e30 M3 impressions
Discussion
I'm wondering, how expensive is running an E30 M3 as an everyday car?
I drove my first ever E30 M3 today... the experience was different to what the legend has been built up to be, and it impressed in areas that I hadn't expected it to. I imagined myself saying 'its fun but is of course compromised because of that', but it didn't turn out to be. However it was only for a shortish drive around some local twisty roads though, so far from thorough!
The car's owner used to have a 993 GT2, 360 manual, now a F430 on order so, you know...
My daily car is an '86 190E so is of a similar period, which made an interesting comparison for me.
So my version of a true classic goes like this:.
Initially impressed by the supple ride quality and the ordinariness of it (even though that sounds like a criticism). It feels like some old banger that just by chance happens to be fun to drive, this is what has made me think about using one as a daily driver.
It didn't give me a confident impression that I was in instant control, that I could thrash it there and then without ending up in a ditch, but then again it was starting to snow (!!), and the best cars probably take a bit (lot) of learning.
What surprised me? The engine is only OK. A smooth power delivery and nicely tuned N/A unit which revs and accelerates linearly, but was more dull and less explosive than I hoped from an M-power unit, four cylinders of 2.3 litres or no. It also sounded as bad as my 190E, in spite of the tuning, individual throttles and twin cams, which was a shame.. I at least hoped for it to sound as good as, say, a type R Honda.
It is not fast. It's sad to say but if you wonder if it is fast enough for you, then my advice would be that no, it is not!
. I was disappointed and I drive a 122bhp 4-speed automatic which has dust on the 'E' side of the gearbox switch because it is rarely taken out of Economy mode. I'm still thinking the M3's carpet must have been stuck under the accelerator. In fact I might go and check. Any V8 barge is faster, some modern diesels feel faster. As a unit, the engine felt most similar to my 2.0 Mercedes, hard to believe though that must sound! Then again they hail from the same era!
The gearbox (shared with the Mercedes 16v cosworth) is also terrible. I quite liked the dog-leg layout, but the change is amazingly long, jolly ponderous and sometimes wouldn't engage, perhaps because I just strangely couldn't find a gear??
Yet I found that all this gelled to make a car that felt just so right even when doing 30mph in top, and the fun only increased from there.
It feels the size and weight of a Mk II Golf, in fact it feels miniature by todays standards, but still maintains a feeling that you're driving a half-sensible saloon car not a tinny hatchback, and rides better than most hatches. If such a great handling car can ride so well, why is a Toyota Yaris so god damn awful?
Yet the car's established foibles show only that noone was trying too hard to make a 'perfect' car, instead they just made one that did a job and let a the public buy it, if they wanted. And perhaps that does make a perfect car? It's the ultimate E30 3-series, not an E30 twisted and deformed into something it's not.
I worry that the new V8 M3, though it will most likely impress unanimously by being stunning, blisteringly fast, having an exhaust switchover valve to sound great and sat nav and computerized 0.00001 second gearchange and carbon fibre doorhandles, has probably already missed the point. The fact that they know they are building it is already enough to make them try too hard. They probably have a computer connected to an E30 M3 test car now, which is measuring 'driving fun'. Maybe they're figuring out how to get 20" wheels to fit, even though they don't make it any better a car. I dunno.
I would miss the 190E's refinment, quality and modernity though.. hmmm, what's a 190E cosworth like?
Russ
(Sorry, a strange disjointed post that one)
>>> Edited by pentoman on Wednesday 23 February 23:34
>>> Edited by pentoman on Thursday 24th February 00:04
I drove my first ever E30 M3 today... the experience was different to what the legend has been built up to be, and it impressed in areas that I hadn't expected it to. I imagined myself saying 'its fun but is of course compromised because of that', but it didn't turn out to be. However it was only for a shortish drive around some local twisty roads though, so far from thorough!
The car's owner used to have a 993 GT2, 360 manual, now a F430 on order so, you know...
My daily car is an '86 190E so is of a similar period, which made an interesting comparison for me.
So my version of a true classic goes like this:.
Initially impressed by the supple ride quality and the ordinariness of it (even though that sounds like a criticism). It feels like some old banger that just by chance happens to be fun to drive, this is what has made me think about using one as a daily driver.
It didn't give me a confident impression that I was in instant control, that I could thrash it there and then without ending up in a ditch, but then again it was starting to snow (!!), and the best cars probably take a bit (lot) of learning.
What surprised me? The engine is only OK. A smooth power delivery and nicely tuned N/A unit which revs and accelerates linearly, but was more dull and less explosive than I hoped from an M-power unit, four cylinders of 2.3 litres or no. It also sounded as bad as my 190E, in spite of the tuning, individual throttles and twin cams, which was a shame.. I at least hoped for it to sound as good as, say, a type R Honda.
It is not fast. It's sad to say but if you wonder if it is fast enough for you, then my advice would be that no, it is not!
. I was disappointed and I drive a 122bhp 4-speed automatic which has dust on the 'E' side of the gearbox switch because it is rarely taken out of Economy mode. I'm still thinking the M3's carpet must have been stuck under the accelerator. In fact I might go and check. Any V8 barge is faster, some modern diesels feel faster. As a unit, the engine felt most similar to my 2.0 Mercedes, hard to believe though that must sound! Then again they hail from the same era! The gearbox (shared with the Mercedes 16v cosworth) is also terrible. I quite liked the dog-leg layout, but the change is amazingly long, jolly ponderous and sometimes wouldn't engage, perhaps because I just strangely couldn't find a gear??
Yet I found that all this gelled to make a car that felt just so right even when doing 30mph in top, and the fun only increased from there.
It feels the size and weight of a Mk II Golf, in fact it feels miniature by todays standards, but still maintains a feeling that you're driving a half-sensible saloon car not a tinny hatchback, and rides better than most hatches. If such a great handling car can ride so well, why is a Toyota Yaris so god damn awful?
Yet the car's established foibles show only that noone was trying too hard to make a 'perfect' car, instead they just made one that did a job and let a the public buy it, if they wanted. And perhaps that does make a perfect car? It's the ultimate E30 3-series, not an E30 twisted and deformed into something it's not.
I worry that the new V8 M3, though it will most likely impress unanimously by being stunning, blisteringly fast, having an exhaust switchover valve to sound great and sat nav and computerized 0.00001 second gearchange and carbon fibre doorhandles, has probably already missed the point. The fact that they know they are building it is already enough to make them try too hard. They probably have a computer connected to an E30 M3 test car now, which is measuring 'driving fun'. Maybe they're figuring out how to get 20" wheels to fit, even though they don't make it any better a car. I dunno.
I would miss the 190E's refinment, quality and modernity though.. hmmm, what's a 190E cosworth like?
Russ
(Sorry, a strange disjointed post that one)
>>> Edited by pentoman on Wednesday 23 February 23:34
>>> Edited by pentoman on Thursday 24th February 00:04
Me and my collegue were discussing this, but Mercedes have pulled out some gems in their times that have gone un-noticed.
The 5 multilink rear suspension put them way ahead of the game in the 80s IMO.
Compare it to the rear of the E30.
It allowed Mercs to have a softly sprung rear end while not compromising handling too badly because of superior wheel location compared to semi trailing arms.
I've only ever driven a bog stock 190E. What does a 190E 2.3 Cosworthor 2.5 EVO handle like compared to an E30 M3?
The 5 multilink rear suspension put them way ahead of the game in the 80s IMO.
Compare it to the rear of the E30.
It allowed Mercs to have a softly sprung rear end while not compromising handling too badly because of superior wheel location compared to semi trailing arms.
I've only ever driven a bog stock 190E. What does a 190E 2.3 Cosworthor 2.5 EVO handle like compared to an E30 M3?
I think anyone who is considering an e30 M3 as a daily driver needs to really consider what they are doing.
I have one as my track day/ocassional use car, however it used to be my daily driver and I still prefer it now to my current daily driver (E46 Tourer).
If you are looking for wafty acceleration in any gear, don't buy one.
If you are into traffic light grand prix, don't buy one.
If you like to boast about how much bhp you have, don't buy one.
If you drive one and think it would have been a better car with the straight 6 in it, don't buy one.
If you are not prepared to look after it and pay M power costs for parts, don't buy one. (they are very reliable and are better being driven than stored)
If you like 18"+ wheels and blacked out windows, don't buy one.
If on the other hand you like to feel alive when you drive your car, this is the car for you.
In terms of speed, they are quick, but need to be driven. Lazy drivers need not apply. They need to be abused to go quickly, fun starts at 5000 rpm+ and carries on right up to the red line at 7250 ish. You need to attack corners in them, carrying speed and momentum is everything, then the balance and feel comes. Ultimately, they are best saved for track days, by the time they get interesting to drive you are well into licence losing territory.
HTH
I have one as my track day/ocassional use car, however it used to be my daily driver and I still prefer it now to my current daily driver (E46 Tourer).
If you are looking for wafty acceleration in any gear, don't buy one.
If you are into traffic light grand prix, don't buy one.
If you like to boast about how much bhp you have, don't buy one.
If you drive one and think it would have been a better car with the straight 6 in it, don't buy one.
If you are not prepared to look after it and pay M power costs for parts, don't buy one. (they are very reliable and are better being driven than stored)
If you like 18"+ wheels and blacked out windows, don't buy one.
If on the other hand you like to feel alive when you drive your car, this is the car for you.
In terms of speed, they are quick, but need to be driven. Lazy drivers need not apply. They need to be abused to go quickly, fun starts at 5000 rpm+ and carries on right up to the red line at 7250 ish. You need to attack corners in them, carrying speed and momentum is everything, then the balance and feel comes. Ultimately, they are best saved for track days, by the time they get interesting to drive you are well into licence losing territory.
HTH
Agree totally with the above. Mine is a very smooth, comfortable car to drive very quiet up to 100 mph plus. Its not hugely quick and you do have to be prepared to grab it by the scruff of the neck and really drive it to get the performance. Handling is everything with the M3, the way it carries speed into the corners is remarkable and you can soon show a clean pair of heels to some quite exotic machinery on the twisty stuff.
Mine returns 25 mpg around town and I've had over 30 on a long run.
Buy one ... you won't regret it.
Mine returns 25 mpg around town and I've had over 30 on a long run.
Buy one ... you won't regret it.
Slightly OT but deffo connected.
Understood the E30 325 'motorsport' convertible to be the thinking mans sporty E30 not the M3. I have friend with one that swears it is rarer, there are a lot of copies like the M3 but less than 150 or something.
He claims it to be probably the best alround E30 out there; 6 pot lump, close ratio gearbox, LSD, sports suspension, MS body bits, leather, convertible!
Comments please so I can agree with him or beat him round the head with it
.
Harry
Understood the E30 325 'motorsport' convertible to be the thinking mans sporty E30 not the M3. I have friend with one that swears it is rarer, there are a lot of copies like the M3 but less than 150 or something.
He claims it to be probably the best alround E30 out there; 6 pot lump, close ratio gearbox, LSD, sports suspension, MS body bits, leather, convertible!
Comments please so I can agree with him or beat him round the head with it
. Harry
HarryW said:
Slightly OT but deffo connected.
Understood the E30 325 'motorsport' convertible to be the thinking mans sporty E30 not the M3. I have friend with one that swears it is rarer, there are a lot of copies like the M3 but less than 150 or something.
He claims it to be probably the best alround E30 out there; 6 pot lump, close ratio gearbox, LSD, sports suspension, MS body bits, leather, convertible!
Comments please so I can agree with him or beat him round the head with it
Harry
you friend is right in one sense it is a rare car and does look good, but it is not even close to an E30 M3 in terms of sportiness, the thinking man's E30 IMO is the 320is from Italy with the 2ltr S14 unit (192bhp) and the sport body, very stealthy and handled well, you can pick good examples of those up for about £3.5K
Surely the thinking man's E30 M3 has gotta be the 190E 16v?
Come to think of it, who is this 'thinking man', maybe we should ask him. These days he'd probably say it's a Honda anyway.
The 320is is a curious one, in that it's roughly a 2.0 litre M3 (for tax purposes) yet comes without the flared arches of the M3.? oddball.
Come to think of it, who is this 'thinking man', maybe we should ask him. These days he'd probably say it's a Honda anyway.
The 320is is a curious one, in that it's roughly a 2.0 litre M3 (for tax purposes) yet comes without the flared arches of the M3.? oddball.
The old E30 M3 chestnut 'it's not really that fast etc...'
in its day it WAS fast in a straight line AND round bends, I remember thinking a Golf MK11 16v was quick with 139bhp wow! The M3 has between 60and 100bhp more depending on model. By today's hp obsessed world it is puny, the irony is of course that you can't use your 500bhp Merc anywhere except on a track, don't get me wrong 500bhp is a hell of a lot of fun, but on todays camera infested roads 220bhp is enough for me.
The thing about the M3 is whilst it can handle much more power it is perfectly allied to the car for fast road driving, the power never overcomes the grip, so your foot just stays nailed to the floor.
The handling is sublime especially if you have never experienced RWD before, like me, it is a great car to learn on. Beward it can still bite, best RWD car to learn on is an MX5.
I do not know what condition the car you drove was in, but I love the sound of the engine, to me it is a real race car scream (at 7300rpm as it bounces off the limiter!) Sounds like a box of nails when cold though but even that adds to the charm, I love it when people hear it expecting some 6 cylinder smooth charm and they get this gruff racing engine ('only a four cylinder eh?')
The gearbox I agree does not have the best action in the world, I love the dogleg but as you say the throw is a bit long but again this car is all about driving it and the same goes for the gearbox, you have to be a buit aggressive when you change gear and slam it in and then it all starts to make sense. It is extremely tough, this is why they used it, reputed to be able to handle well over 500bhp.
Anyway you either get this car or you don't, but I have kept up with many much more powerful cars and to me it is all about the grin factor and this car has it in spades, it makes me fell good evertime I get in it and now the best thing about it is noone except people in the know, have a clue what it is.
One guy pulled beside me at a set of traffic light recently and said the immortal words:
'is it real mate?!'
in its day it WAS fast in a straight line AND round bends, I remember thinking a Golf MK11 16v was quick with 139bhp wow! The M3 has between 60and 100bhp more depending on model. By today's hp obsessed world it is puny, the irony is of course that you can't use your 500bhp Merc anywhere except on a track, don't get me wrong 500bhp is a hell of a lot of fun, but on todays camera infested roads 220bhp is enough for me.
The thing about the M3 is whilst it can handle much more power it is perfectly allied to the car for fast road driving, the power never overcomes the grip, so your foot just stays nailed to the floor.
The handling is sublime especially if you have never experienced RWD before, like me, it is a great car to learn on. Beward it can still bite, best RWD car to learn on is an MX5.
I do not know what condition the car you drove was in, but I love the sound of the engine, to me it is a real race car scream (at 7300rpm as it bounces off the limiter!) Sounds like a box of nails when cold though but even that adds to the charm, I love it when people hear it expecting some 6 cylinder smooth charm and they get this gruff racing engine ('only a four cylinder eh?')
The gearbox I agree does not have the best action in the world, I love the dogleg but as you say the throw is a bit long but again this car is all about driving it and the same goes for the gearbox, you have to be a buit aggressive when you change gear and slam it in and then it all starts to make sense. It is extremely tough, this is why they used it, reputed to be able to handle well over 500bhp.
Anyway you either get this car or you don't, but I have kept up with many much more powerful cars and to me it is all about the grin factor and this car has it in spades, it makes me fell good evertime I get in it and now the best thing about it is noone except people in the know, have a clue what it is.
One guy pulled beside me at a set of traffic light recently and said the immortal words:
'is it real mate?!'
I have an E30 M3 that I use everyday . I wouldn't advise anyone to buy one for such use for a few reasons....
1. Most examples are old and all but the best have rust somewhere . Using them all the time will make it worse for a car that could be up to 19 years old.These are great cars that should be used , just not wasted on journeys like going to and from work.If you have a good car, then don't ruin it by driving it in weather like we have now.
2. Most cars are at an age where they now need some work to bring them back up to a nice standard.Using them daily will will just mean you paying out for driving in bad weather , racking up the miles for little enjoyment in the commute to work .They are not cheap to try and keep to a high standard and if you are only doing ' wasted miles ' , whats the point ?
3.If you drive some thing normal and dull , then you will find the M3 so much more fun when you go for a blast.
A few other points . They are fairly slow by todays standard in a straight line. The dog leg box is ok if you don't abuse it, the layshaft bearings can go very quickly otherwise. It's not the best shifting box on a car, but can be sorted without too much expense.
If you want to learn car control and all about RWD , there's little to better it.It's an old clique with M3 owners , but it really is a handling car first and foremost . Get it on a track and you won't fail to grin like an idiot .
1. Most examples are old and all but the best have rust somewhere . Using them all the time will make it worse for a car that could be up to 19 years old.These are great cars that should be used , just not wasted on journeys like going to and from work.If you have a good car, then don't ruin it by driving it in weather like we have now.
2. Most cars are at an age where they now need some work to bring them back up to a nice standard.Using them daily will will just mean you paying out for driving in bad weather , racking up the miles for little enjoyment in the commute to work .They are not cheap to try and keep to a high standard and if you are only doing ' wasted miles ' , whats the point ?
3.If you drive some thing normal and dull , then you will find the M3 so much more fun when you go for a blast.
A few other points . They are fairly slow by todays standard in a straight line. The dog leg box is ok if you don't abuse it, the layshaft bearings can go very quickly otherwise. It's not the best shifting box on a car, but can be sorted without too much expense.
If you want to learn car control and all about RWD , there's little to better it.It's an old clique with M3 owners , but it really is a handling car first and foremost . Get it on a track and you won't fail to grin like an idiot .
BMGM3 said:
I have an E30 M3 that I use everyday . I wouldn't advise anyone to buy one for such use for a few reasons....
1. Most examples are old and all but the best have rust somewhere . Using them all the time will make it worse for a car that could be up to 19 years old.These are great cars that should be used , just not wasted on journeys like going to and from work.If you have a good car, then don't ruin it by driving it in weather like we have now.
2. Most cars are at an age where they now need some work to bring them back up to a nice standard.Using them daily will will just mean you paying out for driving in bad weather , racking up the miles for little enjoyment in the commute to work .They are not cheap to try and keep to a high standard and if you are only doing ' wasted miles ' , whats the point ?
3.If you drive some thing normal and dull , then you will find the M3 so much more fun when you go for a blast.
A few other points . They are fairly slow by todays standard in a straight line. The dog leg box is ok if you don't abuse it, the layshaft bearings can go very quickly otherwise. It's not the best shifting box on a car, but can be sorted without too much expense.
If you want to learn car control and all about RWD , there's little to better it.It's an old clique with M3 owners , but it really is a handling car first and foremost . Get it on a track and you won't fail to grin like an idiot .
Point 1.
I have a 190E 2.5-16V, i use it everyday and have put 20,000miles on it since May 2004. Not using it everyday is a poor excuse for shit build quality, overly fussy owners and w*nkers who idiolise
all. Point 2.
If you can't afford to maintain what were quite expensive cars as new, don't buy one.
I do not use mine everyday because I live in London and have a Renault 5 to pootle about town in, if I lived in the countryside and every drive to work involved a B road you bet I would use it everyday as I would not be able to resist, I do agree that just going up and down a motorway is a bit if a waste with a car like this, but they were so well built, I think they could take it if you look after them.
The 190E was and is a great car a friend had one for a couple of years and it was extremely impressive but to me a slightly different car, it is heavier had a much better interior and felt a bit more luxurious, it handled almost as well!!
He loved it to bits right up until the day the engine blew up, and he looked after it religiously!
This era of car I still havea soft spot for as these were the cars I yearned after when I could not quite afford them or I was too young to drive but old enough to watch them racing, I think it is possibly the last of the great drivers cars, modern cars, generally speaking, do nothing for me, which I why I intend to keep my M3 for as long as I can, she is my mistress.
The 190E was and is a great car a friend had one for a couple of years and it was extremely impressive but to me a slightly different car, it is heavier had a much better interior and felt a bit more luxurious, it handled almost as well!!
He loved it to bits right up until the day the engine blew up, and he looked after it religiously!
This era of car I still havea soft spot for as these were the cars I yearned after when I could not quite afford them or I was too young to drive but old enough to watch them racing, I think it is possibly the last of the great drivers cars, modern cars, generally speaking, do nothing for me, which I why I intend to keep my M3 for as long as I can, she is my mistress.
I consider myself lucky as I currently enjoy the best of BMW world, in my opinion. I have an Alpina B10 Bi-Turbo and an E30 M3. The irony is I sold the M3 to buy the B10 but missed it so much I had to have another.
To get the most out of the M3 you must have a real purpose for it, as there's no doubt in my mind that it's only at it's best when being completely thrashed - high cornering speeds will put it on a par with lots of modern stuff.
The engine is in it's element above 5000 RPM and if kept there will give you the fun you are looking for. It was built for the track and that's where I enjoy it most. Sure it's not quick getting up to speed but once there you don't have to slow down for much.
It's not a shopping car, or a commuting car - buy a Golf or something for cheap running around.
With the M3, buy the best example for your budget and maintain it properly. Maintenance of a good car will cost less than bringing a poor one up to scratch. That said, servicing is not cheap and high mileage cars will need new shocks, bushes etc to feel like an M3 should.
Favourite rust points on an E30 are under the windscreen on the scuttle.
Good luck,
Dave.
To get the most out of the M3 you must have a real purpose for it, as there's no doubt in my mind that it's only at it's best when being completely thrashed - high cornering speeds will put it on a par with lots of modern stuff.
The engine is in it's element above 5000 RPM and if kept there will give you the fun you are looking for. It was built for the track and that's where I enjoy it most. Sure it's not quick getting up to speed but once there you don't have to slow down for much.
It's not a shopping car, or a commuting car - buy a Golf or something for cheap running around.
With the M3, buy the best example for your budget and maintain it properly. Maintenance of a good car will cost less than bringing a poor one up to scratch. That said, servicing is not cheap and high mileage cars will need new shocks, bushes etc to feel like an M3 should.
Favourite rust points on an E30 are under the windscreen on the scuttle.
Good luck,
Dave.
OK Rex is gonna love this!
I remember driving my first M3 and thinking, why is this not as quick as my '71 2002 Tii with Bosch mechanical injection?
It was clearly more refined and had much better emissions, but when it came down to raw performance and drivability, it was not in the same league as the Tii: sign of the times perhaps?
I remember driving my first M3 and thinking, why is this not as quick as my '71 2002 Tii with Bosch mechanical injection?
It was clearly more refined and had much better emissions, but when it came down to raw performance and drivability, it was not in the same league as the Tii: sign of the times perhaps?
davejw said:
It's not a shopping car, or a commuting car - buy a Golf or something for cheap running around.
Pah,
old Golfs- when played with a tad, are fine on track, just those pesky slow old E30 M3s looking good- but going slow, getting in the flippin' way >> Edited by iguana on Thursday 26th May 12:08
IOLAIRE said:
OK Rex is gonna love this!
I remember driving my first M3 and thinking, why is this not as quick as my '71 2002 Tii with Bosch mechanical injection?
It was clearly more refined and had much better emissions, but when it came down to raw performance and drivability, it was not in the same league as the Tii: sign of the times perhaps?
The 2002 tii was an absolute legend!
I loved those!
Made more power and torque than the much vaunted and over hyped "4 valve" Triumph Dolomite sprint- with less complexity and more reliability. However, of course, the Dolomite is probably seen as more of a favoured classic.....
If you like your Elise you won't be disappointed with an E30.
The only mod I did to my old Sport Evo was to fit Hartge negative camber top mounts as it understeered on turn in a bit too much for my liking, I can't stand push if I'm having a bit of fun. In the three years I owned mine I didn't have to change pads or disks but went through 2 front tyres and 4 rears, which will shows just how much speed you can carry into corners.
Just to let you now what the car is capable of I've managed to maintain close distance with a 996 turbo on a B road blat and a Murcielago on an elevated stretch of Autostrada in Italy (the twisty section of the A5 between Parma and La Spezia).
E36 M3s won't see which way you went
The only mod I did to my old Sport Evo was to fit Hartge negative camber top mounts as it understeered on turn in a bit too much for my liking, I can't stand push if I'm having a bit of fun. In the three years I owned mine I didn't have to change pads or disks but went through 2 front tyres and 4 rears, which will shows just how much speed you can carry into corners.
Just to let you now what the car is capable of I've managed to maintain close distance with a 996 turbo on a B road blat and a Murcielago on an elevated stretch of Autostrada in Italy (the twisty section of the A5 between Parma and La Spezia).
E36 M3s won't see which way you went
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