Legnum VR4 v Nissan Stagea v Legacy GTB - Review
Discussion
As there have been a few topics on this I thought I'd add a decent unbiassed review of all of these 3 super estates. I've owned & run a collection of all 3 over the years.
I currently have both a Stagea & VR4 that I'm daily
I get the impression somebody after one of these needs a bigger car but also wants some PH'ness with a decent turn of speed when required, think 6 sec 0-60 & something capabale of 150mph, plus something that handles well & would'nt be embarrassed on a trackday
Also one of these would appear to be the ideal thing for those downsizing their fleet from a toys & boring car or two to something that does both.
None of these are cheap cars to run, mostly from an MPG point of view but they are now cheap to buy think 2-3k will buy you any one of these & all are fast cars indeed. So in reality you can't lose much in depreciation, parts & servicing are generally DIY'able & they are old skool tech compared to more modern stuff.
So here goes
Nissan Stagea RS-4
Often to referred to as the Skyline estate which in essence it is (its actually an R34 chassis code) they all come in 4wd, utilising a lighter version of the R33 GTR 4wd system, otherwise much the same running gear as an R33 GTS-T. So parts availability is plentiful & so are tuning options. All the ones I have ever seen are always auto's (4spd with overdrive)A more common sports version is the DAYZ RS-4 which has the factory bodykit, stiffer suspension, pearl paint etc & few nice trim additions being the top spec one.
Mechanicals
They seem to come with two RB25 straight 6 engine options the 160bhp non turbo (base model) often in flat colours!! & the 2.5 240bhp single turbo RS-4. Essentially a a bombproof engine in standard trim. Some very rare GTR engined ones about but as I say very rare. Dead easy DIY servicing btw.
Interior
The most luxurious of the 3, nice big comfy seating, more plush than sports car, quietest of the 3 on the road by a long way. Nice long distance cruiser. The Stagea is a HUGE car, bigger than an Audi A6 for example, masses of room, rear seats recline which is nice, or fold flat out of the way & a big big estate car it is.
Handling
Surprising for something so big, two stage boost so good poke to start with then hit about 5k rpm & second boost stage kicks in & they do go! very surefooted but rwd biassed so fun can still be had. I do believe they are fitted with a viscous rear diff as standard which helps. These have a fairly basic 4wd set up nothing fancy no trickery though you can lock the centre diff for snow conditions. Probably the last of the 3 you'd want to a trackday in but I'd imaging it'd cope quite well.
Common Faults & reliabilty
Nothing mechanical if they've been looked after, only issues I've ever come across are small patches of rust under the wing mirror which is obviously a very common fault! Never any rust anywehere else on them. In standard trim they are utterly reliable.
Running costs
Its a big car, realisticly does 23-28mpg average, parts are cheap & plentiful due to being the same as a Skyline so mechanical bits are well catered for.
Overall
A BIG fast comfy load lugging barge that will surprise you & you neighbours won't have a clue what it is
Mistubishi Legnum V-R4
The import version of the Galant VR-4, much more a sports car than the Stagea, a lot lighter & hence a lot quicker. 260-280bhp variants, very clever tiptronic auto's (think sequential box) or 5 speed manuals. About the same size a Volvo V70 (I have one of them too!!) or Audi A4 Avant
Mechanical
A V6 lump, twin turbo'd & running essentially a combination of EVO 3-4-5-6 bits underneath. 260bhp in auto tiptronic form or 280bhp in manual trim, Ralliart auto's are 280bhp though, these came with Tein coilovers from the factory & were lower & sportier in the ride & handling. AYC is active yaw control as found on later EVO's so clever diff trickery at the back end which works damn well !!! Not the easiest to DIY service.
Interior
Quite nice inside, not at all dated, seats not as plush as Stagea but still comfy. Lovely dials & console some have LCD touchscreen controls. More road noise & mechanical noises on this one, its lighter & obviously more sports biassed.
Handling
Quite simply amazing, very neutral, a very fast & capable cross country car, could easily keep up with many of the EVO's or not be embarrased by one. Inordinate amount of traction even on average tyres! AYC means clever rear diff & you can feel it working its magic through the twisties. The most clever of the 3 IMHO. On a wet trackday probably the next fastest thing out there to a well driven evo.
Common Faults
It would seem they tend to be reliable as whole, but when things go wrong it will go with a bang. Occasional hydraulic tappet noises at start up, which they all seem to do to some extent, nothing to worry about though.
Running costs
Hmmm, mine will actually do 400km's on £40 if you cruise about GENTLY but enthusiasm soon gets the better of me Shell shareholders apply here.
Overall
Estate cars should'nt be this quick! Very sleek looking & a bit leftfield.
Legacy GT-B
Pic is of one of my old RS Saloons but you get the idea
Noise poise & burble is what these are all about, a Scooby in estate guise. Engine options vary between 240-280bhp dependent on year & model. Some later ones are STI'd so 300 plus is an option. Actually quite a large car as estates go, but it does'nt feel like a big car to drive.
Mechanical
Nicked from the Impreza, but with two turbo's screwed on instead of one. Clever sequential turbo arrangment so lots of low down grunt & high end power too. 50/50 on the DIY serviceabilty.
Interior
Much more basic than the others above, not really plush but nice & simple. Seats are definately the most sporting though & very comfy. Again a bit mechanically but the engines do sound great.
Handling
Its a Legacy RS estate so rally bred handling from day one, bit understeery to start with but can be poked for fun. Very fast cross country. Would happily cope with a trackday.
Common faults & reliabilty
Piston slap is common from cold, turbo actuator system is very complicated & often gets lost Autoboxes seemed to be made of toffee. Again when they go wrong they go bang.
Running Costs
Cheap parts & servicing, well catered for & lots of interchangeabilty. Not the most fuel efficient but its the lightest of the 3 so could be the best on the MPG's.
Overall
Fat lightweight, most basic trim of the 3 and the best noise. Not the most dicreet.
Conclusion
Stagea is the biggest, most basic mechanically & most oddball
Legnum is the clever'est, most discreet, feels light
GTB is the loudest & most recognised
I currently have both a Stagea & VR4 that I'm daily
I get the impression somebody after one of these needs a bigger car but also wants some PH'ness with a decent turn of speed when required, think 6 sec 0-60 & something capabale of 150mph, plus something that handles well & would'nt be embarrassed on a trackday
Also one of these would appear to be the ideal thing for those downsizing their fleet from a toys & boring car or two to something that does both.None of these are cheap cars to run, mostly from an MPG point of view but they are now cheap to buy think 2-3k will buy you any one of these & all are fast cars indeed. So in reality you can't lose much in depreciation, parts & servicing are generally DIY'able & they are old skool tech compared to more modern stuff.
So here goes
Nissan Stagea RS-4
Often to referred to as the Skyline estate which in essence it is (its actually an R34 chassis code) they all come in 4wd, utilising a lighter version of the R33 GTR 4wd system, otherwise much the same running gear as an R33 GTS-T. So parts availability is plentiful & so are tuning options. All the ones I have ever seen are always auto's (4spd with overdrive)A more common sports version is the DAYZ RS-4 which has the factory bodykit, stiffer suspension, pearl paint etc & few nice trim additions being the top spec one.
Mechanicals
They seem to come with two RB25 straight 6 engine options the 160bhp non turbo (base model) often in flat colours!! & the 2.5 240bhp single turbo RS-4. Essentially a a bombproof engine in standard trim. Some very rare GTR engined ones about but as I say very rare. Dead easy DIY servicing btw.
Interior
The most luxurious of the 3, nice big comfy seating, more plush than sports car, quietest of the 3 on the road by a long way. Nice long distance cruiser. The Stagea is a HUGE car, bigger than an Audi A6 for example, masses of room, rear seats recline which is nice, or fold flat out of the way & a big big estate car it is.
Handling
Surprising for something so big, two stage boost so good poke to start with then hit about 5k rpm & second boost stage kicks in & they do go! very surefooted but rwd biassed so fun can still be had. I do believe they are fitted with a viscous rear diff as standard which helps. These have a fairly basic 4wd set up nothing fancy no trickery though you can lock the centre diff for snow conditions. Probably the last of the 3 you'd want to a trackday in but I'd imaging it'd cope quite well.
Common Faults & reliabilty
Nothing mechanical if they've been looked after, only issues I've ever come across are small patches of rust under the wing mirror which is obviously a very common fault! Never any rust anywehere else on them. In standard trim they are utterly reliable.
Running costs
Its a big car, realisticly does 23-28mpg average, parts are cheap & plentiful due to being the same as a Skyline so mechanical bits are well catered for.
Overall
A BIG fast comfy load lugging barge that will surprise you & you neighbours won't have a clue what it is
Mistubishi Legnum V-R4
The import version of the Galant VR-4, much more a sports car than the Stagea, a lot lighter & hence a lot quicker. 260-280bhp variants, very clever tiptronic auto's (think sequential box) or 5 speed manuals. About the same size a Volvo V70 (I have one of them too!!) or Audi A4 Avant
Mechanical
A V6 lump, twin turbo'd & running essentially a combination of EVO 3-4-5-6 bits underneath. 260bhp in auto tiptronic form or 280bhp in manual trim, Ralliart auto's are 280bhp though, these came with Tein coilovers from the factory & were lower & sportier in the ride & handling. AYC is active yaw control as found on later EVO's so clever diff trickery at the back end which works damn well !!! Not the easiest to DIY service.
Interior
Quite nice inside, not at all dated, seats not as plush as Stagea but still comfy. Lovely dials & console some have LCD touchscreen controls. More road noise & mechanical noises on this one, its lighter & obviously more sports biassed.
Handling
Quite simply amazing, very neutral, a very fast & capable cross country car, could easily keep up with many of the EVO's or not be embarrased by one. Inordinate amount of traction even on average tyres! AYC means clever rear diff & you can feel it working its magic through the twisties. The most clever of the 3 IMHO. On a wet trackday probably the next fastest thing out there to a well driven evo.
Common Faults
It would seem they tend to be reliable as whole, but when things go wrong it will go with a bang. Occasional hydraulic tappet noises at start up, which they all seem to do to some extent, nothing to worry about though.
Running costs
Hmmm, mine will actually do 400km's on £40 if you cruise about GENTLY but enthusiasm soon gets the better of me
Shell shareholders apply here.Overall
Estate cars should'nt be this quick! Very sleek looking & a bit leftfield.
Legacy GT-B
Pic is of one of my old RS Saloons but you get the idea
Noise poise & burble is what these are all about, a Scooby in estate guise. Engine options vary between 240-280bhp dependent on year & model. Some later ones are STI'd so 300 plus is an option. Actually quite a large car as estates go, but it does'nt feel like a big car to drive.
Mechanical
Nicked from the Impreza, but with two turbo's screwed on instead of one. Clever sequential turbo arrangment so lots of low down grunt & high end power too. 50/50 on the DIY serviceabilty.
Interior
Much more basic than the others above, not really plush but nice & simple. Seats are definately the most sporting though & very comfy. Again a bit mechanically but the engines do sound great.
Handling
Its a Legacy RS estate
so rally bred handling from day one, bit understeery to start with but can be poked for fun. Very fast cross country. Would happily cope with a trackday.Common faults & reliabilty
Piston slap is common from cold, turbo actuator system is very complicated & often gets lost
Autoboxes seemed to be made of toffee. Again when they go wrong they go bang. Running Costs
Cheap parts & servicing, well catered for & lots of interchangeabilty. Not the most fuel efficient but its the lightest of the 3 so could be the best on the MPG's.
Overall
Fat lightweight, most basic trim of the 3 and the best noise. Not the most dicreet.
Conclusion
Stagea is the biggest, most basic mechanically & most oddball
Legnum is the clever'est, most discreet, feels light
GTB is the loudest & most recognised
Some differences from my experience:
2.5 NA Stagea motors put out about 200bhp not 160, they also made 2.0 (RB20DE) version which are really gutless, they might be the 150-160bhp you're thinking of. They also made RWD versions of both the 2.0 and 2.5 NA, turbos may have all been 4wd though.
Apparently some Stageas have a simplified 4wd system and some have the full-fat ATTESSA which is not so simple, you can tell by checking for a small fluid reservoir in one of the cubby-holes in the boot.
I haven't driven a VR4 but found a 1.8 fwd Galant to have quite annoying wind noise from around the mirrors and very numb steering.
The '93-98 (BD/BG) shape Legacies came in 2 turbo versions, the GT with 260bhp and the GTB with 280 and bilstein suspension. The most common complaint is the "valley of death" (VOD), the flat spot where the primary turbo can fall off boost before the secondary is up to speed. Worst in tired examples, the later cars improved this (not an issue at all with mine) and there are a number of aftermarket fixes too.
Mine is a 2002 (BE/BH) and is much quieter, smoother, more economical (but faster) and has much better front-end bite than older Legacies I've driven/owned. Also has plenty of other nice features like reclining/fold flat rear seats, 3-point seatbelt for the middle as well, built-in luggage net, tiedown points, etc...
2.5 NA Stagea motors put out about 200bhp not 160, they also made 2.0 (RB20DE) version which are really gutless, they might be the 150-160bhp you're thinking of. They also made RWD versions of both the 2.0 and 2.5 NA, turbos may have all been 4wd though.
Apparently some Stageas have a simplified 4wd system and some have the full-fat ATTESSA which is not so simple, you can tell by checking for a small fluid reservoir in one of the cubby-holes in the boot.
I haven't driven a VR4 but found a 1.8 fwd Galant to have quite annoying wind noise from around the mirrors and very numb steering.
The '93-98 (BD/BG) shape Legacies came in 2 turbo versions, the GT with 260bhp and the GTB with 280 and bilstein suspension. The most common complaint is the "valley of death" (VOD), the flat spot where the primary turbo can fall off boost before the secondary is up to speed. Worst in tired examples, the later cars improved this (not an issue at all with mine) and there are a number of aftermarket fixes too.
Mine is a 2002 (BE/BH) and is much quieter, smoother, more economical (but faster) and has much better front-end bite than older Legacies I've driven/owned. Also has plenty of other nice features like reclining/fold flat rear seats, 3-point seatbelt for the middle as well, built-in luggage net, tiedown points, etc...
Edited by GravelBen on Thursday 13th November 23:39
RE older Subaru autos, AFAIK they almost all need a rebuild somewhere between 150-180k Km (~80-110k miles) depending how they've been driven, at lower Kms they should be fine though.
Legnums/Galants also have a reputation for weak gearboxes but not sure of the details.
A mate did screw the auto box in his Stagea but it took some serious mechanical abuse to do it - he had an unfortunate habit of bouncing off the rev-limit in neutral then slapping it into drive. Cue four 225-wide black lines about a foot long, and a very rapid exit from the scene.
Legnums/Galants also have a reputation for weak gearboxes but not sure of the details.
A mate did screw the auto box in his Stagea but it took some serious mechanical abuse to do it - he had an unfortunate habit of bouncing off the rev-limit in neutral then slapping it into drive. Cue four 225-wide black lines about a foot long, and a very rapid exit from the scene.
AnotherClarkey said:
Where is the best place to source a 'basic' 6cyl Stagea? I am quite tempted by something old-tech and bombproof in the way that and E-class Merc estate should be be just isn't. Not too bothered about super high performance.
I'm looking for a W124 E220 replacement too.
Lack of ditchproofness was our ones problem.
defblade said:
Wish I'd known about the Nissan when I bought my A6 Avant (lovely car in many ways but soooooo boring).
I think some of the perception of Stageas being interesting comes mainly from them being fairly rare over there - here in NZ they're not unusual and not perceived as really being anything special - to use your example an A6 would be considered much more interesting and 'aspirational' by most people here.
Never realised the 350Z was that porky, I guess they are a fairly big car for a coupe.On my second Legnum VR4 now...
I drove a Legacy of similar spec before I bought my 1st one and was dissapointed with the feel, performance and general 'nice place to be'.
There is a great support network for the VR4's now thru the owners club, parts are readily available, mods are relatively easy, boost controller & exhaust will get you over 300bhp. They are quick, capable, nice looking, comfy affordable estates.
Only issues are - they are mostly 10/11 years old now, some have a few surface rust spots appearing, auto gearboxes need regular oil changes, service intervals in general, ayc clutch pack fluid needs changing 4500 miles as does engine oil.
Never seen a Stagea yet !
my VR4
I drove a Legacy of similar spec before I bought my 1st one and was dissapointed with the feel, performance and general 'nice place to be'.
There is a great support network for the VR4's now thru the owners club, parts are readily available, mods are relatively easy, boost controller & exhaust will get you over 300bhp. They are quick, capable, nice looking, comfy affordable estates.
Only issues are - they are mostly 10/11 years old now, some have a few surface rust spots appearing, auto gearboxes need regular oil changes, service intervals in general, ayc clutch pack fluid needs changing 4500 miles as does engine oil.
Never seen a Stagea yet !
my VR4
Edited by chevy-stu on Friday 14th November 03:25
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