The Dreaded DB9 Engine Tick!
Discussion
I was hoping I would never post this but unfortunately my 2004 DB9 has developed the dreaded DB9 tick.
I wasn’t even driving it, I ran the engine only on idle for around 45 mins whilst getting the transmission fluid upto temperature to do the final level check in January after a ZF gearbox service, that job went very well….and all of a sudden I heard a ticking sound from the engine, I’ve never heard the dreaded ticking sound in real life, but I was under the car at the time just checking for any gearbox leaks (which there wasn’t) and just heard this quite loud tick.
I was just in shock, got my phone to video it, after that I switched the engine off and watched a few videos on the ticking sound to make sure it was the tick!! Which it was....... A few days later I ran the car again only on idle and sure enough after around 45mins of running the tick started again!!
Absolutely f
king gutted is a complete understatement, I’d really hate to sell her, being able to purchase the car in the first place in 2019 was an absolute huge achievement.
In my 20’s I removed/installed loads of engines, I really enjoy working on cars and I’ve enjoyed working on my DB9 for the 5 years of ownership, I’ve removed the rear subframe, replaced the radiator, (quite a difficult job) and loads of other stuff, the car is in very good condition not needing anything doing, apart from this now, so thinking I could keep the cost down maybe I could remove the engine in my garage at home, A really huge job I know!!
I honestly I feel so bloody crap at the mo. I’ve had a few hiccups recently with the car which I’ve sorted out and was looking forward to enjoying her again this year when the weather warms up.
So who here has had the same problem, what age is your car, mileage and what did you do to repair it and cost?
Thanks for reading.
I wasn’t even driving it, I ran the engine only on idle for around 45 mins whilst getting the transmission fluid upto temperature to do the final level check in January after a ZF gearbox service, that job went very well….and all of a sudden I heard a ticking sound from the engine, I’ve never heard the dreaded ticking sound in real life, but I was under the car at the time just checking for any gearbox leaks (which there wasn’t) and just heard this quite loud tick.
I was just in shock, got my phone to video it, after that I switched the engine off and watched a few videos on the ticking sound to make sure it was the tick!! Which it was....... A few days later I ran the car again only on idle and sure enough after around 45mins of running the tick started again!!
Absolutely f
king gutted is a complete understatement, I’d really hate to sell her, being able to purchase the car in the first place in 2019 was an absolute huge achievement.In my 20’s I removed/installed loads of engines, I really enjoy working on cars and I’ve enjoyed working on my DB9 for the 5 years of ownership, I’ve removed the rear subframe, replaced the radiator, (quite a difficult job) and loads of other stuff, the car is in very good condition not needing anything doing, apart from this now, so thinking I could keep the cost down maybe I could remove the engine in my garage at home, A really huge job I know!!
I honestly I feel so bloody crap at the mo. I’ve had a few hiccups recently with the car which I’ve sorted out and was looking forward to enjoying her again this year when the weather warms up.
So who here has had the same problem, what age is your car, mileage and what did you do to repair it and cost?
Thanks for reading.
Edited by paulrog1 on Thursday 8th February 21:26
paulrog1 said:
I was hoping I would never post this but unfortunately my 2004 DB9 has developed the dreaded DB9 tick.
Absolutely fking gutted is a complete understatement, I’d really hate to sell her, being able to purchase the car in the first place in 2019 was an absolute huge achievement.
In my 20’s I removed/installed loads of engines, I really enjoy working on cars and I’ve enjoyed working on my DB9 for the 5 years of ownership, I’ve removed the rear subframe, replaced the radiator, (quite a difficult job) and loads of other stuff, the car is in very good condition not needing anything doing, apart from this now, so thinking I could keep the cost down maybe I could remove the engine in my garage at home, A really huge job I know!!
So who here has had the same problem, what age is your car, mileage and what did you do to repair it and cost?
Really sorry to hear this Paul.Absolutely f
king gutted is a complete understatement, I’d really hate to sell her, being able to purchase the car in the first place in 2019 was an absolute huge achievement.In my 20’s I removed/installed loads of engines, I really enjoy working on cars and I’ve enjoyed working on my DB9 for the 5 years of ownership, I’ve removed the rear subframe, replaced the radiator, (quite a difficult job) and loads of other stuff, the car is in very good condition not needing anything doing, apart from this now, so thinking I could keep the cost down maybe I could remove the engine in my garage at home, A really huge job I know!!
So who here has had the same problem, what age is your car, mileage and what did you do to repair it and cost?
As you probably know, I suffered catastrophic engine failure in my Vantage S in 2022. So, not a V12 and not the same problem but I have experience of an AML engine failure with a solution that starts to approach the value of the car, so I understand how you feel.
I was not in a position to do any of the work myself and BR have built and installed a fantastic "new" engine to my Vantage and all is well now. However, I can confirm that if you remove and re-install the engine yourself you could save yourself a large chunk of cash. I'm not going to publish my invoice breakdown on here but if you want more details then PM me.
Out of interest, how many miles has your engine done?
Hope you get it sorted in a way that works for you.
If you're planning to do this in your garage at home, you might take inspiration from this video series: https://www.youtube.com/@GB9Garage/videos
As the protagonist says in the first instalment, it's not a "how to", but it does give a good idea of what lies ahead.
As the protagonist says in the first instalment, it's not a "how to", but it does give a good idea of what lies ahead.
Very sorry to hear of this. I’d ask Mike at BR for some frank advice on how long you have as one option could be to ignore it and just enjoy the car until the engine really fails, which might be some time. However, with that hanging over your head you may not enjoy the time you have so much.
The series of videos produced by the chap in USA as referenced by yvr will certianly give you an idea of what’s involved, plus the time, space, tools and parts you will need to drop the engine. Like you I’ve swapped out a few engines in my time in a garage but even with all the online help in the world, I’m not sure I’d want to take that job on without specialist equipment. Of course once the engine is out, it still has to be rebuilt or swapped and reinstalled.
Other options? - well, it depends on finances and flexibility. If the ultimate goal is to get back into a healthy DB9, and it doesn’t necessarily have to be the same one you have now..
If you have space and time, you can break the car and sell the parts over time using platforms like ebay. You would get back a large amount of money, maybe all your outlay, but it would take years. The market for AM parts is small.
You can sell the car ‘as is’ for about 50-60% of its value if you are completely honest. It would likely be bought by some individual or business who would do the above. Putting the proceeds to a replacement would probably overall be cheaper than paying to have your engine fixed. Then of course you would have the concern it could happen again.
Best of luck.
The series of videos produced by the chap in USA as referenced by yvr will certianly give you an idea of what’s involved, plus the time, space, tools and parts you will need to drop the engine. Like you I’ve swapped out a few engines in my time in a garage but even with all the online help in the world, I’m not sure I’d want to take that job on without specialist equipment. Of course once the engine is out, it still has to be rebuilt or swapped and reinstalled.
Other options? - well, it depends on finances and flexibility. If the ultimate goal is to get back into a healthy DB9, and it doesn’t necessarily have to be the same one you have now..
If you have space and time, you can break the car and sell the parts over time using platforms like ebay. You would get back a large amount of money, maybe all your outlay, but it would take years. The market for AM parts is small.
You can sell the car ‘as is’ for about 50-60% of its value if you are completely honest. It would likely be bought by some individual or business who would do the above. Putting the proceeds to a replacement would probably overall be cheaper than paying to have your engine fixed. Then of course you would have the concern it could happen again.
Best of luck.
Edited by Calinours on Friday 9th February 10:39
paulrog1 said:
I was hoping I would never post this, but unfortunately my 2004 DB9 has developed the dreaded DB9 tick. - -
So sorry to hear about your problem.
I read your first line to my wife. She responded with woman's logic, "Why didn't they build the engine properly in the beginning ?"
An engine strip and rebuild is probably now your only solution.
I cannot remember exactly, but think this fault might be due to a weak oil feed to particular cylinders, then piston small ends or pistons are not sufficiently lubricated, so wear occurs.
Years ago on here, there was a very enthusuastic DB9 owner who faced the 'tick'. He set about stripping his engine, almost on the kitchen table. At that time, the 'tick' had rarely been mentioned and not much was known, so I think he replaced some parts which were not the cause of the trouble. Not to be deterred though, he set about doing the job himself a second time. Between each attempt, he boldly drove his car to Norway!
Some Aston Martins have now reached relatively low prices. Wonder if a DB9 could be purchased, for about the cost of an engine rebuild. Just a thought about how to get a good engine.
Wishing you better luck.
Following on from Dewi 2`s message and if you do look for a second hand car for its engine then there are a few AM`s at Copart in the UK, one of them might suit your needs, see here:
https://www.copart.co.uk/vehicle-search-make/salva...
https://www.copart.co.uk/vehicle-search-make/salva...
paulrog1 said:
I was hoping I would never post this but unfortunately my 2004 DB9 has developed the dreaded DB9 tick.
I can't help but can only offer you sympathy. I guess your course of action will depend on whether you regard it as a car or as a hand-made piece of automotive art (and the depth of your pockets)I can relate.
I bought a 2005 DB9 with 16k on the clock and I first noticed the tick about 10 minutes after the deal was done. I initially assumed it was something relatively minor – a stuck lifter perhaps, or an exhaust leak. I didn't have to do much research before reality reared its ugly head.
The tick is either piston slap, play in the little ends, or a combination of both. The direct cause is cylinders wearing oval, but the REASON for the cylinders wearing oval has mostly gone unexplained. I read something recently that said the cylinder liners are basically unsecured and can ‘walk’ down their bores just enough to allow gas to get past the head gasket. The gasket doesn’t blow in the conventional sense, but the area between the cylinder and the block gets pressurized just enough to distort the liner. While that sounds odd and even a little far-fetched, it’s the best explanation I’ve heard by virtue of being the *only* explanation I’ve heard.
I decided there were three basic options:
One, try to live with it. By most accounts the tick takes a long time to get worse and doesn’t lead to catastrophic failure. I'm far too compulsive to be able to ignore the tick. At best, it buys you some time to choose between the other two options.
Two, sell the car. The tick was un-hidable and I’m not a good liar, so I would have had to sell with full disclosure at a huge loss. Also, Aston ownership had been a lifelong dream, and I had made sacrifices to own it that I probably couldn't make again. If I got rid of it, then the dream was dead. Of course, it's human nature to cling to a mistake you're so deeply invested in making.
Three, rebuild or replace the engine. As of five years ago, a factory exchange engine fitted by a dealer was quoted around $38k(!). Used engines averaged maybe a third of that, but they could just as easily have the tick, or some other issue - not worth the risk, IMO. That left rebuilding. I got an estimate from Bamford Rose and their US partner for around $20k. I was reluctant to go that route for two reasons: One, it was never proven to me that the fix was truly permanent, because they didn't know the underlying cause and they didn't seem too worried about finding out. That bothered me. Mike didn't explicitly say "if you can't throw 20 grand at your Aston now and then, you have no business owning one," but he might as well have. To my mind, a rebuilt engine was almost as prone to developing the tick as the original one. I also had a very hard time spending that kind of money on a car I wasn't sure I was ever going to like. I asked myself, if the car didn't tick, would I like it? I didn't know then. I don't know now. I certainly had plenty of other complaints.
I was completely paralyzed. I couldn't live with it, I didn't want to take a massive loss, and I didn't want to dump huge amounts of cash into a fix I wasn't sure would restore my trust. I spent at least 4 of the 4.5 years I owned it wondering what to do. In the end, I was approached by a friend of my father's who wanted to buy the car despite full knowledge of the tick. I sold it for $14k less than I paid, which from a financial standpoint was probably the best result I could have hoped for. By then I was so bitter that there was no hope of ever enjoying the car, but even so it was still hard to let go somehow.
Your attitude toward your car seems more positive than mine ever was, so I assume you're already leaning towards fixing it. The biggest piece of advice I will offer is this: Be decisive. Either dump it or fix it before the tick gets too far under your skin.
I would also advise against a used engine if you're going to keep the car. 20 years later, early DB9 engines are still developing the tick, and I have to think most of them eventually will. I'd hate to invest all that time and money just to trade one time bomb for another.
Removing the engine yourself is a big job to say the least, but it could save you quite a bit of money as the labor to remove and replace the engine is a big part of the cost. The official procedure is to lift the body off of the front and rear subframes, but it is apparently possible to partially dismantle the front of the car and lift the engine up and out. You'll probably need at least two cars' worth of space either way.
Good luck.
I bought a 2005 DB9 with 16k on the clock and I first noticed the tick about 10 minutes after the deal was done. I initially assumed it was something relatively minor – a stuck lifter perhaps, or an exhaust leak. I didn't have to do much research before reality reared its ugly head.
The tick is either piston slap, play in the little ends, or a combination of both. The direct cause is cylinders wearing oval, but the REASON for the cylinders wearing oval has mostly gone unexplained. I read something recently that said the cylinder liners are basically unsecured and can ‘walk’ down their bores just enough to allow gas to get past the head gasket. The gasket doesn’t blow in the conventional sense, but the area between the cylinder and the block gets pressurized just enough to distort the liner. While that sounds odd and even a little far-fetched, it’s the best explanation I’ve heard by virtue of being the *only* explanation I’ve heard.
I decided there were three basic options:
One, try to live with it. By most accounts the tick takes a long time to get worse and doesn’t lead to catastrophic failure. I'm far too compulsive to be able to ignore the tick. At best, it buys you some time to choose between the other two options.
Two, sell the car. The tick was un-hidable and I’m not a good liar, so I would have had to sell with full disclosure at a huge loss. Also, Aston ownership had been a lifelong dream, and I had made sacrifices to own it that I probably couldn't make again. If I got rid of it, then the dream was dead. Of course, it's human nature to cling to a mistake you're so deeply invested in making.
Three, rebuild or replace the engine. As of five years ago, a factory exchange engine fitted by a dealer was quoted around $38k(!). Used engines averaged maybe a third of that, but they could just as easily have the tick, or some other issue - not worth the risk, IMO. That left rebuilding. I got an estimate from Bamford Rose and their US partner for around $20k. I was reluctant to go that route for two reasons: One, it was never proven to me that the fix was truly permanent, because they didn't know the underlying cause and they didn't seem too worried about finding out. That bothered me. Mike didn't explicitly say "if you can't throw 20 grand at your Aston now and then, you have no business owning one," but he might as well have. To my mind, a rebuilt engine was almost as prone to developing the tick as the original one. I also had a very hard time spending that kind of money on a car I wasn't sure I was ever going to like. I asked myself, if the car didn't tick, would I like it? I didn't know then. I don't know now. I certainly had plenty of other complaints.
I was completely paralyzed. I couldn't live with it, I didn't want to take a massive loss, and I didn't want to dump huge amounts of cash into a fix I wasn't sure would restore my trust. I spent at least 4 of the 4.5 years I owned it wondering what to do. In the end, I was approached by a friend of my father's who wanted to buy the car despite full knowledge of the tick. I sold it for $14k less than I paid, which from a financial standpoint was probably the best result I could have hoped for. By then I was so bitter that there was no hope of ever enjoying the car, but even so it was still hard to let go somehow.
Your attitude toward your car seems more positive than mine ever was, so I assume you're already leaning towards fixing it. The biggest piece of advice I will offer is this: Be decisive. Either dump it or fix it before the tick gets too far under your skin.
I would also advise against a used engine if you're going to keep the car. 20 years later, early DB9 engines are still developing the tick, and I have to think most of them eventually will. I'd hate to invest all that time and money just to trade one time bomb for another.
Removing the engine yourself is a big job to say the least, but it could save you quite a bit of money as the labor to remove and replace the engine is a big part of the cost. The official procedure is to lift the body off of the front and rear subframes, but it is apparently possible to partially dismantle the front of the car and lift the engine up and out. You'll probably need at least two cars' worth of space either way.
Good luck.
The V12 engine was available first in the DB7 in 1999.
Has the 'tick' now become a widespread problem for DB7 owners?
Are there high mileage recent V12 engine cars, that have never had the 'tick'?
In other words, is there a particular manufacture period, when the 'tick' can occur?
When a 'tick' affected engine is dismantled, is the small end wear and/or bore ovality, always only found in particular cylinders?
If so, that might indicate the suggestion of an inadequate oil feed to part of the engine.
Bigger or additional oilways might therefore eliminate further occurrences.
Perhaps AML made a change of that type at some point.
Edited by Jon39 on Saturday 10th February 10:02
For information follow the forum link.
If you are in need of full engine machining and rebuilds for V12 engines. This is now possible. Full details on the website details below. Script from the post also below.
When Ford designed the V12 they, unwittingly we guess, made a pretty large mistake.
They designed and then cast a VERY strong aluminium block which has lasted for over 20 years. But to provide the bores for the pistons to run in they opted to use steel liners. This was/is a well established system and they decided to push in steel liners that were 3mm thick. Again not an illogical step
BUT
they decided to chamfer the liner at it's base (to help it slide down) and thus the bearing surface at the base is 1mm wide.
This 1mm wide steel ring sits on an aluminium ledge in the block.
Engine 1.jpgHere you can see the steel liner (removed) and the ledge it sits on.
All the heat and combustion is at the top of the steel liner and, as we all know, the steel and aluminium expand at different rates. The end result is that all the liners are trying to "walk" down the aluminium bore. The only thing stopping them doing so is a 1mm wide steel ring (the bottom of the liner) sitting on an aluminium platform. Sometimes this works but in every engine (4) we have now checked by taking out the liners, we have found that some of the liners have moved down, enough to allow combustion materials to flow over the top (under the head gasket) and down between the steel liner and aluminium bore.
Here is a shot of one side of a DB7 block which was the first one we opened.
dropped liner 3.jpgYou can see that cylinders 2 and 4 show this problem.
Why this is a problem is because the accumulated burnt matter pushes the steel liners out of round. We are seeing a distortion of up to 0.02mm. This doesn't sound like a lot but 0.02mm exceeds the difference allowed by AML between a Grade 1 and Grade 3 piston (Grade 1 is undersize, Grade 3 oversize).
The effect of a liner going out of round is to load up the piston. This in turn loads up the small end and, we believe, is what translates into the "dreaded tick". Over time the dreaded tick eventually leads to a small end failure and rod through the block.
Here is a shot of my VQ block (63K miles) showing the right side where 4 liners have had clear issues and the left side machined ready for our solution. The orange coulour is rust from the corroding steel coolant pipes I found on my car when I bought it.
Engine 9.jpg
Our solution is to put in wet liners machined to fit. Below is Baz Hart of Hartech (who have a fantastic reputation in the Porsche world) who have been our partner through this.
IMG_9190.jpg
End result is NEW LINERS.jpg
Although we have since improved the process so there are no more gaps between liners.
I have now done 2,500 miles on my new engine with no issues so far. We don't expect any and were pleasantly surprised to find out on our visit to Prodrive that our solution matched exactly what ProDrive did for the DBR9s that won at le Mans, except that they used steel rather than aluminium (Nikasil) liners.
We have a lot of confidence in Hartech. Their latest 4.2 naturally aspirated Porsche 911 engine is giving 426Bhp.
We know we can go to 93mm bore/pistons (the std pistons are 89mm) which would give us 6.5 litres. That will be the next engine we do.
https://astonowners.com/Forum...
If you are in need of full engine machining and rebuilds for V12 engines. This is now possible. Full details on the website details below. Script from the post also below.
When Ford designed the V12 they, unwittingly we guess, made a pretty large mistake.
They designed and then cast a VERY strong aluminium block which has lasted for over 20 years. But to provide the bores for the pistons to run in they opted to use steel liners. This was/is a well established system and they decided to push in steel liners that were 3mm thick. Again not an illogical step
BUT
they decided to chamfer the liner at it's base (to help it slide down) and thus the bearing surface at the base is 1mm wide.
This 1mm wide steel ring sits on an aluminium ledge in the block.
Engine 1.jpgHere you can see the steel liner (removed) and the ledge it sits on.
All the heat and combustion is at the top of the steel liner and, as we all know, the steel and aluminium expand at different rates. The end result is that all the liners are trying to "walk" down the aluminium bore. The only thing stopping them doing so is a 1mm wide steel ring (the bottom of the liner) sitting on an aluminium platform. Sometimes this works but in every engine (4) we have now checked by taking out the liners, we have found that some of the liners have moved down, enough to allow combustion materials to flow over the top (under the head gasket) and down between the steel liner and aluminium bore.
Here is a shot of one side of a DB7 block which was the first one we opened.
dropped liner 3.jpgYou can see that cylinders 2 and 4 show this problem.
Why this is a problem is because the accumulated burnt matter pushes the steel liners out of round. We are seeing a distortion of up to 0.02mm. This doesn't sound like a lot but 0.02mm exceeds the difference allowed by AML between a Grade 1 and Grade 3 piston (Grade 1 is undersize, Grade 3 oversize).
The effect of a liner going out of round is to load up the piston. This in turn loads up the small end and, we believe, is what translates into the "dreaded tick". Over time the dreaded tick eventually leads to a small end failure and rod through the block.
Here is a shot of my VQ block (63K miles) showing the right side where 4 liners have had clear issues and the left side machined ready for our solution. The orange coulour is rust from the corroding steel coolant pipes I found on my car when I bought it.
Engine 9.jpg
Our solution is to put in wet liners machined to fit. Below is Baz Hart of Hartech (who have a fantastic reputation in the Porsche world) who have been our partner through this.
IMG_9190.jpg
End result is NEW LINERS.jpg
Although we have since improved the process so there are no more gaps between liners.
I have now done 2,500 miles on my new engine with no issues so far. We don't expect any and were pleasantly surprised to find out on our visit to Prodrive that our solution matched exactly what ProDrive did for the DBR9s that won at le Mans, except that they used steel rather than aluminium (Nikasil) liners.
We have a lot of confidence in Hartech. Their latest 4.2 naturally aspirated Porsche 911 engine is giving 426Bhp.
We know we can go to 93mm bore/pistons (the std pistons are 89mm) which would give us 6.5 litres. That will be the next engine we do.
https://astonowners.com/Forum...
VanquishRider said:
For information follow the forum link.
Thank you Steve for your detailed explanation. Most interesting.
Ford have a reputation for thorough testing (it is said that AML had to raise their prototype procedure standards, when Ford became owners), but presumably the 'tick' problem was not even revealed, until quite a long time after production commenced.
You mention that Prodrive knew about the weakness, so therefore AML must also have known (joint Chaiman for a while).
Is there a point at which subsequently, a redesign took place for V12 production engines?
Surely the same design weaknesses that you describe, cannot still be present in the 5.2 litre V12?
VanquishRider said:
Steve,Good info, although not relevant directly to me, having a V8V
However, I was interested and the link doesn't seem to work for me. I think it's been cropped by the PH forum software.
Paul
(aka PaulVS or "The Scarlet Pimpernel" on AMOC forum)
Jon39 said:
Thank you Steve for your detailed explanation. Most interesting.
Ford have a reputation for thorough testing (it is said that AML had to raise their prototype procedure standards, when Ford became owners), but presumably the 'tick' problem was not even revealed, until quite a long time after production commenced.
You mention that Prodrive knew about the weakness, so therefore AML must also have known (joint Chaiman for a while).
Is there a point at which subsequently, a redesign took place for V12 production engines?
Surely the same design weaknesses that you describe, cannot still be present in the 5.2 litre V12?
I'm merely posting this from the AstonOwners.com website. I'm not sure anyone can exactly say what causes the faults. I'm of the opinion it could be poor oil quality, poor start up routine etc. Others have other ideas.
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