and warmed up, the S54 delivers a lost art of rising torque as you are forced to chase the redline, from which just a few hundred RPM short, peak power is delivered. The noise is not only a glorious by-product, but a defining feature of the car.
The steering that felt slow and lethargic in town is now more alive and doesn't feel nervous and over-sensitive. Conversely, it could still probably do with a slightly quicker rack.
The M3 has a tendency to understeer a little bit and is not the tail happy lunatic that some may expect it to be. Sure, it'll do that too if pressed but the LSD does a really nice job of keeping good balance here and is predictable.
It is a car that probably has just enough power to be used within a good chunk of its limits on the road. It's not modern day ///M fast but that's the beauty of it.
The E46 M3 takes quite a while to understand and to bond with it. Takes time to understand the hype. You have to allow yourself to learn what it wants to do. It is a car which really rewards patience and desire to change driving style to the car's liking
They're for the large part reliable cars and will keep on going even through neglect. For a while.
Neglected or not, the big issues are rear subframe cracks, rust on rear arches and several issues with the otherwise brilliant S54. Those being Vanos (not as scary as it sounds), head gasket and big end bearings.
My vanos was done at 80K.
My head gasket is good still at 130K
Big end bearings changed at 130K. They were fine.
I've got a little bit of rear arch corrosion coming through which is now going to be the next job.
In summary, they're as great as the hype would have you believe, but being used as designed, on the right roads, on decent rubber and with all the suspension and bushes in good condition combined with the correct geometry.
Not a daily in my opinion. Maybe viable in 2005 but not 2023.
Good luck!
My 130i had lots of suspension bits about 4 years ago when I got it, but I went with Koni Special Active which I think was a mistake.
I'm certain I can feel them go all soft on rough roads (of which many around here are), and then the feel gets inconsistent just when you want it to slam the wheel down hard and give you confidence.
I'm not driving like a nutter, just making normal brisk progress on roads which my 335Xd (which many bemoan) handles without drama.
I've not yet stiffened up the rear subframe or gone for M arms/bushings.
With just new dampers (possibly back to OE, or Koni Sport (adjustable)), bushings, and then tracking again, it's probably £1,000. It's expensive 'testing' so to speak.
I suppose £1,000 is cheap 'all considered'... to see if the car is then right for the forseeable future.
I have images of it being right in my head, it's just getting it to that point, and not continuing to spend money and fall short.
To be fair I think the M3 is probably right up my street. I don't want an easy car to drive. I want one that needs effort and consideration.
I do a 5 mile run each way 3 days a week to drop my son at school, and then other random runs when needed.
The main consideration for the swap really would be a possible big cost event... I can absorb big general running costs and fixes knowing it's improving and keeping an older car going... but the rear subframe and general rusting away stuff does leave me a bit worried. However I know my 130i is quickly getting to a similar age wrt rust getting everywhere and so is a similar consideration.
I had an E85 3.0 Z4 previously which I was generally really happy with, I wish I'd kept it now but being a 2 seater it was a bit compromised with a family. It rode hard but was very communicative. Firm but comfy seats. Instant throttle response. Tons of induction noise. NVH. Etc.
Clearly designed to be a bit more communicative.
It feels a bit like an M3 is probably more tuned that way.
It's just figuring out the magical ingredients that make it like that, without making it a horrible mess.
I'm certain I can feel them go all soft on rough roads (of which many around here are), and then the feel gets inconsistent just when you want it to slam the wheel down hard and give you confidence.
I'm not driving like a nutter, just making normal brisk progress on roads which my 335Xd (which many bemoan) handles without drama.
I've not yet stiffened up the rear subframe or gone for M arms/bushings.
With just new dampers (possibly back to OE, or Koni Sport (adjustable)), bushings, and then tracking again, it's probably £1,000. It's expensive 'testing' so to speak.
I suppose £1,000 is cheap 'all considered'... to see if the car is then right for the forseeable future.
I have images of it being right in my head, it's just getting it to that point, and not continuing to spend money and fall short.
To be fair I think the M3 is probably right up my street. I don't want an easy car to drive. I want one that needs effort and consideration.
I do a 5 mile run each way 3 days a week to drop my son at school, and then other random runs when needed.
The main consideration for the swap really would be a possible big cost event... I can absorb big general running costs and fixes knowing it's improving and keeping an older car going... but the rear subframe and general rusting away stuff does leave me a bit worried. However I know my 130i is quickly getting to a similar age wrt rust getting everywhere and so is a similar consideration.
I had an E85 3.0 Z4 previously which I was generally really happy with, I wish I'd kept it now but being a 2 seater it was a bit compromised with a family. It rode hard but was very communicative. Firm but comfy seats. Instant throttle response. Tons of induction noise. NVH. Etc.
Clearly designed to be a bit more communicative.
It feels a bit like an M3 is probably more tuned that way.
It's just figuring out the magical ingredients that make it like that, without making it a horrible mess.
Be off your head to consider this. There's a lot more to changing a car than just the purchase price.
E46 M3 is 1 second faster over 1/4 mile. Is it worth it ?
I'm at 153,000 now in a 2005 plate 130i, few big jobs recently but still far cheaper in the long run.
Sell your LE, buy something else apart from a E46 M3 if you want rid.
Dougie.
I had a 130LE which I thought was a hoot to drive.
Mine came with Birds B1 suspension to which I added M3 LCA’s, camber plates and a good alignment at String Theory. I also removed the CDV and fitted M3 gearbox mounts. Sun frame inserts are supposed to make a decent difference firming it (mine are till in the garage).
I sold mine before fitting the rest of my suspension upgrades that I’d collected due to it being a bit small. I do miss it though, I really enjoyed it but the size became irritating.
I moved into a 335i, another halfway house car and I’m having thoughts of moving it on.
I’ve also been tempted by an E46 M3 but prices for good cars are really strong and there are some absolute dogs out there. I can deal with the mechanical bits but I’m not willing to get into yet world of chasing rust. I’m not sure a cab would be that much more dynamic either.
Mine came with Birds B1 suspension to which I added M3 LCA’s, camber plates and a good alignment at String Theory. I also removed the CDV and fitted M3 gearbox mounts. Sun frame inserts are supposed to make a decent difference firming it (mine are till in the garage).
I sold mine before fitting the rest of my suspension upgrades that I’d collected due to it being a bit small. I do miss it though, I really enjoyed it but the size became irritating.
I moved into a 335i, another halfway house car and I’m having thoughts of moving it on.
I’ve also been tempted by an E46 M3 but prices for good cars are really strong and there are some absolute dogs out there. I can deal with the mechanical bits but I’m not willing to get into yet world of chasing rust. I’m not sure a cab would be that much more dynamic either.
Court_S said:
I had a 130LE which I thought was a hoot to drive.
Mine came with Birds B1 suspension to which I added M3 LCA’s, camber plates and a good alignment at String Theory. I also removed the CDV and fitted M3 gearbox mounts. Sun frame inserts are supposed to make a decent difference firming it (mine are till in the garage).
I sold mine before fitting the rest of my suspension upgrades that I’d collected due to it being a bit small. I do miss it though, I really enjoyed it but the size became irritating.
I moved into a 335i, another halfway house car and I’m having thoughts of moving it on.
I’ve also been tempted by an E46 M3 but prices for good cars are really strong and there are some absolute dogs out there. I can deal with the mechanical bits but I’m not willing to get into yet world of chasing rust. I’m not sure a cab would be that much more dynamic either.
I’ve done quite a few of those mods, but not the M TCAs and sub-frame inserts etc.Mine came with Birds B1 suspension to which I added M3 LCA’s, camber plates and a good alignment at String Theory. I also removed the CDV and fitted M3 gearbox mounts. Sun frame inserts are supposed to make a decent difference firming it (mine are till in the garage).
I sold mine before fitting the rest of my suspension upgrades that I’d collected due to it being a bit small. I do miss it though, I really enjoyed it but the size became irritating.
I moved into a 335i, another halfway house car and I’m having thoughts of moving it on.
I’ve also been tempted by an E46 M3 but prices for good cars are really strong and there are some absolute dogs out there. I can deal with the mechanical bits but I’m not willing to get into yet world of chasing rust. I’m not sure a cab would be that much more dynamic either.
Interestingly I was reading a post on a US forum from about 2010 today, 135i owners and tyres.
Moving from RFT to non-RFT and their cars feeling very soft/numb/unengaging.
Stiff RFT probably meant softer bushings we’re used to give comfort and nvh isolation.
But fitting non-RFT on these cars specifically leaves them so numb and soft edged… it’s critical to ‘mod’ the tightness back in.
I’ll get the rear sub-frame inserts and M tie rods/TCAs and also refresh any old rubber bits and see what I get!
Still gonna go take a look at (and under) some M3 convertibles though… just to see…
Sam and me can talk at length on moving from well sorted 130i to the E92 335i. My 335i is also soon to go in for a complete brake and suspension upgrade that in parts alone is ~£2.5k. I think that the 130i can be made very good, but it would take probably double that spend to get it there. I'd be thinking:
For all your talk of vagueness, it may be worth considering some cars outside of BMWs. For example, before I had my 130i I had a Renault Sport Megane 265 Cup. That was an incredible car that reacted instantly to inputs. It was very firm at low speed though. Maybe something like the Renault Sport Clio 200 or Megane would fit what you feel you want?
- Coilovers - I had the Bilstein B12 kit which I think was OK for ~£400 but I am sure better suspension could deliver a better ride comfort/handling balance
- Full set of E92 M3 arms for more camber and better bushes
- Rear subframe inserts or replacement bushes/mounts for subframe, gearbox, dif etc.
- Lightweight wheels with a square tyre setup
- Replacement exhaust or gutting of stock backbox/res delete
- LSD
For all your talk of vagueness, it may be worth considering some cars outside of BMWs. For example, before I had my 130i I had a Renault Sport Megane 265 Cup. That was an incredible car that reacted instantly to inputs. It was very firm at low speed though. Maybe something like the Renault Sport Clio 200 or Megane would fit what you feel you want?
Mr Whippy said:
I’ve done quite a few of those mods, but not the M TCAs and sub-frame inserts etc.
Interestingly I was reading a post on a US forum from about 2010 today, 135i owners and tyres.
Moving from RFT to non-RFT and their cars feeling very soft/numb/unengaging.
Stiff RFT probably meant softer bushings we’re used to give comfort and nvh isolation.
But fitting non-RFT on these cars specifically leaves them so numb and soft edged… it’s critical to ‘mod’ the tightness back in.
I’ll get the rear sub-frame inserts and M tie rods/TCAs and also refresh any old rubber bits and see what I get!
Still gonna go take a look at (and under) some M3 convertibles though… just to see…
There’s no harm in looking at other things….it could help make your mind up one way or another.Interestingly I was reading a post on a US forum from about 2010 today, 135i owners and tyres.
Moving from RFT to non-RFT and their cars feeling very soft/numb/unengaging.
Stiff RFT probably meant softer bushings we’re used to give comfort and nvh isolation.
But fitting non-RFT on these cars specifically leaves them so numb and soft edged… it’s critical to ‘mod’ the tightness back in.
I’ll get the rear sub-frame inserts and M tie rods/TCAs and also refresh any old rubber bits and see what I get!
Still gonna go take a look at (and under) some M3 convertibles though… just to see…
The M3 suspension upgrades make a solid improvement and the TRW parts with the ///M logo ground off are not expensive from Autodoc. I’d sling on the tension struts as well. I did the two upper rear arms as well; not sure they make a huge difference but are cheap enough.
The extra negative camber on my 130i from the LCA’s and camber plates really improved the steering feel. I bought my camber plates from a chap on BabyBMW, plus they help to stop the front dropping too low.
What tyres are you running on yours? I had PS4’s on my 130i, but both my 335i and her 125i are on GY which are supposed to have slightly stuffer sidewalls.
roadie said:
Sam and me can talk at length on moving from well sorted 130i to the E92 335i. My 335i is also soon to go in for a complete brake and suspension upgrade that in parts alone is ~£2.5k. I think that the 130i can be made very good, but it would take probably double that spend to get it there. I'd be thinking:
For all your talk of vagueness, it may be worth considering some cars outside of BMWs. For example, before I had my 130i I had a Renault Sport Megane 265 Cup. That was an incredible car that reacted instantly to inputs. It was very firm at low speed though. Maybe something like the Renault Sport Clio 200 or Megane would fit what you feel you want?
Mine was an LE, so I had the 216 wheels made by BBS which whilst no lightweights were a chunk lighter than the 208M boat anchors that they came with as standard.- Coilovers - I had the Bilstein B12 kit which I think was OK for ~£400 but I am sure better suspension could deliver a better ride comfort/handling balance
- Full set of E92 M3 arms for more camber and better bushes
- Rear subframe inserts or replacement bushes/mounts for subframe, gearbox, dif etc.
- Lightweight wheels with a square tyre setup
- Replacement exhaust or gutting of stock backbox/res delete
- LSD
For all your talk of vagueness, it may be worth considering some cars outside of BMWs. For example, before I had my 130i I had a Renault Sport Megane 265 Cup. That was an incredible car that reacted instantly to inputs. It was very firm at low speed though. Maybe something like the Renault Sport Clio 200 or Megane would fit what you feel you want?
I really rated the Birds set up on my car but sone say it’s too soft especially on track (not an issue for my cars to be fair). It was a lot less harsh and better controlled than the B12 set on my friends 125i.
HJG said:
I've had my E46 M3 for eight years.
For the last year it hasn't been driven, until last month where my daily diesel was giving me trouble, so I had to turn to the M3 as the daily.
I couldn't wait to get out of it and back into my normal daily.
What I realised though was just how good of a car it actually is. Everything works. It does everything a 'car' should. Why then did I want out?
Modern cars have a great ability to hide their weight. Steering and controls are lighter. Everything more sensitive. Engines are calibrated for low down torque with a flat torque curve across the useful rev range.
The E46 M3 is not a light car and you can feel it particularly at low speed. The steering feels slow and heavy. The clutch is heavier than modern stuff. The gearbox is clunky when cold and isn't the best manual 'box around anyway. The whole car can feel clunky and heavy around town.
On the motorway it's much happier, but you'll not see any more than 30mpg (probably doesn't matter but worth mentioning). The sound system is outdated (unless HK).
All of the above was daily driving and nothing exciting.
The reason I've kept the car and can't wait to get back into it for non daily duties is that it is a gateway to analogue, naturally aspirated greatness.
Once out of town and warmed up, the S54 delivers a lost art of rising torque as you are forced to chase the redline, from which just a few hundred RPM short, peak power is delivered. The noise is not only a glorious by-product, but a defining feature of the car.
The steering that felt slow and lethargic in town is now more alive and doesn't feel nervous and over-sensitive. Conversely, it could still probably do with a slightly quicker rack.
The M3 has a tendency to understeer a little bit and is not the tail happy lunatic that some may expect it to be. Sure, it'll do that too if pressed but the LSD does a really nice job of keeping good balance here and is predictable.
It is a car that probably has just enough power to be used within a good chunk of its limits on the road. It's not modern day ///M fast but that's the beauty of it.
The E46 M3 takes quite a while to understand and to bond with it. Takes time to understand the hype. You have to allow yourself to learn what it wants to do. It is a car which really rewards patience and desire to change driving style to the car's liking
They're for the large part reliable cars and will keep on going even through neglect. For a while.
Neglected or not, the big issues are rear subframe cracks, rust on rear arches and several issues with the otherwise brilliant S54. Those being Vanos (not as scary as it sounds), head gasket and big end bearings.
My vanos was done at 80K.
My head gasket is good still at 130K
Big end bearings changed at 130K. They were fine.
I've got a little bit of rear arch corrosion coming through which is now going to be the next job.
In summary, they're as great as the hype would have you believe, but being used as designed, on the right roads, on decent rubber and with all the suspension and bushes in good condition combined with the correct geometry.
Not a daily in my opinion. Maybe viable in 2005 but not 2023.
Good luck!
That is a great and honest write up I reckon. Your experience of the E46 M3 mirrors the way I felt about my manual E92 M3 as a daily too. I'm also similar where I have a 370Z as an occasional car(manual/NA/LSD/hydraulic steering etc), but I wouldn't be rushing to use it as a daily either though. Whereas I do really appreciate the F82 M4 DCT as a daily(electric steering/lots of easy low down torque/fast gearbox etc) in comparison. For the last year it hasn't been driven, until last month where my daily diesel was giving me trouble, so I had to turn to the M3 as the daily.
I couldn't wait to get out of it and back into my normal daily.
What I realised though was just how good of a car it actually is. Everything works. It does everything a 'car' should. Why then did I want out?
Modern cars have a great ability to hide their weight. Steering and controls are lighter. Everything more sensitive. Engines are calibrated for low down torque with a flat torque curve across the useful rev range.
The E46 M3 is not a light car and you can feel it particularly at low speed. The steering feels slow and heavy. The clutch is heavier than modern stuff. The gearbox is clunky when cold and isn't the best manual 'box around anyway. The whole car can feel clunky and heavy around town.
On the motorway it's much happier, but you'll not see any more than 30mpg (probably doesn't matter but worth mentioning). The sound system is outdated (unless HK).
All of the above was daily driving and nothing exciting.
The reason I've kept the car and can't wait to get back into it for non daily duties is that it is a gateway to analogue, naturally aspirated greatness.
Once out of town and warmed up, the S54 delivers a lost art of rising torque as you are forced to chase the redline, from which just a few hundred RPM short, peak power is delivered. The noise is not only a glorious by-product, but a defining feature of the car.
The steering that felt slow and lethargic in town is now more alive and doesn't feel nervous and over-sensitive. Conversely, it could still probably do with a slightly quicker rack.
The M3 has a tendency to understeer a little bit and is not the tail happy lunatic that some may expect it to be. Sure, it'll do that too if pressed but the LSD does a really nice job of keeping good balance here and is predictable.
It is a car that probably has just enough power to be used within a good chunk of its limits on the road. It's not modern day ///M fast but that's the beauty of it.
The E46 M3 takes quite a while to understand and to bond with it. Takes time to understand the hype. You have to allow yourself to learn what it wants to do. It is a car which really rewards patience and desire to change driving style to the car's liking
They're for the large part reliable cars and will keep on going even through neglect. For a while.
Neglected or not, the big issues are rear subframe cracks, rust on rear arches and several issues with the otherwise brilliant S54. Those being Vanos (not as scary as it sounds), head gasket and big end bearings.
My vanos was done at 80K.
My head gasket is good still at 130K
Big end bearings changed at 130K. They were fine.
I've got a little bit of rear arch corrosion coming through which is now going to be the next job.
In summary, they're as great as the hype would have you believe, but being used as designed, on the right roads, on decent rubber and with all the suspension and bushes in good condition combined with the correct geometry.
Not a daily in my opinion. Maybe viable in 2005 but not 2023.
Good luck!
I’ve briefly looked at M140i manual, which with similar spend to my 130i (lots of M bits to sharpen it basically), and it might be quite interesting.
My main gripe and it’s shared with my F30, is the daft lack of fine control of settings.
Ie, the auto blip being present except in sport+ is it?
The exhaust being loud only in sport?
Etc.
I’d have to spend £££ on remap/gear to get this set to tastes.
I think my biggest issue with my car is not being exciting at slower speeds. It has nothing going on.
It’s hiding all the nvh and noise and stuff for ‘comfort’ but I really would prefer it to keep me awake and interested.
It’s odd in this kind of car that it’s all been subdued quite so much.
But I think I’m going to spend about £1,000 on tyres and linkages/bushings to try get the wheels tightened up, the steering more alive, and more noise/nvh into the car.
Maybe strip out some sound deadening materials so I get the gearbox and engine mech noise coming in too… not all of it, just some of it…
My main gripe and it’s shared with my F30, is the daft lack of fine control of settings.
Ie, the auto blip being present except in sport+ is it?
The exhaust being loud only in sport?
Etc.
I’d have to spend £££ on remap/gear to get this set to tastes.
I think my biggest issue with my car is not being exciting at slower speeds. It has nothing going on.
It’s hiding all the nvh and noise and stuff for ‘comfort’ but I really would prefer it to keep me awake and interested.
It’s odd in this kind of car that it’s all been subdued quite so much.
But I think I’m going to spend about £1,000 on tyres and linkages/bushings to try get the wheels tightened up, the steering more alive, and more noise/nvh into the car.
Maybe strip out some sound deadening materials so I get the gearbox and engine mech noise coming in too… not all of it, just some of it…
Court_S said:
If a 130i isn’t sharp enough, this would be a massive step back. Faster yes, but way more woolly (as an ex owner of a very disappointing M140i).
I've never driven one, going by reviews when they came out. They have loads of mods you can do to them. I've had a 130i LE but I went from that to an V10 M6
I modded mine, I went for the Bilstein B12 Sportline Suspension Kit which made a big difference. My brother has a 125i Coupe with Eiback Pro springs which feels like its on some cheapo rock hard springs. The b12 is so much better and it was lower which is what I wanted.
Looks like some of the links and pictures still work...this was 2014!
https://www.babybmw.net/threads/bmw-e81-limited-ed...
Edited by VeeTenM on Thursday 5th January 23:01
Mr Whippy said:
My 130i had lots of suspension bits about 4 years ago when I got it, but I went with Koni Special Active which I think was a mistake.
I'm certain I can feel them go all soft on rough roads (of which many around here are), and then the feel gets inconsistent just when you want it to slam the wheel down hard and give you confidence.
I'm not driving like a nutter, just making normal brisk progress on roads which my 335Xd (which many bemoan) handles without drama.
I've not yet stiffened up the rear subframe or gone for M arms/bushings.
With just new dampers (possibly back to OE, or Koni Sport (adjustable)), bushings, and then tracking again, it's probably £1,000. It's expensive 'testing' so to speak.
I suppose £1,000 is cheap 'all considered'... to see if the car is then right for the forseeable future.
I have images of it being right in my head, it's just getting it to that point, and not continuing to spend money and fall short.
To be fair I think the M3 is probably right up my street. I don't want an easy car to drive. I want one that needs effort and consideration.
I do a 5 mile run each way 3 days a week to drop my son at school, and then other random runs when needed.
The main consideration for the swap really would be a possible big cost event... I can absorb big general running costs and fixes knowing it's improving and keeping an older car going... but the rear subframe and general rusting away stuff does leave me a bit worried. However I know my 130i is quickly getting to a similar age wrt rust getting everywhere and so is a similar consideration.
I had an E85 3.0 Z4 previously which I was generally really happy with, I wish I'd kept it now but being a 2 seater it was a bit compromised with a family. It rode hard but was very communicative. Firm but comfy seats. Instant throttle response. Tons of induction noise. NVH. Etc.
Clearly designed to be a bit more communicative.
It feels a bit like an M3 is probably more tuned that way.
It's just figuring out the magical ingredients that make it like that, without making it a horrible mess.
I’ve driven a few different passive dampers with mechanisms to improve ride… some have frequency dependent damping, some travel dependent.I'm certain I can feel them go all soft on rough roads (of which many around here are), and then the feel gets inconsistent just when you want it to slam the wheel down hard and give you confidence.
I'm not driving like a nutter, just making normal brisk progress on roads which my 335Xd (which many bemoan) handles without drama.
I've not yet stiffened up the rear subframe or gone for M arms/bushings.
With just new dampers (possibly back to OE, or Koni Sport (adjustable)), bushings, and then tracking again, it's probably £1,000. It's expensive 'testing' so to speak.
I suppose £1,000 is cheap 'all considered'... to see if the car is then right for the forseeable future.
I have images of it being right in my head, it's just getting it to that point, and not continuing to spend money and fall short.
To be fair I think the M3 is probably right up my street. I don't want an easy car to drive. I want one that needs effort and consideration.
I do a 5 mile run each way 3 days a week to drop my son at school, and then other random runs when needed.
The main consideration for the swap really would be a possible big cost event... I can absorb big general running costs and fixes knowing it's improving and keeping an older car going... but the rear subframe and general rusting away stuff does leave me a bit worried. However I know my 130i is quickly getting to a similar age wrt rust getting everywhere and so is a similar consideration.
I had an E85 3.0 Z4 previously which I was generally really happy with, I wish I'd kept it now but being a 2 seater it was a bit compromised with a family. It rode hard but was very communicative. Firm but comfy seats. Instant throttle response. Tons of induction noise. NVH. Etc.
Clearly designed to be a bit more communicative.
It feels a bit like an M3 is probably more tuned that way.
It's just figuring out the magical ingredients that make it like that, without making it a horrible mess.
They are generally not a good choice for drivers looking for a connected feel. At exactly the point you would like crispness, you get sogginess…
Drive some other 130i with different dampers, if you can.
VeeTenM said:
I've never driven one, going by reviews when they came out. They have loads of mods you can do to them.
I've had a 130i LE but I went from that to an V10 M6
I modded mine, I went for the Bilstein B12 Sportline Suspension Kit which made a big difference. My brother has a 125i Coupe with Eiback Pro springs which feels like its on some cheapo rock hard springs. The b12 is so much better and it was lower which is what I wanted.
Looks like some of the links and pictures still work...this was 2014!
https://www.babybmw.net/threads/bmw-e81-limited-ed...
It’s an expensive game though sorting the F2x chassis. Mine was better wiry B8 dampers, springs and the underbody brace but it still left a lot to be desired. The later EPAS is worse than that of the older cars too. An LSD is supposed to make a huge difference too.I've had a 130i LE but I went from that to an V10 M6
I modded mine, I went for the Bilstein B12 Sportline Suspension Kit which made a big difference. My brother has a 125i Coupe with Eiback Pro springs which feels like its on some cheapo rock hard springs. The b12 is so much better and it was lower which is what I wanted.
Looks like some of the links and pictures still work...this was 2014!
https://www.babybmw.net/threads/bmw-e81-limited-ed...
Edited by VeeTenM on Thursday 5th January 23:01
I thought the B12 on the E8x was a bit harsh to be honest, especially at lower speeds. My 130i with Birds suspension and 18’s rode loads better than my mates 125i with Bilstein B12 and 17’s. Obviously there’s a chunky price difference between the two.
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