Decisions: CTR to DC2 ITR
Discussion
Folks,
At present I'm doing my best to terrorise the back roads of Berkshire and Hampshire in my CTR. I enjoy having to wind it up a bit to get the best out of it but also the fact that it can be driven fairly economically and smoothly when you're just not in the mood and is extremely practical with a hooge boot if you put the back seats down (can't believe I just said that on PH!!) However, over the past few months I've noticed there are gradually more and more things that are beginning to bug me with the driving experience, like the lack of an LSD, the OK but not great driving position, seats that could do with supporting your legs and bum a bit etc. Previously I had a DC2 with a few probs for a few months, but traded it to get the CTR new. Now I'm in two minds whether to be grateful for what I've got and keep hold of it, or sell it and pick up a mint example one of the last of the DC2 Integras as it seems to fit the bil for what I'm after.
A couple of months ago I looked into getting an imported DC5 but the combination of my age, relative lack of NCB (only 2 years) and insurance didn't bode well, plus it would have meant splashing more cash on cars that really could be stashed away as savings for the future. Going back to a DC2 would at least be friendly on the bank balance!!
Both cars have similar pace in the real world, would cost similar amounts to run etc so that doesn't matter really. After driving an S2000 a fair bit recently, and from what I can remember of the Teg, the noise and more stepped nature VTEC seemed/felt more evocative and fun. CTR iVTEC, although more torquey and pretty effective, seems a bit anodyne, almost sewing machine like. I remember the old Teg Recaro's being a snug, enveloping fit providing excellent support in all the right places, and the driving position being spot on. Interior wise the dash was fairly bland but perfectly functional. The techie side of double wishbone suspension on a purpose built sporting car appeals, compared to the souping up of a shopping car with struts etc. Is it a step down though to go back to the older model, with older technology, few gears etc.
Do I just have the old rose tinted specs on, grass always being greener on the other side and all that? What d'ya reckon? Maybe I just need to find a DC2 to have a look around for a while to make my mind up or get it out of my system. Any offers around Reading or Basingstoke?
At present I'm doing my best to terrorise the back roads of Berkshire and Hampshire in my CTR. I enjoy having to wind it up a bit to get the best out of it but also the fact that it can be driven fairly economically and smoothly when you're just not in the mood and is extremely practical with a hooge boot if you put the back seats down (can't believe I just said that on PH!!) However, over the past few months I've noticed there are gradually more and more things that are beginning to bug me with the driving experience, like the lack of an LSD, the OK but not great driving position, seats that could do with supporting your legs and bum a bit etc. Previously I had a DC2 with a few probs for a few months, but traded it to get the CTR new. Now I'm in two minds whether to be grateful for what I've got and keep hold of it, or sell it and pick up a mint example one of the last of the DC2 Integras as it seems to fit the bil for what I'm after.
A couple of months ago I looked into getting an imported DC5 but the combination of my age, relative lack of NCB (only 2 years) and insurance didn't bode well, plus it would have meant splashing more cash on cars that really could be stashed away as savings for the future. Going back to a DC2 would at least be friendly on the bank balance!!
Both cars have similar pace in the real world, would cost similar amounts to run etc so that doesn't matter really. After driving an S2000 a fair bit recently, and from what I can remember of the Teg, the noise and more stepped nature VTEC seemed/felt more evocative and fun. CTR iVTEC, although more torquey and pretty effective, seems a bit anodyne, almost sewing machine like. I remember the old Teg Recaro's being a snug, enveloping fit providing excellent support in all the right places, and the driving position being spot on. Interior wise the dash was fairly bland but perfectly functional. The techie side of double wishbone suspension on a purpose built sporting car appeals, compared to the souping up of a shopping car with struts etc. Is it a step down though to go back to the older model, with older technology, few gears etc.
Do I just have the old rose tinted specs on, grass always being greener on the other side and all that? What d'ya reckon? Maybe I just need to find a DC2 to have a look around for a while to make my mind up or get it out of my system. Any offers around Reading or Basingstoke?
i can understand why you got the ctr new,the car has potential in all the right places,but if you had got it to replace something worse then i can fully appreciate,but a dc2? i think you should without doubt say goodbye to the ctr and find a nice mint dc2.
shame about the dc5 though killing on insurance. i was planning ahead not so long ago but then i found out how much it would be to insure one with the same ncb as you.ouch...
shame about the dc5 though killing on insurance. i was planning ahead not so long ago but then i found out how much it would be to insure one with the same ncb as you.ouch...
Nah, still with what you've got.
but throw a couple of K at the ctr
jackson racing supercharger
jdm lsd (or a cusco item)
30Ae recaro seats
set of coil overs and camber adjusters
increased power, traction and control all in one nice package. Far better than going back a step to the dc2.
mind you, stick most of the aforementioned items on a DC5 and you'll have some serious FUN
but throw a couple of K at the ctr
jackson racing supercharger
jdm lsd (or a cusco item)
30Ae recaro seats
set of coil overs and camber adjusters
increased power, traction and control all in one nice package. Far better than going back a step to the dc2.
mind you, stick most of the aforementioned items on a DC5 and you'll have some serious FUN
In terms of a tactile driving experience, by all accounts it doesn't sound like a DC2 would be a backward step.....
I'm in the market for a Teg - haven't quite made up my mind which one though, but a CTR is out the question for me, it just doesn't appeal and doesn't have the same "focus".
RedTeg!!
I'm in the market for a Teg - haven't quite made up my mind which one though, but a CTR is out the question for me, it just doesn't appeal and doesn't have the same "focus".
RedTeg!! As a DC2 owner for 2.5 years, I can honestly say it's the best all-round car I've driven. I love it to bits, even now. BUT - I am starting to hit bills (4.5 years old and 63k).
So a second-hand DC2 is not necessarily a "cheap" ownership prospect anymore (compared to near-new CTR):-
-Brake disks are DEFINITELY consumables if you do trackdays!!! (Although ~40k for OEM isn't bad);
-Clutch won't probably last more than 40-60k, depending on driving;
-Bushes need changing ~ 60k or so;
-Cambelt at 63k;
-looking forwards, likely to hit dampers, maybe exhaust, maybe engine niggles over the next couple of years.
Having said that, for the performance AND the pure fun and interactivity involved, you need to look quite far to get an equivalent:-
Elise Sport-160 / 111S, Scooby STi, Focus RS, or similar category machinery.
So what am I doing...it still makes me grin time and time again, warts (bills!) and all, and I am almost certainly going to suck it up, get her sorted, and do some more trackdays when the bank balance allows!!! I've been thinking, and for < £15k and < 4 years old, there isn't a lot that's as practical and as good.
If the CTR doesn't "do it" for you, and you want some VTEC-like fun, go back...or get an Elise Type-R???
So a second-hand DC2 is not necessarily a "cheap" ownership prospect anymore (compared to near-new CTR):-
-Brake disks are DEFINITELY consumables if you do trackdays!!! (Although ~40k for OEM isn't bad);
-Clutch won't probably last more than 40-60k, depending on driving;
-Bushes need changing ~ 60k or so;
-Cambelt at 63k;
-looking forwards, likely to hit dampers, maybe exhaust, maybe engine niggles over the next couple of years.
Having said that, for the performance AND the pure fun and interactivity involved, you need to look quite far to get an equivalent:-
Elise Sport-160 / 111S, Scooby STi, Focus RS, or similar category machinery.
So what am I doing...it still makes me grin time and time again, warts (bills!) and all, and I am almost certainly going to suck it up, get her sorted, and do some more trackdays when the bank balance allows!!! I've been thinking, and for < £15k and < 4 years old, there isn't a lot that's as practical and as good.
If the CTR doesn't "do it" for you, and you want some VTEC-like fun, go back...or get an Elise Type-R???
ApexClipper said:
Can't add to what Havoc has said, reckon he has it spot on.
Had some bad luck with niggles over the last 4-6 months. Most recently replaced the clutch at 46k (spring escaping from the pressure plate).
I've only driven my DC2 and been a passenger in a DC5, however my petrolhead mate(VW devotee) has driven my DC2 and a CTR and would favour the DC2 every time.
>> Edited by RedTeg on Tuesday 9th November 10:24
I'm with nighthawk on this one
I know Tegs are supposed to be ledgendary but chopping a new car for an old one doesn't sound logical. You should look forwards to how good you could make the CTR not go backwards in my opinion (check out the one for sale in the classifieds in Milano red with the white wheels)
Any shortcomings in the handling and driving experience of a CTR can be sorted with a bit of work. I've had feelings myself of getting shut of mine but spent all afternoon last Friday polishing and waxing it, checking the oil, tyre pressures etc. and when I'd finished it and looked at it sitting on the drive I thought, "How the hell can I sell that."
And, a few months ago I got an entire bathroom suite inside the boot, Sink, bath, bog, pedastal and all the fittings...that's one last boring detail to leave you with...now go and buy a Teg!
I know Tegs are supposed to be ledgendary but chopping a new car for an old one doesn't sound logical. You should look forwards to how good you could make the CTR not go backwards in my opinion (check out the one for sale in the classifieds in Milano red with the white wheels)
Any shortcomings in the handling and driving experience of a CTR can be sorted with a bit of work. I've had feelings myself of getting shut of mine but spent all afternoon last Friday polishing and waxing it, checking the oil, tyre pressures etc. and when I'd finished it and looked at it sitting on the drive I thought, "How the hell can I sell that."
And, a few months ago I got an entire bathroom suite inside the boot, Sink, bath, bog, pedastal and all the fittings...that's one last boring detail to leave you with...now go and buy a Teg!
ONLY a bathroom suite??? 
If you've compared them, you'd actually realise the 'tegs got more haulage space.
But that's not really the issue. All-round double-wishbones, torsen-style LSD as standard (See foot of post!), lower and better driving position, Recaro's as standard, exclusivity as standard...these seem like better issues. As does the lack of depreciation.
But I can see this turning into a "vs" thread, and that would just end in tears. Foggy used to have a DC-2, so knows how they compare. He also doesn't sound like he's got £'000s to spend on mods, which puts the FI and LSD route out for the short-term. The CTR IS a very good car, with a better engine and comparable 'box (+ an extra cog) to the DC-2. But they ARE different...and only foggy can decide which he prefers.
(Note: Torsen-style diffs don't work well on fwd cars with MacPherson Struts - they cause torque steer (a-la Focus RS). Due to the additional links present in a double-wishbone set-up, the geometry has additional stability, and resists diff-induced torque-steer very well. So putting a torsen diff in a CTR or DC-5 will likely give you torque steer - you have been warned!)
If you've compared them, you'd actually realise the 'tegs got more haulage space.
But that's not really the issue. All-round double-wishbones, torsen-style LSD as standard (See foot of post!), lower and better driving position, Recaro's as standard, exclusivity as standard...these seem like better issues. As does the lack of depreciation.
But I can see this turning into a "vs" thread, and that would just end in tears. Foggy used to have a DC-2, so knows how they compare. He also doesn't sound like he's got £'000s to spend on mods, which puts the FI and LSD route out for the short-term. The CTR IS a very good car, with a better engine and comparable 'box (+ an extra cog) to the DC-2. But they ARE different...and only foggy can decide which he prefers.
(Note: Torsen-style diffs don't work well on fwd cars with MacPherson Struts - they cause torque steer (a-la Focus RS). Due to the additional links present in a double-wishbone set-up, the geometry has additional stability, and resists diff-induced torque-steer very well. So putting a torsen diff in a CTR or DC-5 will likely give you torque steer - you have been warned!)
Merky buckets and all that for your contributions.
More power/speed isn’t really what I’m after. Both cars can serve up plenty that can get you into trouble if you make full use of the revs, and I like the fact you can use the majority of the speed available on a regular basis - they seem quite fit for their purpose. I don’t doubt that supercharging it would generate a rapid rice rocket, but you’d still be left with the driving position and general lack of feel compared to the Teg. I hate to refer to the CTR as the proverbial turd because it is by no means, I have had some awesome drives in it around Wales, Yorkshire and Scotland, but modding it would only be trying to polish the unpolishable.
I think the main problem is I’ve experienced the Teg and it’s set such a great precedent that very few other cars can match. AlexClipper summed up the Teg in 3 words with ‘tactile driving experience’. It’s not all about the sheer speed, they feel special to drive and give you feedback in a way the CTR cannot even get near to. It’s as though the ITR was designed/developed by engineers trying to create the ultimate FWD motor by concentrating on the feel of the car, whereas The CTR was an idea that marketing came up with, to spice up a current car, make it look good on paper as cheaply as possible (engine with plenty of grunt, low 0-60 time for the class, a front lip and spoiler on the back etc) but they didn’t bother to work too much on the overall feel of the car to create a matching driving experience.
Havoc mentioned the main things putting me off getting one, that is the potential for some fairly hefty bills to replace things that have worn out (bushes, dampers, brakes clutch etc) that must be done to make the car feel right. Plus there’s the inconvenience of having what would be my only car in the garage often to get things done, although once everything is sorted it should be good for another 40k or so.
I reckon that the CTR will probably stay over the winter, but come the spring it will be time to change. A fresh imported DC5 should fit the bill and be reliable, I haven’t heard of any problems regarding torque steer in the reviews I’ve read, then again VTEC engines probably don’t generate enough torque to make it a real issue. There’s always the option of an S2000 for some RWD topless fun, or my brother mentioned getting a VX220 turbo instead. Might be wise to get a cheap old Beemer or something for a few months to get used to the RWD first though.
More power/speed isn’t really what I’m after. Both cars can serve up plenty that can get you into trouble if you make full use of the revs, and I like the fact you can use the majority of the speed available on a regular basis - they seem quite fit for their purpose. I don’t doubt that supercharging it would generate a rapid rice rocket, but you’d still be left with the driving position and general lack of feel compared to the Teg. I hate to refer to the CTR as the proverbial turd because it is by no means, I have had some awesome drives in it around Wales, Yorkshire and Scotland, but modding it would only be trying to polish the unpolishable.
I think the main problem is I’ve experienced the Teg and it’s set such a great precedent that very few other cars can match. AlexClipper summed up the Teg in 3 words with ‘tactile driving experience’. It’s not all about the sheer speed, they feel special to drive and give you feedback in a way the CTR cannot even get near to. It’s as though the ITR was designed/developed by engineers trying to create the ultimate FWD motor by concentrating on the feel of the car, whereas The CTR was an idea that marketing came up with, to spice up a current car, make it look good on paper as cheaply as possible (engine with plenty of grunt, low 0-60 time for the class, a front lip and spoiler on the back etc) but they didn’t bother to work too much on the overall feel of the car to create a matching driving experience.
Havoc mentioned the main things putting me off getting one, that is the potential for some fairly hefty bills to replace things that have worn out (bushes, dampers, brakes clutch etc) that must be done to make the car feel right. Plus there’s the inconvenience of having what would be my only car in the garage often to get things done, although once everything is sorted it should be good for another 40k or so.
I reckon that the CTR will probably stay over the winter, but come the spring it will be time to change. A fresh imported DC5 should fit the bill and be reliable, I haven’t heard of any problems regarding torque steer in the reviews I’ve read, then again VTEC engines probably don’t generate enough torque to make it a real issue. There’s always the option of an S2000 for some RWD topless fun, or my brother mentioned getting a VX220 turbo instead. Might be wise to get a cheap old Beemer or something for a few months to get used to the RWD first though.
Never realised you could get so moch in a Teg. It's the only thing that's put me off in the past.
I have a wife and kid and only one car, you see, so it has to be able to ferry shopping, travel cot, changing mat, luggage, bucket and spade, picnic blanket, toys, puke wiping kit...the list goes on.
Rest assured if I was single, a Teg would be in my fantasy garage
I have a wife and kid and only one car, you see, so it has to be able to ferry shopping, travel cot, changing mat, luggage, bucket and spade, picnic blanket, toys, puke wiping kit...the list goes on.
Rest assured if I was single, a Teg would be in my fantasy garage
Foggy,
DC5 is based off the same chassis and suspension as the Civic Type-R. And with the same PAS... The driving position and poise are improved, but I'm not convinced it'll be the same as a DC2, and I've read a few reports of others feeling the same way. Plus I've seen dealers wanting £17k for 2001 models, where a good 2000 DC2 would set you back ~ £10-11k. Lot of repairs in that difference!!! Even private they seem to sell for a lot more, probably because of the rarity. Add insurance and repair bills as it's import-only...and the DC2 makes a lot more sense, if you can find a good one.
Craploginname - the boot of the 'teg is pretty big, if a bit shallow. With the back seats down I've fitted in 4 spare wheels with tyres, 4 other tyres with no rims, a large toolbox, trolley-jack, 2 overnight bags and a coolbag. And I could still use the rearview mirror. Plus it's 50/50 split-fold, so if you've 1 kid, you should be able to take the family away in it with little trouble. Just so long as the kid's less than around 5ft-3in, and doesn't mind a bumpy ride!!!
I'm not saying the car's perfect - it can be a pain to drive if you're really not in the mood, and it's wearing on long journeys. But you know that when you buy one, so...
DC5 is based off the same chassis and suspension as the Civic Type-R. And with the same PAS... The driving position and poise are improved, but I'm not convinced it'll be the same as a DC2, and I've read a few reports of others feeling the same way. Plus I've seen dealers wanting £17k for 2001 models, where a good 2000 DC2 would set you back ~ £10-11k. Lot of repairs in that difference!!! Even private they seem to sell for a lot more, probably because of the rarity. Add insurance and repair bills as it's import-only...and the DC2 makes a lot more sense, if you can find a good one.
Craploginname - the boot of the 'teg is pretty big, if a bit shallow. With the back seats down I've fitted in 4 spare wheels with tyres, 4 other tyres with no rims, a large toolbox, trolley-jack, 2 overnight bags and a coolbag. And I could still use the rearview mirror. Plus it's 50/50 split-fold, so if you've 1 kid, you should be able to take the family away in it with little trouble. Just so long as the kid's less than around 5ft-3in, and doesn't mind a bumpy ride!!!
I'm not saying the car's perfect - it can be a pain to drive if you're really not in the mood, and it's wearing on long journeys. But you know that when you buy one, so...
I've only driven a DC2 once, but that was at Palmers Autodrome about 2 years ago. Fantastic car, really raw and focused. Was desperate to get one as a second (or third 
) car for the track, seeing as the scoob was eating through consumables at such an alarming rate. But the insurance really was a stumbling block for me..group 18 isn't it? *shudder*
Still, would rather a DC2 than a CTR...unless it was a JDM CTR with LSD etc...that's a nice compromise
Rgds
C
) car for the track, seeing as the scoob was eating through consumables at such an alarming rate. But the insurance really was a stumbling block for me..group 18 isn't it? *shudder* Still, would rather a DC2 than a CTR...unless it was a JDM CTR with LSD etc...that's a nice compromise
Rgds
C
havoc said:
SaxoStew...if you know someone who thinks the DC5 is a better steer than the DC2, then they're probably on their own.
It's probably a better all-round car, but most reviews (owners as well as journo's) suggest it's not quite as driver focused or as precise as the DC2.
true, i have heard the same thing. but im yet to experience either on road or track so ill reserve judgement till i have done so.
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