Quick Question: Mk3 MR2 - Drive-by-Wire?
Discussion
BMW 330 coupe. Bl**Dy awful! I only bought it a few months ago and now I'm going to have to sell it... It is so horrible to drive!
I admit, every car company does it differently, but I've never driven a car with DBW that I get on with. The 350Z was a complete joke, as are all modern BMWs, etc etc.
I've yet to drive the new shape Celica
I was just interested to know. Sometimes, test drives are too short to suss out a good DBW system. On the best DBW I've ever driven, it was half an hour into a drive before I went round a certain bend and came on the throttle in a certain way and realised I wasn't buying the car.
I admit, every car company does it differently, but I've never driven a car with DBW that I get on with. The 350Z was a complete joke, as are all modern BMWs, etc etc.
I've yet to drive the new shape Celica
I was just interested to know. Sometimes, test drives are too short to suss out a good DBW system. On the best DBW I've ever driven, it was half an hour into a drive before I went round a certain bend and came on the throttle in a certain way and realised I wasn't buying the car.
That all sounds very weird. The only thing I have ever had is the car not getting full throttle in 1st sometimes 2nd gear( still enough throttle to post a 4.4sec 0-60 though 
), but I assume its traction related. Apart from that it works faultlessly. Maybe Toyota have it sussed. Shocked at BMW though.
), but I assume its traction related. Apart from that it works faultlessly. Maybe Toyota have it sussed. Shocked at BMW though.Yes, if you do a search you can see me moaning on other threads about this, and lots of other BMW owners agreeing with me!
Most modern cars have about a second delay between pressing the throttle pedal and the engine responding. This is a software delay, and the engine does nothing. You can tap your foot up and down on the throttle at and speed and in any gear (including first in car parks), and nothing happens.
The worst cars that I've driven for this are the Peugeot 407, the Renault Megane and Vectra.
My BMW 330 has about a 3/4 of a second delay and it makes the car dangerous in traffic, lethal on slippery roads (you can't come on the throttle gently, as you put the throttle somewhere and in a second the engine suddenly gives you what you asked - which with a 231bhp engine is usually a bit jerk as 40 or 50bhp is unleashed in one go!), and impossible to balance in a bend. An awful driving experience. Mine is a 2000 model, which I have now found out are well known for it (thanks to all the car magazines and review sites like Parkers/Fifth Gear that failed to tell me this!!
). Brand new BMWs (and ones made after 2003) have a much smaller delay.
This effect is smoothed out somewhat by the fact that the throttle ramps up to the value you've asked of it over a short period of time. The Nissan 350Z just switches to what you want!! Am I alone in hating the 350Z because of this?
I have driven sports cars with BDW throttles, and there is a tiny delay, and you notice this as a lack of crispness, and something getting in the way of you serenely balancing the car through a delicate touch in a bend (what driving is all about for me).
I don't want to make this mistake again and lose more money. The two cars on my shortlist are the MR2 and the Elise. The Elise has a cable (until next year, when it gets DBW...), and I wondered about the MR2.
Most modern cars have about a second delay between pressing the throttle pedal and the engine responding. This is a software delay, and the engine does nothing. You can tap your foot up and down on the throttle at and speed and in any gear (including first in car parks), and nothing happens.
The worst cars that I've driven for this are the Peugeot 407, the Renault Megane and Vectra.
My BMW 330 has about a 3/4 of a second delay and it makes the car dangerous in traffic, lethal on slippery roads (you can't come on the throttle gently, as you put the throttle somewhere and in a second the engine suddenly gives you what you asked - which with a 231bhp engine is usually a bit jerk as 40 or 50bhp is unleashed in one go!), and impossible to balance in a bend. An awful driving experience. Mine is a 2000 model, which I have now found out are well known for it (thanks to all the car magazines and review sites like Parkers/Fifth Gear that failed to tell me this!!
). Brand new BMWs (and ones made after 2003) have a much smaller delay. This effect is smoothed out somewhat by the fact that the throttle ramps up to the value you've asked of it over a short period of time. The Nissan 350Z just switches to what you want!! Am I alone in hating the 350Z because of this?
I have driven sports cars with BDW throttles, and there is a tiny delay, and you notice this as a lack of crispness, and something getting in the way of you serenely balancing the car through a delicate touch in a bend (what driving is all about for me).
I don't want to make this mistake again and lose more money. The two cars on my shortlist are the MR2 and the Elise. The Elise has a cable (until next year, when it gets DBW...), and I wondered about the MR2.
Not sure if BM's are the same but the Toyota unit uses a cable throttle which activates the DBW. If there is slack in the cable you will get a delay ( not a noticable one that you are on about though)There are two TPS one from the cable and the other the DBW so you can see how that would cause a delay with a slack cable. I must say my throttle as easily as fast a a cable operated one. I have datalogs which back this up.
>> Edited by Turbo T on Monday 21st November 11:35
>> Edited by Turbo T on Monday 21st November 11:35
I'm not sure how the BMW works, but it is certainly very different to an ordinary cable straight to the engine! If you gently push the throttle pedal all the way down into the carpet you get nothing at all. About 3/4 of a second later you get an almighty kick in the back followed by some squirming and the traction control light!
When you come off the brakes and onto a steady throttle at the turn-in for a bend, you are left coasting for the first 3/4 of a second (so tending to oversteer). Then, suddenly, the power spikes in near the apex and you understeer wide. Very dodgy!
When you come off the brakes and onto a steady throttle at the turn-in for a bend, you are left coasting for the first 3/4 of a second (so tending to oversteer). Then, suddenly, the power spikes in near the apex and you understeer wide. Very dodgy!
Just musing here really
Slow DBW Software. It's interesting, I've not knowingly, driven any DBW cars(except Vectra) so can't make any particularly valuable comments.
there is no way that modern software shouldn't be able to react instantly to DBW driver inputs.That being true, the manuf's must have designed it that way, tho I really can't think of a single good reason why, doen't really make sense to me. If DBW *response/timing lag* is set in the ecu somewhere its values ought to be hackable I suppose.
Anyone know much about DBW systems?
Slow DBW Software. It's interesting, I've not knowingly, driven any DBW cars(except Vectra) so can't make any particularly valuable comments.
there is no way that modern software shouldn't be able to react instantly to DBW driver inputs.That being true, the manuf's must have designed it that way, tho I really can't think of a single good reason why, doen't really make sense to me. If DBW *response/timing lag* is set in the ecu somewhere its values ought to be hackable I suppose.
Anyone know much about DBW systems?
I don't know much about them, but since I bought my present I have learnt a fair bit from various people.
Firstly, you can hack into the ECU and change things. I have driven a BMW similar to mine that had had expensive fettling performed on it. The delay was lessened but not removed. It was still useless as a driver's car even after the changes!
The reasons? These are summed up nicely here:
www.picotech.com/auto/applications/electronic_throttle_control.html
They don't mention the trouble my cruise control has with the delay! It is hilarious watching it over compensate and get itself truly confused!
Sadly, the result is that I have not yet driven a single DBW car that is any good. People vary in their sensitivity to this. I noticed the DBW on the 350Z pulling out of the Nissan dealer! (the 350Z isn't so much a delay, moreso just a very strange jumpy throttle action). I had a brief conversation with the salesman and that was it - no sales push - he knew I wasn't going to go anywhere with the car because of it. Interestingly though, Tiff Needell loves the car. I'd love to drive one with him and ask him what he thinks.
Then there's the not-so sporty cars in which you can count to three before the throttle responds. I can't believe that DBW isn't better known (and hated) amongst ordinary drivers. My friend has a Megane Scenic at the moment and it is just laughable. He demonstrated it to us on Friday night and all my friends were amazed. We nearly had an accident the other day when he had just got the car - we were approaching a roundabout and a car was approaching us turning right into our road. We accelerated to go left and nothing happened! We were left stranded as this other car came round the roundabout towards us! I heard my friend's foot hit the carpet and still nothing! Then there was this massive jerk as full throttle came in and we were rescued from the jaws of disaster. My friend (who was driving) is a trained driving instructor - he was not amused.
It is a shame, because cars like the BMW 330 coupe and 3450Z are truly wonderful pieces of engineering. So much thought and effort has gone into them only to be ruined by a potentiometer!
Firstly, you can hack into the ECU and change things. I have driven a BMW similar to mine that had had expensive fettling performed on it. The delay was lessened but not removed. It was still useless as a driver's car even after the changes!
The reasons? These are summed up nicely here:
www.picotech.com/auto/applications/electronic_throttle_control.html
They don't mention the trouble my cruise control has with the delay! It is hilarious watching it over compensate and get itself truly confused!
Sadly, the result is that I have not yet driven a single DBW car that is any good. People vary in their sensitivity to this. I noticed the DBW on the 350Z pulling out of the Nissan dealer! (the 350Z isn't so much a delay, moreso just a very strange jumpy throttle action). I had a brief conversation with the salesman and that was it - no sales push - he knew I wasn't going to go anywhere with the car because of it. Interestingly though, Tiff Needell loves the car. I'd love to drive one with him and ask him what he thinks.
Then there's the not-so sporty cars in which you can count to three before the throttle responds. I can't believe that DBW isn't better known (and hated) amongst ordinary drivers. My friend has a Megane Scenic at the moment and it is just laughable. He demonstrated it to us on Friday night and all my friends were amazed. We nearly had an accident the other day when he had just got the car - we were approaching a roundabout and a car was approaching us turning right into our road. We accelerated to go left and nothing happened! We were left stranded as this other car came round the roundabout towards us! I heard my friend's foot hit the carpet and still nothing! Then there was this massive jerk as full throttle came in and we were rescued from the jaws of disaster. My friend (who was driving) is a trained driving instructor - he was not amused.
It is a shame, because cars like the BMW 330 coupe and 3450Z are truly wonderful pieces of engineering. So much thought and effort has gone into them only to be ruined by a potentiometer!
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