E36 BMW becoming a classic?
Discussion
SidewaysSi said:
C70R said:
SidewaysSi said:
C70R said:
SidewaysSi said:
fred bloggs said:
SidewaysSi said:
I have a rust free, low mile 328 manual coupe and wouldn't let it go for less than £10k. IMO more fun on road than any M3 bar the E30.
LOL Owner rose tints. A e36 328 is manual is going up in value but they can be found for 3-5000
For me, there genuinely is no car I would want to replace it with as I feel in its current guise, it can just about do everything that I want from it - a great all rounder for not much cash in the grand scheme of things.
Perhaps a C63 but I don't want an auto. Or the mass or fuel bills.
I genuinely can't think of any car so I am happy to chuck a few grand at it and enjoy for many years to come.
I may add a W124 to the stable though as I do love their build and comfort.
E30 steering arms are another great mod - makes the steering a lot more direct.
You've even nailed its limitations in your own garage description, FFS: "Wooly handling and steering and generally the feel of a heavy 2 door saloon car. "
It's a 1400kg saloon car masquerading as something moderately sporty - it's a podgy, middle-aged bloke in a one-piece lycra cycling suit. It's definitely a competent car, but the 328 is less capable in every way than the E46 330ci Sport.
The latter is available from £2500, and has absolutely zero potential to become a "classic".
Edited by C70R on Sunday 3rd September 19:17
Regarding comparisons to the E46 - it is the age old argument regarding competence vs fun and IMO the '46 is noticeably heavier and less focused. More a GT car if you will. So of course it is technically better but as we all know, that is not always a good thing...And that's before we talk subframes.
I would prefer a modified 105 Alfa and probably a 2002 with an M52. But for something relatively modern which can entertain, the E36 is a great car. Provided you have spent a few grand on some decent upgrades. Like any car, driving a 20 year old standard example which has not had a refresh will inevitably be disappointing.
Given you have looked in my garage, I do have some fun cars so like to think I know what I like from a car. The E36 is not a thrill a minute track car (though many do use them as such) but what car over 1000kg actually is?
Saying that PH seemed to have some fun round the 'Ring in theirs:
https://www.pistonheads.com/regulars/ph-fleet/bmw-...
Edited by SidewaysSi on Sunday 3rd September 19:54
We're not talking about a bantamweight vs super-heavyweight argument here. If the 1500kg E46 is a "GT", then what on earth is the 1400kg E36?In "Sport" guise, the E46 330ci is better damped, more composed and quicker than any non-M3 E36 could ever dream of (there's almost 1.5sec between it and the 328i Sport over the standing kilometre - it's actually closer in performance to the 3.0 M3!).
The E36 (along with the E46 325ti) is the PH darling at the moment, and it would appear they could do no wrong. However, I drove a few before I bought my first 330ci, and while competent I simply don't get the hype.
To be clear, I absolutely don't rate the 330ci as some kind of world-beater. It's a saloon car with vague sporting pretensions. However, it's a damn sight better than the E36 in practically every respect, IMHO.
The whole "spend a few grand on decent upgrades" is also moot. I could think of 20 cars that I would consider fun with "a few grand" spent on them - and the E36 would be somewhere in the middle of the list.
Definitely not getting the "classic" hype.
Edited by C70R on Sunday 3rd September 21:18
I don't really care whether the E36 is a classic or not, but my car with its new parts is a brilliantly capable and fun road car, end of. I have a modified Elise S1 160 and a Caterham and I still really enjoy going for a blast in my old 328. And that's all that matters. When you get to cars of this age, individual examples will drive very differently so spending money becomes vital.
As for other cars, what do you think would give the same ability and fun as a refreshed E36 for sub £10k which can cart the family around, be reliable, oversteerable and fun on road? I can't think of (m)any at all. And an E46 isn't one IMO.
As for weight, you certainly can tell the difference of 100KG which is hardly insignificant. My car has no toys whatsoever (completely bum basic) so is probably in the mid 1300s I'd say.
Edited by SidewaysSi on Sunday 3rd September 21:37
The "basic" E36 328 weight was 1395kg - that's how much your car weighs.
Your "sub £10k" requirements also make the E36 look like a glass of water in a brewery. I could think of 15 cars which fit the requirements better than the E36 328.
As for the bit in bold, that's the whole point of this thread. The title isn't "E36 BMW a decent-ish motor?".
skylarking808 said:
one of the best all rounders under £10k for several of us PistonHeads
It's absolutely horses for courses, and you can't criticise someone's decision to buy, but IMHO the E36 328 isn't even the third-best 3-series under £10k.I just can't see how it's "better" (subjective, of course) than the E46 M3, the E46 B3 or the E90 D3.
Edited by C70R on Sunday 3rd September 22:11
Leptons said:
C70R said:
It's absolutely horses for courses, and you can't criticise someone's decision to buy, but IMHO the E36 328 isn't even the third-best BMW all-rounder under £10k.
Ok we get it, you're not a fan. Move on to another thread.C70R said:
SidewaysSi said:
C70R said:
SidewaysSi said:
C70R said:
SidewaysSi said:
fred bloggs said:
SidewaysSi said:
I have a rust free, low mile 328 manual coupe and wouldn't let it go for less than £10k. IMO more fun on road than any M3 bar the E30.
LOL Owner rose tints. A e36 328 is manual is going up in value but they can be found for 3-5000
For me, there genuinely is no car I would want to replace it with as I feel in its current guise, it can just about do everything that I want from it - a great all rounder for not much cash in the grand scheme of things.
Perhaps a C63 but I don't want an auto. Or the mass or fuel bills.
I genuinely can't think of any car so I am happy to chuck a few grand at it and enjoy for many years to come.
I may add a W124 to the stable though as I do love their build and comfort.
E30 steering arms are another great mod - makes the steering a lot more direct.
You've even nailed its limitations in your own garage description, FFS: "Wooly handling and steering and generally the feel of a heavy 2 door saloon car. "
It's a 1400kg saloon car masquerading as something moderately sporty - it's a podgy, middle-aged bloke in a one-piece lycra cycling suit. It's definitely a competent car, but the 328 is less capable in every way than the E46 330ci Sport.
The latter is available from £2500, and has absolutely zero potential to become a "classic".
Edited by C70R on Sunday 3rd September 19:17
Regarding comparisons to the E46 - it is the age old argument regarding competence vs fun and IMO the '46 is noticeably heavier and less focused. More a GT car if you will. So of course it is technically better but as we all know, that is not always a good thing...And that's before we talk subframes.
I would prefer a modified 105 Alfa and probably a 2002 with an M52. But for something relatively modern which can entertain, the E36 is a great car. Provided you have spent a few grand on some decent upgrades. Like any car, driving a 20 year old standard example which has not had a refresh will inevitably be disappointing.
Given you have looked in my garage, I do have some fun cars so like to think I know what I like from a car. The E36 is not a thrill a minute track car (though many do use them as such) but what car over 1000kg actually is?
Saying that PH seemed to have some fun round the 'Ring in theirs:
https://www.pistonheads.com/regulars/ph-fleet/bmw-...
Edited by SidewaysSi on Sunday 3rd September 19:54
We're not talking about a bantamweight vs super-heavyweight argument here. If the 1500kg E46 is a "GT", then what on earth is the 1400kg E36?In "Sport" guise, the E46 330ci is better damped, more composed and quicker than any non-M3 E36 could ever dream of (there's almost 1.5sec between it and the 328i Sport over the standing kilometre - it's actually closer in performance to the 3.0 M3!).
The E36 (along with the E46 325ti) is the PH darling at the moment, and it would appear they could do no wrong. However, I drove a few before I bought my first 330ci, and while competent I simply don't get the hype.
To be clear, I absolutely don't rate the 330ci as some kind of world-beater. It's a saloon car with vague sporting pretensions. However, it's a damn sight better than the E36 in practically every respect, IMHO.
The whole "spend a few grand on decent upgrades" is also moot. I could think of 20 cars that I would consider fun with "a few grand" spent on them - and the E36 would be somewhere in the middle of the list.
Definitely not getting the "classic" hype.
Edited by C70R on Sunday 3rd September 21:18
I don't really care whether the E36 is a classic or not, but my car with its new parts is a brilliantly capable and fun road car, end of. I have a modified Elise S1 160 and a Caterham and I still really enjoy going for a blast in my old 328. And that's all that matters. When you get to cars of this age, individual examples will drive very differently so spending money becomes vital.
As for other cars, what do you think would give the same ability and fun as a refreshed E36 for sub £10k which can cart the family around, be reliable, oversteerable and fun on road? I can't think of (m)any at all. And an E46 isn't one IMO.
As for weight, you certainly can tell the difference of 100KG which is hardly insignificant. My car has no toys whatsoever (completely bum basic) so is probably in the mid 1300s I'd say.
Edited by SidewaysSi on Sunday 3rd September 21:37
The "basic" E36 328 weight was 1395kg - that's how much your car weighs.
Your "sub £10k" requirements also make the E36 look like a glass of water in a brewery. I could think of 15 cars which fit the requirements better than the E36 328.
As for the bit in bold, that's the whole point of this thread. The title isn't "E36 BMW a decent-ish motor?".
But I really don't know of many cars which will offer me what my car gives me.
Please tell me this list of 15 but something tells me you may have a different idea of what makes a car great than I have.
With enough age behind them, all cars eventually become a classic of sorts. I don't feel the e36 is there yet. It's just not old enough to be a classic in the true sense of the word, whatever that is!
Personally I love the shape of the e36, they are a clean and quite elegant looking car. I particularly like the silky smooth, quiet 328 engine. The M styling is a must for me though, without it they can look extremely dated in my humble opinion.
Personally I love the shape of the e36, they are a clean and quite elegant looking car. I particularly like the silky smooth, quiet 328 engine. The M styling is a must for me though, without it they can look extremely dated in my humble opinion.
C70R said:
It's absolutely horses for courses, and you can't criticise someone's decision to buy, but IMHO the E36 328 isn't even the third-best 3-series under £10k.
I just can't see how it's "better" (subjective, of course) than the E46 M3, the E46 B3 or the E90 D3.
I d'ont think a car has to be better or be worth a lot of money necessarily to become a classic. There are many other factors at play.I just can't see how it's "better" (subjective, of course) than the E46 M3, the E46 B3 or the E90 D3.
Edited by C70R on Sunday 3rd September 22:11
But you are right it is totally subjective what you want from a car. I do know that if enough other people think the same way, then "classic" status is possible, even when not an obviously ground breaking or perfect vehicle. I think the goal posts are still moving with the classic car scene.
As for the 328 sport it under steers less than an M3 in standard form and flows better on our British roads. Also less made than the M3's but not as rare as the Alpinas which I rate highly and are out of my current budget.
I love the old school feel of the E36; well it was designed in the eighties, and the ability to be fun at reasonable speeds. E46 just the wrong side of very accomplished for me.
I think the E46 will also be a classic as mentioned in certain guises. The Alpinas in all BMW threes will always be amazing cars and cult classics.
I think it too early to say on either the E36 or E46.
The M3 4-dr would be my pick for a potential classic. Especially in Avus blue or Daytona/Techno violet
The 318iS 4-dr is also worth a shout. It may not necessarily become a classic, and obviously won't satisfy those who want the ultimate in performance, but still an appealing car IMO due to the rarity factor
The 318iS 4-dr is also worth a shout. It may not necessarily become a classic, and obviously won't satisfy those who want the ultimate in performance, but still an appealing car IMO due to the rarity factor
C70R said:
I feel like you're arguing for the sake of defending your car now. You even said "Wooly handling and steering and generally the feel of a heavy 2 door saloon car. " in your own profile!
Is that what makes a car fun? Or great? Or a classic?
Are you really that obtuse? Please re-read and get back to me. Yes, of course it is wooly as a standard untouched car after 20 years of use. But following some tweaks, my car is no longer standard...Now do you understand? I don't think you have any real world experience of a properly upgraded car but I am happy to be proved wrong.Is that what makes a car fun? Or great? Or a classic?
And I really don't need to defend anything at all - I love it for what I use it for (a fun, slideable, family friendly road car) and as I said, that's all that matters. It isn't for sale and quite frankly, I may well still have it in one form or another in 10 years time.
Now please tell me about these 15 that are considerably superior for my needs...
SidewaysSi said:
C70R said:
I feel like you're arguing for the sake of defending your car now. You even said "Wooly handling and steering and generally the feel of a heavy 2 door saloon car. " in your own profile!
Is that what makes a car fun? Or great? Or a classic?
Are you really that obtuse? Please re-read and get back to me. Yes, of course it is wooly as a standard untouched car after 20 years of use. But following some tweaks, my car is no longer standard...Now do you understand? I don't think you have any real world experience of a properly upgraded car but I am happy to be proved wrong.Is that what makes a car fun? Or great? Or a classic?
And I really don't need to defend anything at all - I love it for what I use it for (a fun, slideable, family friendly road car) and as I said, that's all that matters. It isn't for sale and quite frankly, I may well still have it in one form or another in 10 years time.
Now please tell me about these 15 that are considerably superior for my needs...
As for the 15 cars, I've listed three indisputably superior 3-series models above. In fact, when you add the rarely-sighted sub-£10k E36 M3 into the equation, the 328 might be the fifth-best 3-series under £10k (and that's ignoring the E46 330ci and 325ti, IMHO).
It really isn't hard to find better cars under £10k...
Edited by C70R on Sunday 3rd September 23:07
C70R said:
SidewaysSi said:
C70R said:
I feel like you're arguing for the sake of defending your car now. You even said "Wooly handling and steering and generally the feel of a heavy 2 door saloon car. " in your own profile!
Is that what makes a car fun? Or great? Or a classic?
Are you really that obtuse? Please re-read and get back to me. Yes, of course it is wooly as a standard untouched car after 20 years of use. But following some tweaks, my car is no longer standard...Now do you understand? I don't think you have any real world experience of a properly upgraded car but I am happy to be proved wrong.Is that what makes a car fun? Or great? Or a classic?
And I really don't need to defend anything at all - I love it for what I use it for (a fun, slideable, family friendly road car) and as I said, that's all that matters. It isn't for sale and quite frankly, I may well still have it in one form or another in 10 years time.
Now please tell me about these 15 that are considerably superior for my needs...
As for the 15 cars, I've listed three indisputably superior 3-series models above. In fact, when you add the rarely-sighted sub-£10k E36 M3 into the equation, the 328 might be the fifth-best 3-series under £10k (and that's ignoring the E46 330ci and 325ti, IMHO).
It really isn't hard to find better cars under £10k...
Edited by C70R on Sunday 3rd September 23:07
And of course my car is uprated - a standard BMW, most M cars included are fairly dull. Let alone ones with original suspension and are 15+ years old. But I don't think such things really bother you.
Given your list above and car history, let's say we look for different things in a car and leave it at that shall we?!
Yes Definately!
I love mine, Only a 318is so not quick but just a fantastic car to drive.
Have been slowly adding bits to it over the years, M3 Cloth Interior, 328i BBS wheels, Factory PDC Retrofit, 7 Button MID etc... Have a few very rare bits to fit aswel, Aluminium doors and the aero bumpers.
I suppose the same can be said for any car but the variety of different parts/options available is amazing... It's like a 1/1 version of those magazines with model car parts you buy and assemble weekly.
I love mine, Only a 318is so not quick but just a fantastic car to drive.
Have been slowly adding bits to it over the years, M3 Cloth Interior, 328i BBS wheels, Factory PDC Retrofit, 7 Button MID etc... Have a few very rare bits to fit aswel, Aluminium doors and the aero bumpers.
I suppose the same can be said for any car but the variety of different parts/options available is amazing... It's like a 1/1 version of those magazines with model car parts you buy and assemble weekly.
I bought my avus blue e36 323 saloon at 6 months old back in 1998. I still have it.
Body work a bit bruised but only the drivers seat showing wear, I love it so much that I just can't bear to sell it.
It has been with me through Porsche ownership thru Discovery and now Mustang as well as a heap of motorbikes.
It passed it's MOT with ease a couple of months ago yet sadly the power steering pump is on its way out but I am going to just have to stump up the money to keep it driving.
It's my daily and does about 10k miles a year. It's anonymous and I can leave it for a few days in dodgy parts of London and it remains unmolested.
I think it's pretty quick when driven solo but suffers when loaded with passengers and luggage. It's fun without the licence destroying tendencies of my 410bhp Ford although it uses almost as much fuel lol.
Body work a bit bruised but only the drivers seat showing wear, I love it so much that I just can't bear to sell it.
It has been with me through Porsche ownership thru Discovery and now Mustang as well as a heap of motorbikes.
It passed it's MOT with ease a couple of months ago yet sadly the power steering pump is on its way out but I am going to just have to stump up the money to keep it driving.
It's my daily and does about 10k miles a year. It's anonymous and I can leave it for a few days in dodgy parts of London and it remains unmolested.
I think it's pretty quick when driven solo but suffers when loaded with passengers and luggage. It's fun without the licence destroying tendencies of my 410bhp Ford although it uses almost as much fuel lol.
Picked up my 1994 325i auto a couple of months back, had some money spent on maintenance over the years and has sunroof, a/c 18 button obc, cross spoke wheels. Feels a special car to me, sounds lovely and is actually going to be moved into the garage. One rear arch starting to bubble that's it. Only car in a long time I've taken out driving for the sake of driving.
SidewaysSi said:
C70R said:
SidewaysSi said:
C70R said:
I feel like you're arguing for the sake of defending your car now. You even said "Wooly handling and steering and generally the feel of a heavy 2 door saloon car. " in your own profile!
Is that what makes a car fun? Or great? Or a classic?
Are you really that obtuse? Please re-read and get back to me. Yes, of course it is wooly as a standard untouched car after 20 years of use. But following some tweaks, my car is no longer standard...Now do you understand? I don't think you have any real world experience of a properly upgraded car but I am happy to be proved wrong.Is that what makes a car fun? Or great? Or a classic?
And I really don't need to defend anything at all - I love it for what I use it for (a fun, slideable, family friendly road car) and as I said, that's all that matters. It isn't for sale and quite frankly, I may well still have it in one form or another in 10 years time.
Now please tell me about these 15 that are considerably superior for my needs...
As for the 15 cars, I've listed three indisputably superior 3-series models above. In fact, when you add the rarely-sighted sub-£10k E36 M3 into the equation, the 328 might be the fifth-best 3-series under £10k (and that's ignoring the E46 330ci and 325ti, IMHO).
It really isn't hard to find better cars under £10k...
Edited by C70R on Sunday 3rd September 23:07
And of course my car is uprated - a standard BMW, most M cars included are fairly dull. Let alone ones with original suspension and are 15+ years old. But I don't think such things really bother you.
Given your list above and car history, let's say we look for different things in a car and leave it at that shall we?!
You're hung up on this "15" thing, aren't you? The fact that there are probably six better 3-series models alone available in your self-imposed budget is telling enough.
Tell me when was the last time you saw someone recommend a 328i E36 when the "what car?" question was "family and fun for £10k". That should say all you need to know.
So, you want some better cars with those criteria (so you can frantically scramble to prove yours is better)?
Rx8, Altezza & Aristo, Audi S3 & S4, Golf R32, Lancer Evo6/7/8, Impreza Spec D/Sti, Focus ST, E39 M5, BMW 130i, Megane 250, C32 AMG. The list is endless...
Had you just been sensible and said £3k, you wouldn't be looking so much of a wally now.
Anyway, that's moot, because the thread was about whether it's a "classic" or not. So far most owners seem to agree, but that means squat.
As for the bit in bold, I'd suggest your standards are low if this is what constitutes a "classic".
As for the car history thing, I've only are cars I've owned since joining. Damned if I can be bothered to list the 20-or-so that preceded this.
Edited by C70R on Monday 4th September 08:47
sixpotter said:
Picked up my 1994 325i auto a couple of months back, had some money spent on maintenance over the years and has sunroof, a/c 18 button obc, cross spoke wheels. Feels a special car to me, sounds lovely and is actually going to be moved into the garage. One rear arch starting to bubble that's it. Only car in a long time I've taken out driving for the sake of driving.
My friend had a very early E36 325 for a while when I had my 328. I liked the engine on the 325 - quite different in character, liked to really rev and had a different noise/power delivery to the standard 328. Made an interesting comparison for a 1 bhp difference ( on paper )C70R said:
So, you want some better cars with those criteria (so you can frantically scramble to prove yours is better)?
Rx8, Altezza & Aristo, Audi S3 & S4, Golf R32, Lancer Evo6/7/8, Impreza Spec D/Sti, Focus ST, E39 M5, BMW 130i, Megane 250, C32 AMG. The list is endless...
Had you just been sensible and said £3k, you wouldn't be looking so much of a wally now.
The point is any car can be worth far more to an individual than the total of its parts. My 130 now is worth, to me, £15K, that is what it would cost me to replace it with something significantly better. I am sure the book value is much, much lower but I don't really care. It is a 'better' car than an E90 M3 and of the list above only the E39 M5 would take my fancy, although to own and run any M car, especially an older one can be ruinous. Rx8, Altezza & Aristo, Audi S3 & S4, Golf R32, Lancer Evo6/7/8, Impreza Spec D/Sti, Focus ST, E39 M5, BMW 130i, Megane 250, C32 AMG. The list is endless...
Had you just been sensible and said £3k, you wouldn't be looking so much of a wally now.
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