The MX5 Supercharger
Discussion
For the Turbo :-
Choice of turbos, so output can be tailored to what you want GT25 for up to 230 bhp through GT28 right up to the big boy GT30's and 300+bhp
Supercharging only 1 option for each engine size.
Modern ceramic ball bearing turbos spool really fast, the GT28 is boosting hard by 2000rpm.
Fitting is not difficult, most companies do the fitting for £450 however your paying. BEGI offer full comprehensive instructions for home fitting.
Cost for the high power kits is more than superchargers, reaching upto £5000 however the lower output scale (180bhp) is cheaper starting at £900 for the greddy kit.
With the turbo there is no need for any additional belts to fail and sap power, like having the A/C permently on.
Superchargers output is limited with intercooling not being practable 200bhp is about the maximum. To get high outputs water injection is often required to prevent det, this of course needs to be constantly topped up, not the sort of thing you want to unwittingly run of of on a trackday.
Choice of turbos, so output can be tailored to what you want GT25 for up to 230 bhp through GT28 right up to the big boy GT30's and 300+bhp
Supercharging only 1 option for each engine size.
Modern ceramic ball bearing turbos spool really fast, the GT28 is boosting hard by 2000rpm.
Fitting is not difficult, most companies do the fitting for £450 however your paying. BEGI offer full comprehensive instructions for home fitting.
Cost for the high power kits is more than superchargers, reaching upto £5000 however the lower output scale (180bhp) is cheaper starting at £900 for the greddy kit.
With the turbo there is no need for any additional belts to fail and sap power, like having the A/C permently on.
Superchargers output is limited with intercooling not being practable 200bhp is about the maximum. To get high outputs water injection is often required to prevent det, this of course needs to be constantly topped up, not the sort of thing you want to unwittingly run of of on a trackday.
Los Angeles said:
Volumetric efficiency is 88%.
Do you mean thermal efficiency? Voumetric efficiency doesn't seem particularly important, and in any case it varies over the operating range.
Los Angeles said:
Maximum heat gain at 6 psi boost is 74 degrees farenheit.
Eaton quote up to 110F at 5 psi if you take the blower up to its rev limit.
Los Angeles said:
It's a trademark of the M45 supercharger as any Buick or Aston Martin fan will attest. (
Share a part with a hairdresser's car - nooooo! 
)
Share a part with a hairdresser's car - nooooo! )I doubt you'll see a Buick or Aston Martin running an M45. You can keep your eye out for a Bini though.
Los Angeles said:
hotter running spark plugs, NGK11s
The main difference between them I think is in the instantaneous throttle response. A properly set up supercharger feels just like a bigger normally aspirated engine, with torque that follows the throttle pedal with no perceptable delay at any revs. With a turbo there is always a delayed effect coming on and off the power.
steve bowen said:
For the Turbo :-
Choice of turbos, so output can be tailored to what you want GT25 for up to 230 bhp through GT28 right up to the big boy GT30's and 300+bhp
Supercharging only 1 option for each engine size.
Modern ceramic ball bearing turbos spool really fast, the GT28 is boosting hard by 2000rpm.
Fitting is not difficult, most companies do the fitting for £450 however your paying. BEGI offer full comprehensive instructions for home fitting.
Cost for the high power kits is more than superchargers, reaching upto £5000 however the lower output scale (180bhp) is cheaper starting at £900 for the greddy kit.
With the turbo there is no need for any additional belts to fail and sap power, like having the A/C permently on.
Superchargers output is limited with intercooling not being practable 200bhp is about the maximum. To get high outputs water injection is often required to prevent det, this of course needs to be constantly topped up, not the sort of thing you want to unwittingly run of of on a trackday.
Choice of turbos, so output can be tailored to what you want GT25 for up to 230 bhp through GT28 right up to the big boy GT30's and 300+bhp
Supercharging only 1 option for each engine size.
Modern ceramic ball bearing turbos spool really fast, the GT28 is boosting hard by 2000rpm.
Fitting is not difficult, most companies do the fitting for £450 however your paying. BEGI offer full comprehensive instructions for home fitting.
Cost for the high power kits is more than superchargers, reaching upto £5000 however the lower output scale (180bhp) is cheaper starting at £900 for the greddy kit.
With the turbo there is no need for any additional belts to fail and sap power, like having the A/C permently on.
Superchargers output is limited with intercooling not being practable 200bhp is about the maximum. To get high outputs water injection is often required to prevent det, this of course needs to be constantly topped up, not the sort of thing you want to unwittingly run of of on a trackday.
Eh? MP62 kits can give a range of horsepowers and boost which can also be adjusted, BRP also offer comprehensive instructions on home fitting.
There also the Jackson M45 charger (mentioned in the original post) which as being a MX5 Nutz member yourself you should know that there's loads of those kits fitted to 1.6 and 1.8 engines, just touching 200bhp without the aid of water injection.
Getting over 200bhp is easily achievable with a MP62 blower, I know of 3 or 4 cars touching 215bhp and 225bhp, both are intercooled and have no plans to run water injection.
I have a turbo but I'd like to see the facts coming out straight for a supercharger, there also the FFS who worked with BRP in the states that offers a Coldside kit and there's also the M45 Coldside (proper version - not because it's on the coldside of the engine)
The argument will always rage on but it's down to the owner at the end of the day but I think you need to do a little more reading Steve.
juzzyp said:
Eh? MP62 kits can give a range of horsepowers and boost which can also be adjusted, BRP also offer comprehensive instructions on home fitting.
There also the Jackson M45 charger (mentioned in the original post) which as being a MX5 Nutz member yourself you should know that there's loads of those kits fitted to 1.6 and 1.8 engines, just touching 200bhp without the aid of water injection.
Getting over 200bhp is easily achievable with a MP62 blower, I know of 3 or 4 cars touching 215bhp and 225bhp, both are intercooled and have no plans to run water injection.
I have a turbo but I'd like to see the facts coming out straight for a supercharger, there also the FFS who worked with BRP in the states that offers a Coldside kit and there's also the M45 Coldside (proper version - not because it's on the coldside of the engine)
The argument will always rage on but it's down to the owner at the end of the day but I think you need to do a little more reading Steve.
Calm down Juzzy, 3 or 4 cars known of touching 225; for the current generation of turbo kits thats the lower end of the scale. Most of the supercharger people all appear to advise other supercharger owners of getting WI, the whole "point" of a coldside supercharger is lack of inlet tract so giving instant throttle response, the very principle prevents the use of an intercooler.
steve bowen said:
the whole "point" of a coldside supercharger is lack of inlet tract so giving instant throttle response, the very principle prevents the use of an intercooler.
Not necessarily. Superchargers don't suffer from the delayed feedback that causes turbo lag. The only cause of lag in a supercharger is the delay in pressurising the volume of the intake system, and that doesn't take very long at all. For example on mine I have a couple of manifolds and a few feet of 3" pipework, and it still feels as if the throttle pedal is connected directly to the headrest. To support higher boost levels my plan is to run an air/air charge cooler several feet in front of the engine, and I'm not expecting that to introduce any noticeable lag either.
Sounds a good plan, what applications this on?
On the mx5 the "cold side" supercharger that hasn't really materialised yet in the UK due to fitment issues with the powersteering (not an issue in the USA) has people supporting it for 2 reasons. first its not sat above the exhaust manifold like other setups and as its on the cold side of the engine there is basically no inlet tract unlike the "hot side" kits that have a cross over pipe. On the "hotside kits" an IC can replace the crossover pipe, cold side theres no room for the pipework.
Thats how I understand the MX5 supercharger situation, if i'm wrong fair enough, maybe i'm out of date.
On the mx5 the "cold side" supercharger that hasn't really materialised yet in the UK due to fitment issues with the powersteering (not an issue in the USA) has people supporting it for 2 reasons. first its not sat above the exhaust manifold like other setups and as its on the cold side of the engine there is basically no inlet tract unlike the "hot side" kits that have a cross over pipe. On the "hotside kits" an IC can replace the crossover pipe, cold side theres no room for the pipework.
Thats how I understand the MX5 supercharger situation, if i'm wrong fair enough, maybe i'm out of date.
I don't have any experience of it but its one of the reasons given for trying to get the supercharger mounted on the inlet side. I'd have thought the main reason for it myself would be getting it away from the exhaust manifold. The current systems sit on top of the manifold and so must suffer heatsoak to some degree.
steve bowen said:
hasn't really materialised yet in the UK due to fitment issues with the powersteering
err.. power steering pump is dowwn on the right side of the engine.. actually just under the nose of a HOTside charger... it's the brake/clutch master cylinders that are causing problems with coldside fitment...
steve bowen said:
on the cold side of the engine there is basically no inlet tract.... cold side theres no room for the pipework.
the FM Uberchargers had a loop of pipework coming round from the charger outlet, that could either be plumbed directly into the inlet manifold, or to an intercooler, with a pipe running back from the IC to the inlet manifold...
Ah wrong bit in the way, oh well, still fitment issues however. Weren't the FM uberchargers taken off the market bascially as they came on it though?
Regards fitment of the intercooler, isn't that defeating the object of a cold side charger adding more pipework for fit an I/C than the hot side kits would require? I guess if people do this then the main reason for the coldside must be to excape the heat soak from the manifold, surely no one would bother otherwise?
Regards fitment of the intercooler, isn't that defeating the object of a cold side charger adding more pipework for fit an I/C than the hot side kits would require? I guess if people do this then the main reason for the coldside must be to excape the heat soak from the manifold, surely no one would bother otherwise?
Some interesting points, I chose the turbo as it allows me more flexbility with the tuning and my upgrade path, but I think there's always going to be a market for superchargers, to be fair, greg is turbo'd and steve is going turbo so there will be bias, even though Im turbo I still find the supercharged 5's a hoot to drive.
FM's Uberchargers were taken off the market as some of parts were made by Bell, so after Flyin Miata have finished developing their new turbo kits there get back to designing there Uber Kits with their own kit.
I personally don't find superchargers slow which is a very blinkered view, they can provide as much fun as a turbocharged car, but you need to know how to drive them.
I think we need some more experienced MX5 owners in this debate who've known the FI market for sometime and know what's available out there.
FM's Uberchargers were taken off the market as some of parts were made by Bell, so after Flyin Miata have finished developing their new turbo kits there get back to designing there Uber Kits with their own kit.
I personally don't find superchargers slow which is a very blinkered view, they can provide as much fun as a turbocharged car, but you need to know how to drive them.
I think we need some more experienced MX5 owners in this debate who've known the FI market for sometime and know what's available out there.
juzzyp said:
Some interesting points, I chose the turbo as it allows me more flexbility with the tuning and my upgrade path, but I think there's always going to be a market for superchargers, to be fair, greg is turbo'd and steve is going turbo so there will be bias, even though Im turbo I still find the supercharged 5's a hoot to drive.
FM's Uberchargers were taken off the market as some of parts were made by Bell, so after Flyin Miata have finished developing their new turbo kits there get back to designing there Uber Kits with their own kit.
I personally don't find superchargers slow which is a very blinkered view, they can provide as much fun as a turbocharged car, but you need to know how to drive them.
I think we need some more experienced MX5 owners in this debate who've known the FI market for sometime and know what's available out there.
FM's Uberchargers were taken off the market as some of parts were made by Bell, so after Flyin Miata have finished developing their new turbo kits there get back to designing there Uber Kits with their own kit.
I personally don't find superchargers slow which is a very blinkered view, they can provide as much fun as a turbocharged car, but you need to know how to drive them.
I think we need some more experienced MX5 owners in this debate who've known the FI market for sometime and know what's available out there.
I agree absolutely with you justin, there is bias, that said, i have been in a SC'd 5 and yes it was fun, but then any FI 5 is going to be fun, it is just that the great differentiator of the 2 ie lag vs power as a payoff is largely not there any more with the modern kits, you have the extra power of the turbo but not the lag of old, and like i said, who needs boost below 2k anyway.
SC whine is also very exotic sounding, which is a plus!!!
vive la difference
Greg
quite, but with an MP45 you are never going to get the "warp drive" you mentioned earlier in your initial post, with a M1 1.8 and few other mods, you will probably not get more than 130-140 hp at the wheels. it will be peppy but not fast, that is the downside of a cheaper installation, less power.
more than anything else, i am glad you like the car, that is all that matters at the end of the day.
more than anything else, i am glad you like the car, that is all that matters at the end of the day.
Los Angeles said:
greg_D said:
.. you will probably not get more than 130-140 hp at the wheels.
Ah, the "at the wheels" quibble. The supercharger is guaranteed to add 30 horsepower onto whatever the engine attains normally. That puts mine somewhere over 170, without the 10 more boasted by the manufacturers of the SS wide bore exhaust. (Try 3 more!) I don't wish to sound competitive, am only backing what its says on the tin. Erm, I'm not quite sure what you are getting at with the "at the wheels quibble" it is the basis that everyone goes by when comparing power, and given the transmission losses on the 5 running at 37hp (for a mk.2 anyway - i would imagine a mk.1 would be near identical) that would put your power at 136rwhp (just like i said) and believe me, you are not getting competitive with my turbo.
i think we are vigorously agreeing at the moment.
edit: i know this is being picky, but i notice that your car is a '91 1.6, wikipedia puts these at 120 hp (i thought it was less C.90 hp, but i will give it the benefit of the doubt) that would put your power at somewhere around 116 rwhp. Engage the dylithium crystals indeed!!!!!!
also try www.mx5mad.com/product_info.php?cPath=26_36&products_id=162
they did my turbo
they did my turbo
Edited by greg_D on Thursday 14th September 17:10
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