Vew shape Vantage backbox issue/Timeless query?
Discussion
Hi chaps, my 2018 Vantage has developed the "reduced engine performance, consult workshop" warning recently. I took it to my local AM dealer who advised that the rear backbox has a faulty valve and a new box is therefore required. Lucky me at only £1600 and by the way it is not covered under the Timeless warranty apparently. To put it into perspective, I paid circa 80K six months ago for the car and have done 650 miles in it through the winter. The dealer sales manager has offered to meet half the cost at £800 but I have been left with a bad taste about it. To be fair to the dealer, they showed me the faulty flap/bush whilst it was stripped on the ramp and I can see it has a resistance to opening. The story develops however and they fitted a new replacement back box and that immediately developed the same issue whilst on the ramp! I now have a second replacement on order. My question is, is this a one /two off issue or common. Do you think it is acceptable that I am expected to stump up for the half replacement cost on a part that is not a consumable and as a layman I have not chance of checking prior to purchase. Any pointers gratefully received.
Unless I misunderstand both your post and some aspects of the latest Vantage exhaust, I cannot understand how a stuck valve on the backbox would give you any engine warning lights - AFAIK the valves operate just to divert gases to make the exhaust note louder/quieter and the engine wouldn't give two figs whether they were open, closed or jammed. It's also one of the definitions of madness to do the same thing over and over and expect a different result - but I'll be delighted if I'm wrong.
My first thoughts on advice? Find another dealer who can competently investigate the issue by hooking the car up to the Aston Martin diagnostic system.
My second thought? if you have a fault causing a "reduced engine performance warning" then the Timeless warranty should cover it.
My first thoughts on advice? Find another dealer who can competently investigate the issue by hooking the car up to the Aston Martin diagnostic system.
My second thought? if you have a fault causing a "reduced engine performance warning" then the Timeless warranty should cover it.
LTP said:
Unless I misunderstand both your post and some aspects of the latest Vantage exhaust, I cannot understand how a stuck valve on the backbox would give you any engine warning lights - AFAIK the valves operate just to divert gases to make the exhaust note louder/quieter and the engine wouldn't give two figs whether they were open, closed or jammed. It's also one of the definitions of madness to do the same thing over and over and expect a different result - but I'll be delighted if I'm wrong.
My first thoughts on advice? Find another dealer who can competently investigate the issue by hooking the car up to the Aston Martin diagnostic system.
My second thought? if you have a fault causing a "reduced engine performance warning" then the Timeless warranty should cover it.
It appears that they are controlled electronically hence throwing up the error code.My first thoughts on advice? Find another dealer who can competently investigate the issue by hooking the car up to the Aston Martin diagnostic system.
My second thought? if you have a fault causing a "reduced engine performance warning" then the Timeless warranty should cover it.
Rapid rental said:
It appears that they are controlled electronically hence throwing up the error code.
Again, I'm willing to be proven wrong, but the valves on the old VH Vantage (which your profile says you've also owned) are also controlled "electronically" via (I believe) the engine ECU, but the valves themselves are completely dumb; the ECU asks the valves to open (or close, depending on what conditions of revs and other values it sees), but the ECU gets no feedback and has no idea if the valves actually did its bidding. This is why you can pull the valve fuses on most VH models with no codes or consequences.I'd be surprised if the new Vantage system is significantly different, but I understand that it's now being controlled by MB technology
They work via a vacuum pump controlled via the ECU.
You can just replace the valve see:-
https://www.davidapplebyengineering.com/Shop/Produ...
You can just replace the valve see:-
https://www.davidapplebyengineering.com/Shop/Produ...
Rapid rental said:
Hi chaps, my 2018 Vantage has developed the "reduced engine performance, consult workshop" warning recently. I took it to my local AM dealer who advised that the rear backbox has a faulty valve and a new box is therefore required. Lucky me at only £1600 and by the way it is not covered under the Timeless warranty apparently. ...
Main dealers have very expensive glass, travertine tiles and 'free' coffee to pay for.
They find replacing parts is far easier and also more profitable, than using an engineering repair approach.
Edited by Jon39 on Monday 18th March 17:42
Jon39 said:
Main dealers have very expensive glass, travertine tiles and 'free' coffee to pay for.
They find replacing parts is far easier and also more profitable, than using an engineering repair approach.
Come on Jon, don't be ridiculous. Main dealers can only fit approved AML parts, and the spares for any car are decided by a combination of the Service and Engineering divisions. I don't think you'd find any OEM agreeing to cut out and weld parts in an exhaust system. Plus who is responsible if it isn't done correctly and how would the OEM know and warrant that the repaired parts met the original specifications?They find replacing parts is far easier and also more profitable, than using an engineering repair approach.
Sure, you want to go into the aftermarket, away from any warranted or approved repair route then welding new valves in is cheaper and appropriate. But, as usual, you're not interested in facts and are just trying to make a point
edited to add
Plus it's not yet established that the valves are a problem
Edited by LTP on Monday 18th March 19:04
Rapid rental said:
Hi chaps, my 2018 Vantage has developed the "reduced engine performance, consult workshop" warning recently. I took it to my local AM dealer who advised that the rear backbox has a faulty valve and a new box is therefore required. Lucky me at only £1600 and by the way it is not covered under the Timeless warranty apparently. ....... Any pointers gratefully received.
I'm curious which dealer this is. My 2019 Vantage had the same issue, although I never saw the error codes. The dealer noted the error code when the car was in for a minor cosmetic repair about 3 months after I bought it. They replaced the entire rear section of the exhaust under timeless warranty. They wouldn't give me an invoice for the repair due to it being a warranty claim. But they did agree to give me a statement as evidence the repair had been carried out. So I have a dealer "invoice without prices" to show the claim. Description on the invoice says "Engine warning lamp on dash requires new back box due to valve seized."My brother and I both had the same issue on our 2019 Vantages, both had backboxes replaced but they were under original factory 3 year warranty at the time. We also got EML light/limp mode, the dealer explained it as the ECU seeing an erroneous value so panicking and putting into limp mode. I get the feeling this is quite a common problem, however usually aftermarket warranties (even manufacturer backed ones) will always exclude the entire exhaust system.
I'm hoping the newer backboxes are updated so we don't have the same fault again!
I'm hoping the newer backboxes are updated so we don't have the same fault again!
I've been puzzling over this issue as it seemed counter-intuitive to me (hence my earlier posts in this thread)
I finally think I've gotten to the root of the problem, on the 2C cars the exhaust valves are not operated by vacuum and an actuator, but by an electric actuator that does have a feedback capability to detect the position of the valves
I found a US aftermarket website that says:
"The AM6xx Vantage (2018+) has exhaust valve actuators that cycle the butterfly valves (flappers) through their range of motion on startup. If they do not find the correct range of motion, the car goes into reduced power mode. The factory muffler’s butterfly valves are notorious for becoming seized over time. Since they’re built into the muffler, it requires complete muffler replacement."
And they offer a fix - a sort of CCharger for the 2C generation
https://www.jxbperformance.com/products/p/aston-ma...
What they don't say is whether the valves on the 2C exhaust system are mechanically the same as on the VH cars so the DAE valves would fit - I doubt it because of the different actuation system - but I'm willing to be proven wrong.
I've taken a screengrab off their website so those interested can see the new actuators
and their relevant website page:
I finally think I've gotten to the root of the problem, on the 2C cars the exhaust valves are not operated by vacuum and an actuator, but by an electric actuator that does have a feedback capability to detect the position of the valves
I found a US aftermarket website that says:
"The AM6xx Vantage (2018+) has exhaust valve actuators that cycle the butterfly valves (flappers) through their range of motion on startup. If they do not find the correct range of motion, the car goes into reduced power mode. The factory muffler’s butterfly valves are notorious for becoming seized over time. Since they’re built into the muffler, it requires complete muffler replacement."
And they offer a fix - a sort of CCharger for the 2C generation
https://www.jxbperformance.com/products/p/aston-ma...
What they don't say is whether the valves on the 2C exhaust system are mechanically the same as on the VH cars so the DAE valves would fit - I doubt it because of the different actuation system - but I'm willing to be proven wrong.
I've taken a screengrab off their website so those interested can see the new actuators
and their relevant website page:
angusfaldo said:
I'm curious which dealer this is. My 2019 Vantage had the same issue, although I never saw the error codes. The dealer noted the error code when the car was in for a minor cosmetic repair about 3 months after I bought it. They replaced the entire rear section of the exhaust under timeless warranty. They wouldn't give me an invoice for the repair due to it being a warranty claim. But they did agree to give me a statement as evidence the repair had been carried out. So I have a dealer "invoice without prices" to show the claim. Description on the invoice says "Engine warning lamp on dash requires new back box due to valve seized."
If you pm me I will share the dealer details, I would certainly love to know who your dealer was that did it under the Timeless warranty, that could be super helpful to me in negotiations?
AMV93 said:
My brother and I both had the same issue on our 2019 Vantages, both had backboxes replaced but they were under original factory 3 year warranty at the time. We also got EML light/limp mode, the dealer explained it as the ECU seeing an erroneous value so panicking and putting into limp mode. I get the feeling this is quite a common problem, however usually aftermarket warranties (even manufacturer backed ones) will always exclude the entire exhaust system.
I'm hoping the newer backboxes are updated so we don't have the same fault again!
The brand new replacement failed on th ramp whilst being fitted at the dealer, hardly inspiring I thought.I'm hoping the newer backboxes are updated so we don't have the same fault again!
Rapid rental said:
The brand new replacement failed on th ramp whilst being fitted at the dealer, hardly inspiring I thought.
Doesn't sound good. Idle curiosity. Do you know if the new backbox came with new electrical actuators? Or did they bolt the old actuators onto the new backbox?
Gents,
A little insight on these exhaust flaps. For some years now, the OLD style exhaust flaps that simply worked on vacuum is no longer used. These newer style flaps use a much more sophisticated system. The vacuum system is replaced by a step motor. The ECU (ECM) has program controls built into the firmware and the flaps can be opened by varying percentages according to several environmental factors including RPM, ECT, ETP, selected drive mode, and more. Tuners who have access to the firmware data tables can see these controls and manipulate them.
Back to the original issue. When the ECU commands the step motors to be in a certain position, but the electronic feedback says the step motor did not move, then a fault code is set. The most common fault and is the case here, is that some form of rust or corrosion has taken over and not allowing the step motor(s) to move to the appropriate position. If the ECU is expecting full open (100%) yet the valves remain fully closed, this can set a reduced performance CEL. In just about every case I've seen, the flaps themselves are so integral to the exhaust that they are not serviceable without replacing the entire muffler assembly. BTW, very common in the Mercedes AMG models.
As a tuner I have access to these tables on some other model cars (not AM). These data tables are representative of how engine management systems control the flaps. The images should be mostly self explanatory.
Some of the typical codes produced:
A little insight on these exhaust flaps. For some years now, the OLD style exhaust flaps that simply worked on vacuum is no longer used. These newer style flaps use a much more sophisticated system. The vacuum system is replaced by a step motor. The ECU (ECM) has program controls built into the firmware and the flaps can be opened by varying percentages according to several environmental factors including RPM, ECT, ETP, selected drive mode, and more. Tuners who have access to the firmware data tables can see these controls and manipulate them.
Back to the original issue. When the ECU commands the step motors to be in a certain position, but the electronic feedback says the step motor did not move, then a fault code is set. The most common fault and is the case here, is that some form of rust or corrosion has taken over and not allowing the step motor(s) to move to the appropriate position. If the ECU is expecting full open (100%) yet the valves remain fully closed, this can set a reduced performance CEL. In just about every case I've seen, the flaps themselves are so integral to the exhaust that they are not serviceable without replacing the entire muffler assembly. BTW, very common in the Mercedes AMG models.
As a tuner I have access to these tables on some other model cars (not AM). These data tables are representative of how engine management systems control the flaps. The images should be mostly self explanatory.
Some of the typical codes produced:
Gassing Station | Aston Martin | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff