DSG gearbox on the V8 soon ?
Discussion
www.autoexpress.co.uk/news/autoexpressnews/202857/aston_takes_paddle.html
i update my V8 roadster order now
i update my V8 roadster order now
Be careful. The article mentions clutchless which means a system with hydraulic actuators. The BMW SMGIII system works like this and is very unreliable (I am on my THIRD M5 gearbox!!).
I would be much happier if they had a dual clutch system like the DSG one fitted by Audi. Worth a bit more investigation with the factory before making the leap.
I would be much happier if they had a dual clutch system like the DSG one fitted by Audi. Worth a bit more investigation with the factory before making the leap.
grant3 said:
I think it will be a "Flappy Paddle" job as per the Vanquish rather than a dual clutch DSG job as per Audi, so best steer well clear I think!
There is nothing wrong with the one in the Vanquish if you take the time to learn how to use it, go along to a performance driving course at Millbrook and spend a day driving a Vanquish and you'll grow to love that gearbox.
Edited by siscar on Saturday 23 September 09:39
Don't know for sure if this is happening in the AMV8, but dual-clutch transmissions are about to take off in a bigway and are likely to replace most AMT (automated manual transmissions like in the BMW M5). They will even be finding their way into Fiesta and Focus size cars in the near future. So don't be too surprised if this does happen.
siscar said:
grant3 said:
I think it will be a "Flappy Paddle" job as per the Vanquish rather than a dual clutch DSG job as per Audi, so best steer well clear I think!
There is nothing wrong with the one in the Vanquish if you take the time to learn how to use it, go along to a performance driving course at Millbrook and spend a day driving a Vanquish and you'll grow to love that gearbox.
Edited by siscar on Saturday 23 September 09:39
Well done that man, an educated opinion as opposed to a "but Jeremy Clarkson said....."
Clarkson, the man who insists on using the Vanquish gearbox incorrectly and then whinges about the car 'jerking'.......muppet
Edited by :J: on Saturday 23 September 17:18
Sorry but it isn't just clarkson it is virtually every journalist who has driven these type of cars & under those circumstances you have to take note, also a neighbour of mine who had a Vanquish felt exacltly the same....The flappy paddles are great "sometimes" (usually when you are really going for it & for down changes pre-bend) but totally crap others, like stop start traffic, auto mode, reverse etc. They also eat clutches & you try & do a hill start!!!!!
The bottom line is the DSG dual clutch system will make the flappy paddles obsolete within the next few years!
Until that arrives I'll have mine as a manual please!!!
The bottom line is the DSG dual clutch system will make the flappy paddles obsolete within the next few years!
Until that arrives I'll have mine as a manual please!!!
grant3 said:
Sorry but it isn't just clarkson it is virtually every journalist who has driven these type of cars & under those circumstances you have to take note, also a neighbour of mine who had a Vanquish felt exacltly the same....The flappy paddles are great "sometimes" (usually when you are really going for it & for down changes pre-bend) but totally crap others, like stop start traffic, auto mode, reverse etc. They also eat clutches & you try & do a hill start!!!!!
The bottom line is the DSG dual clutch system will make the flappy paddles obsolete within the next few years!
Until that arrives I'll have mine as a manual please!!!
The bottom line is the DSG dual clutch system will make the flappy paddles obsolete within the next few years!
Until that arrives I'll have mine as a manual please!!!
The problem with the Vanquish gearbox is that you need to learn how to use it. As I said, spend a day at Millbrook with it and you will come away understanding it and loving it, just get into it and drive and you probably won't. Few journalists, including Clarkson, will spend the time learning about it.
I don't understand your comment "the DSG dual clutch system will make the flappy paddles obsolete", the DSG system includes paddles behind the wheel, it is a 'flappy paddle' system. How is a 'flappy paddle' system going to make 'flappy paddles' obsolete?
Sure, the DSG is a nice system in it's way, it's nice because of the dual clutches and the speed of change. But the DB9 and the Vanquish are much better than the VAG DSG cars to drive (yes, obviously they are in a different league, but they leave control in your hands).
I'm fortunate, I drive an Aston Martin every day, I've driven all the current range from Vantage to Vanquish via the DB9, I've done lots of miles in Golfs and a TT with DSG, I've driven a F430 with 'flappies' and a Porsche. The Vanquish is, IMHO, the best of the bunch, that gearbox is awesome. But the DB9 is great as well, you can be in complete control. The VAG system is good, but it is really an auto box, the Vanquish isn't and the DB9 is or isn't depending on how you use it. I'd still select any one of them over the DSG any day.
Siscar, we are each entitled to our opinion & I respect yours, but I can't agree Milbrook is the right test for an F1 gearbox, daily driving is & it simply isn't as good as a manual!
The DB9 doesn't even feature an F1 style shift it is an automatic with torque converter offering manual overide, in the way that Porsche offers Tiptronic. This system (in my opinion) is actually better than than the Vanquish's flappy paddles.
The reason these "F1" systems aren't as good as a manual "overall" is because you are asking computers to shift the clutch & gear change & the technology isn't yet good enough to cover all the situations that a human brain can account for with clutch & manual shift! Of course they are getting better & they can certainly change gear far faster than a human & do great heel & toe downchanges, but the software is still developing, no doubt in a few years time it will be good enough to handle driving around central London better than a manual, but it isn't yet.Ferrari are getting closest to perfecting the system they are a very long way ahead of Aston & I say this as an Aston owner!!!
At this moment the manual gearbox is best for someone who wants a true drivers car & the auto is better if you want a more relaxing smoother drive, the F1 falls between camps!
The reason the new DSG is so superior is it offers the very best of all worlds, by using two clutches it is everything that the F1 style shift isn't, smooth, incredibly fast without being brutal, adaptive, reliable (doesn't eat clutches!!!!!!!)it can be smooth in stop start traffic, do a hill start, easily engage reverse, the simple fact is, it is the next level, the benefits of a relaxing auto & manual control combined, this will make F1 style single clutch automated clutch/gearboxes obsolete...fact!
So in summary I'm not against flappy paddles, it is simply a logical decision of not wanting one until it is superior to a manual or a good auto box, DSG will probably convert me, only time will tell.
Porsche the most profitable car company in the world have the final say, they haven't launched an F1 style gear box sticking with their Tiptronic auto box or a manual,"because we do not believe that the technolgy is currently good enough to apply to our road cars, we will continue with our Tiptronic system until we have a development that is better"....... but within the year you will see them launching their own DSG system, watch this space.
The DB9 doesn't even feature an F1 style shift it is an automatic with torque converter offering manual overide, in the way that Porsche offers Tiptronic. This system (in my opinion) is actually better than than the Vanquish's flappy paddles.
The reason these "F1" systems aren't as good as a manual "overall" is because you are asking computers to shift the clutch & gear change & the technology isn't yet good enough to cover all the situations that a human brain can account for with clutch & manual shift! Of course they are getting better & they can certainly change gear far faster than a human & do great heel & toe downchanges, but the software is still developing, no doubt in a few years time it will be good enough to handle driving around central London better than a manual, but it isn't yet.Ferrari are getting closest to perfecting the system they are a very long way ahead of Aston & I say this as an Aston owner!!!
At this moment the manual gearbox is best for someone who wants a true drivers car & the auto is better if you want a more relaxing smoother drive, the F1 falls between camps!
The reason the new DSG is so superior is it offers the very best of all worlds, by using two clutches it is everything that the F1 style shift isn't, smooth, incredibly fast without being brutal, adaptive, reliable (doesn't eat clutches!!!!!!!)it can be smooth in stop start traffic, do a hill start, easily engage reverse, the simple fact is, it is the next level, the benefits of a relaxing auto & manual control combined, this will make F1 style single clutch automated clutch/gearboxes obsolete...fact!
So in summary I'm not against flappy paddles, it is simply a logical decision of not wanting one until it is superior to a manual or a good auto box, DSG will probably convert me, only time will tell.
Porsche the most profitable car company in the world have the final say, they haven't launched an F1 style gear box sticking with their Tiptronic auto box or a manual,"because we do not believe that the technolgy is currently good enough to apply to our road cars, we will continue with our Tiptronic system until we have a development that is better"....... but within the year you will see them launching their own DSG system, watch this space.
Edited by grant3 on Sunday 24th September 10:36
Grant, I'm not saying that Millbrook is the test for the gearbox but it is a great place and great instruction on how to use it. The thing about the Vanquish box is that it is a manual and you do need instruction on how to use it properly - well I certainly did.
I am a bit confused by what you are saying though, you talk about F1 boxes, flappy paddles, tiptronic and DSG as though they are all different. OK, the approach taken in the Vanquish differs from the DB9 and from the DSG but essentially, from the driver's perspective, these are all boxes with no manual clutch and gearchange paddles behind the steering wheel.
To me there are two factors with them, one is the degree of control you have as a driver and the other is the smootness and speed of it. The Vanquish is great for control but you do need to be taught how to use it and it isn't a 'daily drive' sort of car. I really like the DB9 box because it allows you to drive in almost complete manual mode, it'll only change for you when you really screw up. The DSG is great for smoothness and speed but the VAG system is really an auto box with paddles to allow you to manually override.
A DSG box for smoothness married with an option to switch off all auto changing would be the ideal.
BTW very few car manufacturers other than Ferrari develop their own gearboxes. DSG is a Borg-Warner product, tiptronic comes from ZF, I forget who makes the boxes Aston use but they don't develop them themselves.
I am a bit confused by what you are saying though, you talk about F1 boxes, flappy paddles, tiptronic and DSG as though they are all different. OK, the approach taken in the Vanquish differs from the DB9 and from the DSG but essentially, from the driver's perspective, these are all boxes with no manual clutch and gearchange paddles behind the steering wheel.
To me there are two factors with them, one is the degree of control you have as a driver and the other is the smootness and speed of it. The Vanquish is great for control but you do need to be taught how to use it and it isn't a 'daily drive' sort of car. I really like the DB9 box because it allows you to drive in almost complete manual mode, it'll only change for you when you really screw up. The DSG is great for smoothness and speed but the VAG system is really an auto box with paddles to allow you to manually override.
A DSG box for smoothness married with an option to switch off all auto changing would be the ideal.
BTW very few car manufacturers other than Ferrari develop their own gearboxes. DSG is a Borg-Warner product, tiptronic comes from ZF, I forget who makes the boxes Aston use but they don't develop them themselves.
Afternoon Siscar, apologies if I wasn't being clear, I know all gearboxes change gear ratio, but I still see them in different categories, simply because they all perform differently in the real world of driving, for example journalists loved the DB9s auto box, but hated the Vanquishes automated manual (read flappy paddles!!!) roughly like..
Manual.
Auto:with torque converter(used in the DB9)some offering tiptronic overide to better control the car!
Clutchless manual.: use a gear stick but no clutch..alla Selespeed, Saab sensonic etc
Automated manual(flappy paddles!): like Ferraris F1, BMW's SMG, Astons Vanquish system
Dual clutch automated manual.: The latest development using two clutches with pre-selected gears.
CVT: continuously variable transmission.....yuk!!!
If you prefer the clutchless/automated manual systems, I can't argue with that each to their own, but they are relatively new mass production products (compared to traditional autos & manual, both of which have been well honed) as such I (& the majority of the press) feel they aren't yet as good as a manual "overall" for driver control, stop start driving & manouvering! The DSG is the very latest development & appears to get over the inherant problems in the previous single clutch systems offering "potentially" the best of both worlds.
Manual.
Auto:with torque converter(used in the DB9)some offering tiptronic overide to better control the car!
Clutchless manual.: use a gear stick but no clutch..alla Selespeed, Saab sensonic etc
Automated manual(flappy paddles!): like Ferraris F1, BMW's SMG, Astons Vanquish system
Dual clutch automated manual.: The latest development using two clutches with pre-selected gears.
CVT: continuously variable transmission.....yuk!!!
If you prefer the clutchless/automated manual systems, I can't argue with that each to their own, but they are relatively new mass production products (compared to traditional autos & manual, both of which have been well honed) as such I (& the majority of the press) feel they aren't yet as good as a manual "overall" for driver control, stop start driving & manouvering! The DSG is the very latest development & appears to get over the inherant problems in the previous single clutch systems offering "potentially" the best of both worlds.
Edited by grant3 on Sunday 24th September 15:17
grant3 said:
Sorry but it isn't just clarkson it is virtually every journalist who has driven these type of cars & under those circumstances you have to take note, also a neighbour of mine who had a Vanquish felt exacltly the same....The flappy paddles are great "sometimes" (usually when you are really going for it & for down changes pre-bend) but totally crap others, like stop start traffic, auto mode, reverse etc. They also eat clutches & you try & do a hill start!!!!!
The bottom line is the DSG dual clutch system will make the flappy paddles obsolete within the next few years!
Until that arrives I'll have mine as a manual please!!!
The bottom line is the DSG dual clutch system will make the flappy paddles obsolete within the next few years!
Until that arrives I'll have mine as a manual please!!!
Siscar has been taught to use the gearbox properly, I have been taught how to use the gearbox properly, neither of us have experienced the problems you say occur. I have tried may hill starts in a Vanquish, each one was the same as doing in my car, i.e. a doddle. Stop/start in traffic, never had a problem either.
But if your neighbour says so.......
Agree or disagree, I think personal experience is needed to put a valid arguement together.
:J: said:
Siscar has been taught to use the gearbox properly, I have been taught how to use the gearbox properly, neither of us have experienced the problems you say occur. I have tried may hill starts in a Vanquish, each one was the same as doing in my car, i.e. a doddle. Stop/start in traffic, never had a problem either.
But if your neighbour says so.......
Agree or disagree, I think personal experience is needed to put a valid arguement together.
But if your neighbour says so.......
Agree or disagree, I think personal experience is needed to put a valid arguement together.
Fair point J, I haven't driven the Vanquish myself (although I could have claimed to
), but have tried a 360 & Gallardo with flappy paddles! I also think my neighbours opinion is very valid , unlike Siscar or yourself he didn't just go for a test drive, or a track day, he drove it every day for a year & sold the car only because he hated the gearbox (several clutches later,the smell if you tried a hill start was!!!) he said "why oh why couldn't I have specified a manual or normal auto box that work properly." There is no doubt the software/hardware for automated manuals are getting better, but as I said earlier it isn't just the motoring press that feel they still aren't yet right it is also very successful companies like Porsche. Of course now the DSG is here (a sort of flappy paddles 2)it will at last work properly, so we can all agree!!! Incidentally I am an Aston Martin fan, currently loving my manual AMV8, so I'm not knocking Aston specifically, just a new technology that isn't quite 100% yet!
Edited by grant3 on Monday 25th September 14:15
Ferrari paddle shifts are designed to let you keep your foot to the board whilst upshifting IIRC, the Vanquish one is not, hence the jolt when changing gear with this method, hence people like Clarkson, et al that do not know how to use it properly, moan about it !!
As for the driving, it was a jaunt across europe, round Spa all day, about 100 laps(ish)in all and then all the way home, not even a grumble from the gearbox or clutch. On top of that, I have done Millbrook, lots of local driving and a track day or 2, again, no problems.
Sounds like your neighbour could have benefited from the PDC at Milbrook or there is every chance he got a preverbial lemon
Anyway, tell your neighbour to get his Vanquish back as he can now send it in to have a manual gearbox fitted
As for the driving, it was a jaunt across europe, round Spa all day, about 100 laps(ish)in all and then all the way home, not even a grumble from the gearbox or clutch. On top of that, I have done Millbrook, lots of local driving and a track day or 2, again, no problems.
Sounds like your neighbour could have benefited from the PDC at Milbrook or there is every chance he got a preverbial lemon
Anyway, tell your neighbour to get his Vanquish back as he can now send it in to have a manual gearbox fitted
Edited by :J: on Monday 25th September 15:04
:J: said:
Ferrari paddle shifts are designed to let you keep your foot to the board whilst upshifting IIRC, the Vanquish one is not, hence the jolt when changing gear with this method, hence people like Clarkson, et al that do not know how to use it properly, moan about it !!
As for the driving, it was a jaunt across europe, round Spa all day, about 100 laps(ish)in all and then all the way home, not even a grumble from the gearbox or clutch. On top of that, I have done Millbrook, lots of local driving and a track day or 2, again, no problems.
Sounds like your neighbour could have benefited from the PDC at Milbrook or there is every chance he got a preverbial lemon
Anyway, tell your neighbour to get his Vanquish back as he can now send it in to have a manual gearbox fitted
As for the driving, it was a jaunt across europe, round Spa all day, about 100 laps(ish)in all and then all the way home, not even a grumble from the gearbox or clutch. On top of that, I have done Millbrook, lots of local driving and a track day or 2, again, no problems.
Sounds like your neighbour could have benefited from the PDC at Milbrook or there is every chance he got a preverbial lemon
Anyway, tell your neighbour to get his Vanquish back as he can now send it in to have a manual gearbox fitted
Edited by :J: on Monday 25th September 15:04
eh ? manual vanquish ?
:J: said:
Ferrari paddle shifts are designed to let you keep your foot to the board whilst upshifting IIRC, the Vanquish one is not, hence the jolt when changing gear with this method, hence people like Clarkson, et al that do not know how to use it properly, moan about it !!
As for the driving, it was a jaunt across europe, round Spa all day, about 100 laps(ish)in all and then all the way home, not even a grumble from the gearbox or clutch. On top of that, I have done Millbrook, lots of local driving and a track day or 2, again, no problems.
Sounds like your neighbour could have benefited from the PDC at Milbrook or there is every chance he got a preverbial lemon
Anyway, tell your neighbour to get his Vanquish back as he can now send it in to have a manual gearbox fitted
As for the driving, it was a jaunt across europe, round Spa all day, about 100 laps(ish)in all and then all the way home, not even a grumble from the gearbox or clutch. On top of that, I have done Millbrook, lots of local driving and a track day or 2, again, no problems.
Sounds like your neighbour could have benefited from the PDC at Milbrook or there is every chance he got a preverbial lemon
Anyway, tell your neighbour to get his Vanquish back as he can now send it in to have a manual gearbox fitted
Edited by :J: on Monday 25th September 15:04
Blimey your dad is generous with his Vanquish! Anyway you can only take as you find & if you rate the gearbox after that length of drive it must have been a good one! I respect your opinion but my neighbours situation simply highlights the inconsistancy of this style of gearbox, if you read Autocars best handling test in this weeks issue you will see that the Gallardo featured was let down by it's very poor flappy paddles quote "it was so bad it rather spoilt the whole experience. The software seemed obsessed with unleashing great shrieks of throttle during downshifts to please the crowds but rarely did it actually smooth the shift itself"
So as Siscar said we will have to agree to disagree, you may be willing to buy a car featuring this technology (although you currently drive a manual), but there is just too much evidence (person & journalist) out there against it for me to, until Porsche bring out their version of the DSG & then I think it will probably be the gearshift of choice!
Incidentally, since when has there been a manual Vanquish?
grant3 said:
Changing subject, how are you enjoying your AMV8?
Yes thanks, just doing far too many miles in it - 11,500 since April isn't good (well it has been but you know what I mean).
The V8 is what the Vanquish isn't, an everyday car, but I've got a DB9 on order, I think that will be my ideal car (for now anyway).
On the Vanquish gearbox, you really do have to be trained to use it. It means that the relevance of the opinions of those who haven't been trained is very limited whilst also recognising that the need to be trained is a deficiency in itself.
siscar said:
grant3 said:
Changing subject, how are you enjoying your AMV8?
Yes thanks, just doing far too many miles in it - 11,500 since April isn't good (well it has been but you know what I mean).
The V8 is what the Vanquish isn't, an everyday car, but I've got a DB9 on order, I think that will be my ideal car (for now anyway).
On the Vanquish gearbox, you really do have to be trained to use it. It means that the relevance of the opinions of those who haven't been trained is very limited whilst also recognising that the need to be trained is a deficiency in itself.
Blimey 11.5k since April, 2k a month, has the car stood up ok? I must confess to being sceptical when I changed from 996TT to AMV8, but I think the car is fabulous, so far 2nd gear & rear rattle aside mine has been spot on & a great drivers car to boot! I would like to put more miles on it, just for the pleasure of driving, but mine is more like 5k a year!
With the DB9 have you gone the sports route with the sports pack & manual (autocar were raving about this, see the best handling video on their website) or GT spec with an auto box?
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