Best Coilovers for Skyline R33 GTST S2 RB25DET for £1000
Discussion
Hi All,
I would like some advice on coilovers for my R33 GTST S2 RB25DET.
Mostly road use, occasional track day, I will only be using the car at weekends to go to shows and meets.
My budget is £1000 max.
I would also like advice on where I can get OEM bushing, I would like to replace all the bushes with OEM ones as I've been told that polybushes wear very quickly and are squeaky.
Any help, advice and suggestions are greatly appreciated...
Many Thanks
I would like some advice on coilovers for my R33 GTST S2 RB25DET.
Mostly road use, occasional track day, I will only be using the car at weekends to go to shows and meets.
My budget is £1000 max.
I would also like advice on where I can get OEM bushing, I would like to replace all the bushes with OEM ones as I've been told that polybushes wear very quickly and are squeaky.
Any help, advice and suggestions are greatly appreciated...
Many Thanks
TommoAE86 said:
When I had my 33 GTS-T I just asked my garage to find bushes that were a close to OEM as possible, I've had a search through my invoices but can't find exactly what they were I'm afraid. Unhelpfully remember they came from Germany and took awhile.
That's fine, no problem, I have been told HardRace do rubber bushes so will follow that line of inquiry for now.My personal experience with coilovers in that price bracket (on my S13) was that they were terrible, and ruined the car - far too stiff and bouncy, never settled, made it easy to lose grip/traction (even after getting wheels in motion to adjust them), to the point I took off my newly installed coilovers and put on KYB AGX dampers with some lowering springs instead, which were ok - lower than stock but still a useable ride height, and overall somewhat better ride + handling than stock (much better than the coilovers).
2x other cars I owned/rode in in Japan on coilovers were similarly awful (S13, R33 GTS-T).
If at all possible, try and get a chance to ride in a car with them on before committing to a set of coilovers - by the time you've bought, shipped, fitted, adjusted them and re-aligned the suspension, there's a lot of time, money and effort involved, all wasted if you find out they're ruining your car for you.
I fully believe that good coilovers exist, but I think they cost more than £1k unfortunately. So I'd be inclined towards a good set of dampers and some lowering springs personally - looking at a small step up in spring rate (up to around 50% perhaps) rather than the triple or more that coilovers often seem to offer.
If you are after a coilover that retains ride comfort and doesn't have an excessive spring rate for a road car then HSD are worth looking at as they offer a range of spring rates combined with adjustable dampeners so can tailor a set for road more so than track spec. Bilstein B16 is also a highly regarded suspension kit known for comfort as much as performance.
The likes of BC, Meister R, Yellowspeed ( which tbh i think are largely all the same designs) are all popular at the roughly 1k price range. A quick google suggests a standard Skyline GTST spring rate is around 4kg/3kg front/rear which ought to give you an idea of where you are starting, some of the previously mentioned brands supply 14+ kg springs over 3x stiffer than standard!
The likes of BC, Meister R, Yellowspeed ( which tbh i think are largely all the same designs) are all popular at the roughly 1k price range. A quick google suggests a standard Skyline GTST spring rate is around 4kg/3kg front/rear which ought to give you an idea of where you are starting, some of the previously mentioned brands supply 14+ kg springs over 3x stiffer than standard!
Just to add, when getting shocks and springs, it's the shocks that are more important.
Springs are simple things, you only really need to know how much lower they are, and the spring rate. With the same length and rate, pretty much any spring will drive the same as any other. So as long as it's not going to break, doesn't need to be particularly expensive, and used ones are generally fine if you find them.
Shocks on the other hand are a world of subtlety in terms of how the damping rate varies with the bump speed. When car journos rave about how well a car handles on a good B-road, a lot of that is in the shocks. So with the shocks you generally want new parts (since they wear out), and the best you can accommodate in your budget. Not that there are a lot of options with standalone shocks, but this is where to invest.
The other thing I think shocks will say if they are designed to be used with lowering springs, i.e. a range of ride heights relative to stock. So worth looking for shocks that work with the ride height you're going for with the lowering springs.
Finally if you do this and still feel you're getting too much roll, not enough steering response, or 'wallow' laterally when snapping from right to left or vice-versa, (moderately) uprated anti-roll bars are another inexpensive option you can add on later if required.
aka_kerrly said:
If you are after a coilover that retains ride comfort and doesn't have an excessive spring rate for a road car then HSD are worth looking at as they offer a range of spring rates combined with adjustable dampeners so can tailor a set for road more so than track spec. Bilstein B16 is also a highly regarded suspension kit known for comfort as much as performance.
The likes of BC, Meister R, Yellowspeed ( which tbh i think are largely all the same designs) are all popular at the roughly 1k price range. A quick google suggests a standard Skyline GTST spring rate is around 4kg/3kg front/rear which ought to give you an idea of where you are starting, some of the previously mentioned brands supply 14+ kg springs over 3x stiffer than standard!
Thank youThe likes of BC, Meister R, Yellowspeed ( which tbh i think are largely all the same designs) are all popular at the roughly 1k price range. A quick google suggests a standard Skyline GTST spring rate is around 4kg/3kg front/rear which ought to give you an idea of where you are starting, some of the previously mentioned brands supply 14+ kg springs over 3x stiffer than standard!
samoht said:
Just to add, when getting shocks and springs, it's the shocks that are more important.
Springs are simple things, you only really need to know how much lower they are, and the spring rate. With the same length and rate, pretty much any spring will drive the same as any other. So as long as it's not going to break, doesn't need to be particularly expensive, and used ones are generally fine if you find them.
Shocks on the other hand are a world of subtlety in terms of how the damping rate varies with the bump speed. When car journos rave about how well a car handles on a good B-road, a lot of that is in the shocks. So with the shocks you generally want new parts (since they wear out), and the best you can accommodate in your budget. Not that there are a lot of options with standalone shocks, but this is where to invest.
The other thing I think shocks will say if they are designed to be used with lowering springs, i.e. a range of ride heights relative to stock. So worth looking for shocks that work with the ride height you're going for with the lowering springs.
Finally if you do this and still feel you're getting too much roll, not enough steering response, or 'wallow' laterally when snapping from right to left or vice-versa, (moderately) uprated anti-roll bars are another inexpensive option you can add on later if required.
Thank youSprings are simple things, you only really need to know how much lower they are, and the spring rate. With the same length and rate, pretty much any spring will drive the same as any other. So as long as it's not going to break, doesn't need to be particularly expensive, and used ones are generally fine if you find them.
Shocks on the other hand are a world of subtlety in terms of how the damping rate varies with the bump speed. When car journos rave about how well a car handles on a good B-road, a lot of that is in the shocks. So with the shocks you generally want new parts (since they wear out), and the best you can accommodate in your budget. Not that there are a lot of options with standalone shocks, but this is where to invest.
The other thing I think shocks will say if they are designed to be used with lowering springs, i.e. a range of ride heights relative to stock. So worth looking for shocks that work with the ride height you're going for with the lowering springs.
Finally if you do this and still feel you're getting too much roll, not enough steering response, or 'wallow' laterally when snapping from right to left or vice-versa, (moderately) uprated anti-roll bars are another inexpensive option you can add on later if required.
FWIW, the terrible coilovers I had on my S13 were (Driftworks) HSDs, fitted with the softest available springs. Now, maybe they've got better in the intervening decade since then, but I wouldn't personally bet my £1k on it without a ride in a car with them to find out for myself.
As you say, coilover spring rates are very often much, much higher than stock, and I think that's a large part of the issue (especially for road use), the other part being not that sophisticated damping.
Personally if stock is 4/3, I'd be looking for around 6/4 rates for aftermarket, that should support a noticeable ride height drop and sharpen it up, without going too far. As mentioned the quality of the damping is vital though.
samoht said:
Springs are simple things, you only really need to know how much lower they are, and the spring rate. With the same length and rate, pretty much any spring will drive the same as any other. So as long as it's not going to break, doesn't need to be particularly expensive, and used ones are generally fine if you find them.
.
That's quite an understatement, far more to consider in what a spring does. If you start with the number of coils, the diameter of the coils, the spacing in the coils, progressive wound springs versus linear rates these are just a few examples of how a spring can be designed to make a huge difference or a small difference versus the OEM version. Even the best spring in world can still be terrible when combined with too high/low dampening rates or not enough operating range which is why both springs & dampeners have to work in harmony to get the best results. .
aka_kerrly said:
samoht said:
Springs are simple things, you only really need to know how much lower they are, and the spring rate. With the same length and rate, pretty much any spring will drive the same as any other. So as long as it's not going to break, doesn't need to be particularly expensive, and used ones are generally fine if you find them.
.
That's quite an understatement, far more to consider in what a spring does. If you start with the number of coils, the diameter of the coils, the spacing in the coils, progressive wound springs versus linear rates these are just a few examples of how a spring can be designed to make a huge difference or a small difference versus the OEM version. Even the best spring in world can still be terrible when combined with too high/low dampening rates or not enough operating range which is why both springs & dampeners have to work in harmony to get the best results. .
sanguinary said:
I put Meister R coilovers and springs on mine. Probably 10 years ago now. They worked really well for me. I did get the car properly set up on them too, which makes the world of difference.
This is also a great point. Having the best coilovers is pointless if you just take them out the wrapping and slap them on. The ability to adjust the overall height is only one small part of what can be done. Often the top end coilovers have adjustable top mounts which allow much more adjustability to camber, strut angle and the geometry of the steering which ultimately is what can make or break a great driving experience. Agree about getting coilovers set up properly, the most basic thing is probably the pre-load which is v important to have right, and yes full alignment is needed anyway after changing ride height, but gives an opportunity to adjust things not just to 'stock' but to more sporting settings.
Although I believe (could be wrong) that since the Skyline is double wishbone front suspension, the coilover can't change the camber as it can on a McPherson strut car like the S-bodies, you'd need some separate aftermarket parts for that. Of course you still want to ensure the camber is set the best you can within the available range of adjustment.
Progressive rate springs (which increase in stiffness as they are deflected more) are indeed a little more sophisticated, and can be useful if you want a lower ride height without sacrificing too much compliance, by keeping a lower spring rate at the normal wheel position, but ramping it up as the travel increases to help avoid bottoming out. In this case you have to consider the minimum and maximum spring rates, and the transition between them, so I agree it's a little more involved.
However it's still something that can be fully captured by a simple 2d graph of force against deflection, so an order of magnitude simpler than dampers which can have highly non-linear behaviour of force against speed of deflection, differing force in bump and rebound, and potential user adjustments of high and low speed bump and rebound.
I guess what I'm saying is that if I had to choose between higher quality springs or higher quality dampers, I'd definitely choose the dampers as it makes more difference.
Fully agree that the spring length needs to match the damper's working range, and the damping rate to spring rate ratio is critical - too far away from equilibrium will pretty much guarantee terrible results.
Although I believe (could be wrong) that since the Skyline is double wishbone front suspension, the coilover can't change the camber as it can on a McPherson strut car like the S-bodies, you'd need some separate aftermarket parts for that. Of course you still want to ensure the camber is set the best you can within the available range of adjustment.
aka_kerrly said:
That's quite an understatement, far more to consider in what a spring does. If you start with the number of coils, the diameter of the coils, the spacing in the coils, progressive wound springs versus linear rates these are just a few examples of how a spring can be designed to make a huge difference or a small difference versus the OEM version. Even the best spring in world can still be terrible when combined with too high/low dampening rates or not enough operating range which is why both springs & dampeners have to work in harmony to get the best results.
A spring simply provides a force in proportion to its deflection. Sticking with linear springs, it doesn't matter how many coils it has or the spacing - the spring rate and the length will fully determine its behaviour on the car. (Of course for a given thickness of metal, more coils will equate to a softer spring rate, but if you know the rate you know the behaviour).Progressive rate springs (which increase in stiffness as they are deflected more) are indeed a little more sophisticated, and can be useful if you want a lower ride height without sacrificing too much compliance, by keeping a lower spring rate at the normal wheel position, but ramping it up as the travel increases to help avoid bottoming out. In this case you have to consider the minimum and maximum spring rates, and the transition between them, so I agree it's a little more involved.
However it's still something that can be fully captured by a simple 2d graph of force against deflection, so an order of magnitude simpler than dampers which can have highly non-linear behaviour of force against speed of deflection, differing force in bump and rebound, and potential user adjustments of high and low speed bump and rebound.
I guess what I'm saying is that if I had to choose between higher quality springs or higher quality dampers, I'd definitely choose the dampers as it makes more difference.
Fully agree that the spring length needs to match the damper's working range, and the damping rate to spring rate ratio is critical - too far away from equilibrium will pretty much guarantee terrible results.
I used to have Teins (Superstreets) on my 33 GTST and they were too hard for the road imo , but that was 2005 and my mate bought some for his 33 gtst about 4 years ago and they drive great , the ride is really good and not too hard , always like the BC's as well but dont think they hold up as well as the Teins do
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