Pro Drive or Supercharge my V8
Discussion
More power is on the cards.
Given I don't believe the rating of 380 bhp in the first place (I hope to prove this week that my 997 is faster) should I look for 425bhp (probably nearly 100 up on standard - sorry but that is what I think it probably is) or go for supercharged and 500bhp which is where it really needs to be anyway.
My current limited understanding is about 4/5k for prodrive vs 10k for an Eaton on board.
I don't think I have read a thread where anyone has actually done either to their own car yet - but I haven't been following too closely lately.
Given I don't believe the rating of 380 bhp in the first place (I hope to prove this week that my 997 is faster) should I look for 425bhp (probably nearly 100 up on standard - sorry but that is what I think it probably is) or go for supercharged and 500bhp which is where it really needs to be anyway.
My current limited understanding is about 4/5k for prodrive vs 10k for an Eaton on board.
I don't think I have read a thread where anyone has actually done either to their own car yet - but I haven't been following too closely lately.
Difficult one!
I always feel the problem with Supercharging is the huge hits of torque that the units bring to the party, although this is good for mid-range heft it takes away much of the chassis finesse IMO, rather like the AMG SL55 which relys very heavily on its ESP systems, Merc are now moving back to bigger engine sizes without the supercharger, also the quoted output isn't "real world" as much is used by the supercharger itself! Also what will this do to re-sale value, wreck it IMO?
On the other hand the Prodrive's extra power is pretty much all at the top end of the rev range, it does mean you keep the same sweet chassis balance, but you won't gain much noticeable grunt in the mid-range, although with an even louder exhaust note & more top end verve it certainly brings more fun to the party!
For best re-sale & also to keep the cars character intact I think the Prodrive route is the way to go, but I also think Aston themselves want a slice of this market & I don't think it will be too long before they offer something along the lines of Porsches X-51!
I always feel the problem with Supercharging is the huge hits of torque that the units bring to the party, although this is good for mid-range heft it takes away much of the chassis finesse IMO, rather like the AMG SL55 which relys very heavily on its ESP systems, Merc are now moving back to bigger engine sizes without the supercharger, also the quoted output isn't "real world" as much is used by the supercharger itself! Also what will this do to re-sale value, wreck it IMO?
On the other hand the Prodrive's extra power is pretty much all at the top end of the rev range, it does mean you keep the same sweet chassis balance, but you won't gain much noticeable grunt in the mid-range, although with an even louder exhaust note & more top end verve it certainly brings more fun to the party!
For best re-sale & also to keep the cars character intact I think the Prodrive route is the way to go, but I also think Aston themselves want a slice of this market & I don't think it will be too long before they offer something along the lines of Porsches X-51!
chumley-warner said:
Grant3 said:
I don't think it will be too long before they offer something along the lines of Porsches X-51!
As aftermarket - or just new ones?Maybe some one in the know from the factory will be along shortly?
Grant3 said:
chumley-warner said:
Grant3 said:
I don't think it will be too long before they offer something along the lines of Porsches X-51!
As aftermarket - or just new ones?Maybe some one in the know from the factory will be along shortly?
Prodrive never even told Aston they were releasing the pack and did not work in conjunction with them. So don't be expecting it to be offered by Aston, however, I guess you should always expect the unexpected as well
As for the OP's original question and for no reason other than if I were in the position, that's what I would do, I would go for a supercharger
My lottery day dream has included a Supercharged AMV8 for a while now, so, if only to half bring my dream to life, supercharge it Do it for us dreamers I have been told that the car/chassis will easily take on around 60bhp without complaining.
Edited by :J: on Tuesday 4th September 15:16
:J: said:
Prodrive never even told Aston they were releasing the pack and did not work in conjunction with them. So don't be expecting it to be offered by Aston, however, I guess you should always expect the unexpected as well
That isn't what I was told, Prodrive talks were supposed to have involved Ulrich Bez himself, but Fords testing criteria ruled out a Prodrive "official" Aston approved product due to the costs involved with meeting their requirements. This would have been the equivalent of that applied to a new car in development, so the costs would have been mega bucks!!
In reality no doubt there is more to it than that!
Prodrive offer an aftermarket developed remap onto 98RON fuel and a backbox for £6.5K ....I dont beleive they even have access to the AM ECU (is not officially sanctioned, so they are probably using a piggy back) ...now why on earth do you think that AM would have to go to Prodrive to remap their OWN engine?
Building a production car/engine that passes all the regulatory requirements is 1000x more expensive/time consuming - thats AM's problem...having an aftermarket remap and custom back box you can get anywhere for about £1500
Personally id either find someone to do you a one-off SC conversion, or wait for the factory hotter versions to come next year.
Building a production car/engine that passes all the regulatory requirements is 1000x more expensive/time consuming - thats AM's problem...having an aftermarket remap and custom back box you can get anywhere for about £1500
Personally id either find someone to do you a one-off SC conversion, or wait for the factory hotter versions to come next year.
Grant3 said:
:J: said:
Prodrive never even told Aston they were releasing the pack and did not work in conjunction with them. So don't be expecting it to be offered by Aston, however, I guess you should always expect the unexpected as well
That isn't what I was told, Prodrive talks were supposed to have involved Ulrich Bez himself, but Fords testing criteria ruled out a Prodrive "official" Aston approved product due to the costs involved with meeting their requirements. This would have been the equivalent of that applied to a new car in development, so the costs would have been mega bucks!!
In reality no doubt there is more to it than that!
Good luck with the supercharging thing, it's been tried before on V8V and did not get anywhere!
It's one thing physically bolting on the charger and hardware, getting the engine to run for more than 5 secs afterwards is where the trouble starts!
(excessive airflow = limphome mode, too much MAP = limphome, incorrect throttle plate angle for current MAF = limphome, incorrect throttle angle for vehicle accel = limp home, too much fuel flow = limp home, not sufficient injector headroom = limphome, insufficient delta fuel rail pressure = limphome, getting the picture yet??? lol)
or alternatively, just stick a complete Jag S/C engine and EMS under the hood, then try to get your dash, traction, abs, imobiliser, trip computer, even the dam sat nav and HiFi to work!
Either way pretty much screws up a perfectly good 85 grand car........
(dont get me wrong, its not impossible to do, but the people who do get it to work are gonna want a whole hill of beans in return!)
It's one thing physically bolting on the charger and hardware, getting the engine to run for more than 5 secs afterwards is where the trouble starts!
(excessive airflow = limphome mode, too much MAP = limphome, incorrect throttle plate angle for current MAF = limphome, incorrect throttle angle for vehicle accel = limp home, too much fuel flow = limp home, not sufficient injector headroom = limphome, insufficient delta fuel rail pressure = limphome, getting the picture yet??? lol)
or alternatively, just stick a complete Jag S/C engine and EMS under the hood, then try to get your dash, traction, abs, imobiliser, trip computer, even the dam sat nav and HiFi to work!
Either way pretty much screws up a perfectly good 85 grand car........
(dont get me wrong, its not impossible to do, but the people who do get it to work are gonna want a whole hill of beans in return!)
Car is definitely not at 380bhp. 340-350bhp max (have seen one on a dyno).
Personally I think the Prodrive mod is expensive for what it does. I also wonder if it's a true 425bhp or if it's a projected figure over stock (in which case it isn't).
I'd go supercharging if it could be made to work for sensible wedge.
On the power front, I wonder if there's any come back on a manufacturer whose power outputs are 10% down on quoted...I believe Veyrons are typically over the quoted output as Bugatti were concerned about people not getting the full monty (i.e. being sued by wealthy people no doubt).
Personally I think the Prodrive mod is expensive for what it does. I also wonder if it's a true 425bhp or if it's a projected figure over stock (in which case it isn't).
I'd go supercharging if it could be made to work for sensible wedge.
On the power front, I wonder if there's any come back on a manufacturer whose power outputs are 10% down on quoted...I believe Veyrons are typically over the quoted output as Bugatti were concerned about people not getting the full monty (i.e. being sued by wealthy people no doubt).
Murph7355 said:
Car is definitely not at 380bhp. 340-350bhp max (have seen one on a dyno).
Personally I think the Prodrive mod is expensive for what it does. I also wonder if it's a true 425bhp or if it's a projected figure over stock (in which case it isn't).
I'd go supercharging if it could be made to work for sensible wedge.
On the power front, I wonder if there's any come back on a manufacturer whose power outputs are 10% down on quoted...I believe Veyrons are typically over the quoted output as Bugatti were concerned about people not getting the full monty (i.e. being sued by wealthy people no doubt).
When we tried their developement car some time back Prodrive engineers said that their fig was actual and therefore represented a bigger gain than it appeared since - as you say - they too had found that Astons power claims were somewhat er 'generous'. It does mean that Aston have got to come up with a fair old chunk of bhp for their uprated version to make up the 'shortfall' on the existing car and then show a gain over that. That may be one reason for the rumoured capacity increase to a 4.7L.Personally I think the Prodrive mod is expensive for what it does. I also wonder if it's a true 425bhp or if it's a projected figure over stock (in which case it isn't).
I'd go supercharging if it could be made to work for sensible wedge.
On the power front, I wonder if there's any come back on a manufacturer whose power outputs are 10% down on quoted...I believe Veyrons are typically over the quoted output as Bugatti were concerned about people not getting the full monty (i.e. being sued by wealthy people no doubt).
Pugsey said:
When we tried their developement car some time back Prodrive engineers said that their fig was actual and therefore represented a bigger gain than it appeared since - as you say - they too had found that Astons power claims were somewhat er 'generous'. It does mean that Aston have got to come up with a fair old chunk of bhp for their uprated version to make up the 'shortfall' on the existing car and then show a gain over that. That may be one reason for the rumoured capacity increase to a 4.7L.
In which case 425bhp should hopefully feel pretty rapid - did it Pugsey?how can it be "actual" if it was measured on the prodrive rolling road? ...and Aston have regularly calibrated engine dynos at the Cologne plant (they have to be to comply with ISO regs etc) ...Im not saying its wrong its just that Ive enough experience of aftermarket tuning over the years to never believe the dyno at the place thats trying to sell me the product!
for an aspirated engine thats putting out a genuine 380bhp I would expect to see about 20-30bhp max from exhaust/induction mods and a remap onto 98RON ..so for Prodrive to say they are getting even more than 45bhp from just that smells fishy to me.
Then you consider that AM have to blueprint the engine, port the heads, fit lightend rods/crank/pistons replace the induction system with an ITG set-up, just to get 410bhp on their engine dyno for the N24 and something just dosent add up.
If I was considering such mods, then Id take my car to an independant RR, get it dynoed before and after ...on the basis that if I didnt see +45bhp then Id want my money back or Id post the results on every car internet forum ..that should call their bluff
ps - some of the US owners have had their V8s dyno'd at 375-385bhp - if ever there was a market that would sue the ass off AM if they were really 350bhp its the US - remember the RX8 fiasco?
for an aspirated engine thats putting out a genuine 380bhp I would expect to see about 20-30bhp max from exhaust/induction mods and a remap onto 98RON ..so for Prodrive to say they are getting even more than 45bhp from just that smells fishy to me.
Then you consider that AM have to blueprint the engine, port the heads, fit lightend rods/crank/pistons replace the induction system with an ITG set-up, just to get 410bhp on their engine dyno for the N24 and something just dosent add up.
If I was considering such mods, then Id take my car to an independant RR, get it dynoed before and after ...on the basis that if I didnt see +45bhp then Id want my money back or Id post the results on every car internet forum ..that should call their bluff
ps - some of the US owners have had their V8s dyno'd at 375-385bhp - if ever there was a market that would sue the ass off AM if they were really 350bhp its the US - remember the RX8 fiasco?
bogie said:
Then you consider that AM have to blueprint the engine, port the heads, fit lightend rods/crank/pistons replace the induction system with an ITG set-up, just to get 410bhp on their engine dyno for the N24 and something just dosent add up.
blueprinting engine = 1 or 2 bhpporting heads = 0 bhp and less torque (ports already too big as std, as base engine was originally designed for circa 8krpm peak power and why it struggles to lug along 1600kg at anything less than 5000rpm!)
lightened engine internals, stronger yes, more durable yes, more power, no (unless you go for trick low friction parts)
induction system, already spec'd (2 airboxes & MAF's etc) for a 6.0 V12(db9), total losses are only a few kpa, so even a 50% reduction in loss is maybe 3 bhp (same goes for the exhaust system, only the restrictive cats to get the "dirty" engine through worldwide std are worth changing)
The crucial factor is AM don't increase the stock engine speed limit for there N24 car, hence it never actually gets to peak power rpm in the vehicle. I believe pro drive kit increases rpm limit.
what the engine really needs is a monster set of cams, all steel internals for 8.5krpm, and a 13:1 CR, then theres an easy 520bhp in there! lol (oh an maybe a flat plane crank to get the vol eff up)
The other thing the car really needs is a 4.1 final drive and the diff turned upside down, but the labour charge to do this on an aftermarket basis pretty much kills that idea (new gearbox output shaft required as well as crownwheel)
The problem for AM is that the recent trend is for cars with good low down torque (turbo diesels, large capacity gasoline) and when even a 3series BMW has 500Nm, putting 412Nm into a "supercar" just isnt going to cut it these days, which brings us neatly back to forced induction..............
Of course the other thing to remember is that the sort of people who complain about a lack of power are actually a minority, as AM managed to find approx 7000 worldwide homes for the V8V alone last year, so on that view they have done a pretty damm good job with targeting / marketing and selling the car.
Murph7355 said:
Pugsey said:
When we tried their developement car some time back Prodrive engineers said that their fig was actual and therefore represented a bigger gain than it appeared since - as you say - they too had found that Astons power claims were somewhat er 'generous'. It does mean that Aston have got to come up with a fair old chunk of bhp for their uprated version to make up the 'shortfall' on the existing car and then show a gain over that. That may be one reason for the rumoured capacity increase to a 4.7L.
In which case 425bhp should hopefully feel pretty rapid - did it Pugsey?Pugsey said:
Murph7355 said:
Pugsey said:
When we tried their developement car some time back Prodrive engineers said that their fig was actual and therefore represented a bigger gain than it appeared since - as you say - they too had found that Astons power claims were somewhat er 'generous'. It does mean that Aston have got to come up with a fair old chunk of bhp for their uprated version to make up the 'shortfall' on the existing car and then show a gain over that. That may be one reason for the rumoured capacity increase to a 4.7L.
In which case 425bhp should hopefully feel pretty rapid - did it Pugsey?Id wait for the factory upgraded cars - I hear there will be 2 - a limited run soon just pepped up a bit, then the full fat version in 9-12months - I have a LOI in for the full fat one
bogie said:
Pugsey said:
Murph7355 said:
Pugsey said:
When we tried their developement car some time back Prodrive engineers said that their fig was actual and therefore represented a bigger gain than it appeared since - as you say - they too had found that Astons power claims were somewhat er 'generous'. It does mean that Aston have got to come up with a fair old chunk of bhp for their uprated version to make up the 'shortfall' on the existing car and then show a gain over that. That may be one reason for the rumoured capacity increase to a 4.7L.
In which case 425bhp should hopefully feel pretty rapid - did it Pugsey?Id wait for the factory upgraded cars - I hear there will be 2 - a limited run soon just pepped up a bit, then the full fat version in 9-12months - I have a LOI in for the full fat one
Edited by Pugsey on Thursday 6th September 09:37
Gassing Station | Aston Martin | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff