Transmission confusion
Discussion
I have a 2007 DB9, and up to now I just think of it as 'automatic'. Put it in D and off you go. If it's too sluggish on an overtake, drop a cog with the left paddle.
Today for some reason I was reading about 'Touchtronic 2'. I see this a lot in relation to Astons but never gave it much attention because what happens in the box of cogs doesn't bother me too much (as long as it works and doesn't have 14 year-old oil in it thanks to Aston Sevenoaks. But that's another story).
Anyway, I manage to find that 'TT2' only came in from 2009, so I don't have that. But do I have 'TT1'? I also see something called 'Sport Shift' but it says that's manual, but with paddles. I have paddles, but not a gear lever. So do I have TT1, SS, or is it just 'Automatic' please?
Today for some reason I was reading about 'Touchtronic 2'. I see this a lot in relation to Astons but never gave it much attention because what happens in the box of cogs doesn't bother me too much (as long as it works and doesn't have 14 year-old oil in it thanks to Aston Sevenoaks. But that's another story).
Anyway, I manage to find that 'TT2' only came in from 2009, so I don't have that. But do I have 'TT1'? I also see something called 'Sport Shift' but it says that's manual, but with paddles. I have paddles, but not a gear lever. So do I have TT1, SS, or is it just 'Automatic' please?
V8LM said:
Touchtronic 2 (6 speed ZF auto) was from the start of DB9, I believe. First Touchtronic was on the DB7 Vantage with +/- buttons on the 5 speed auto.
Thanks. It seems I was misled by Wikipedia which says:'The DB9 could be equipped with either a six-speed conventional manual gearbox manufactured by Graziano Trasmissioni or a six-speed ZF Friedrichshafen 'Touchtronic' automatic gearbox featuring paddle-operated semi-automatic mode.[24] The automatic gearbox increases the 0 to 97 km/h (60 mph) acceleration time to 4.9 seconds, though the top speed remains the same. The 2009 model year featured a revised 'Touchtronic 2' gearbox, which offered faster gear shifts due to a new valve box and integrated transmission controls.'
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aston_Martin_DB9
By contrast Aston1936 says: 'I’m talking about the 6-speed Touchtronic II paddle shift unit that was in the majority of DB9’s from 2004 until 2014' - https://aston1936.com/2018/12/23/the-aston-martin-...
So I have Touchtronic 2, or as the ads seems to call it, 'TTroncill'.
Would someone further up the tree than me like to amend the Wikipedia entry? And what is Sportshift?
Happy to oblige…
Your car has an auto gearbox, a proper slush box (torque converter) automatic, which AML call ‘touchtronic’. Cars of DB9 era were called ‘touchtronic 2’ which just meant the 6 speed ZF auto with the usual auto mode, override paddles and the normal PRDN modes, done with buttons on the dash as opposed to a stick or other controller ie the rotary thing that some JLR autos used.
All 2005-2017 VH or n/a Vantages got a manual gearbox of 6 or 7 ratios and a clutch. But not all Vantages had 3 pedals and a stick. Those Vantages that didn’t have the 3rd pedal deployed additional hydraulically actuated robotic systems that actuated both clutch and gear change for the driver. Proper manual gearbox gear changes were thus made by the driver via the paddles (the only advisable way to do it) or via an ‘auto mode’ which asks that the system’s ‘brain’ (or auto shift manual [ASM] controller) change its own ratio when it deems appropriate using various input signals.
Volumes have been written on it, but without the smoothing effect of a torque converter, ‘auto mode’ on the Sportshift could never, ever be remotely as smooth as a ‘normal’ auto. One problem was management of expectations, the button says ‘auto’ so customer (and Ronnie Roadtester..) expectation was often something that felt like an ‘auto’ when the ‘auto’ button was pressed. No sir…
AML called this old 1990’s developed Ferrari F1 based system, deployed only on its sporty Vantage, ‘Sportshift’. It does work well when a car is being ‘sportily’ driven, perhaps is at its best on a racetrack where it executes changes much faster than any driver ever could, and permits a driver to focus more on braking and steering. In the 6-speed V8’s it was called ‘Sportshift 1’, in the 7-speed V8’s it was more developed and had more features and worked better and was called ‘Sportshift 2’. In the V12 Vantages, much the same system as ‘Sportshift 2’ got a stronger clutch and was called ‘Sportshift 3’, which was about as good as it got.
Peens have been written, strong opinions opined, about Sportshift. It divides opinion like nothing else on the little Vantage. Unlike any slusher, and unlike more modern but heavier twin clutch systems like PDK, DSG, (etc), ‘Sportshift’ is not forgiving of a clumsy, mechanically illiterate or incompetent driver. A driver has to learn how to use it and learn all the techniques needed to make it function relatively smoothly.
When an owner eventually figures out how to properly use it, Sportshift, especially the later versions can be immensely satisfying and many of of come to love the strange, funky and quirky (with its strange behaviours and noises) but very mechanical and direct/connected (as any other manual box…) ‘Sportshift’
So there you are. You did ask….
Your car has an auto gearbox, a proper slush box (torque converter) automatic, which AML call ‘touchtronic’. Cars of DB9 era were called ‘touchtronic 2’ which just meant the 6 speed ZF auto with the usual auto mode, override paddles and the normal PRDN modes, done with buttons on the dash as opposed to a stick or other controller ie the rotary thing that some JLR autos used.
All 2005-2017 VH or n/a Vantages got a manual gearbox of 6 or 7 ratios and a clutch. But not all Vantages had 3 pedals and a stick. Those Vantages that didn’t have the 3rd pedal deployed additional hydraulically actuated robotic systems that actuated both clutch and gear change for the driver. Proper manual gearbox gear changes were thus made by the driver via the paddles (the only advisable way to do it) or via an ‘auto mode’ which asks that the system’s ‘brain’ (or auto shift manual [ASM] controller) change its own ratio when it deems appropriate using various input signals.
Volumes have been written on it, but without the smoothing effect of a torque converter, ‘auto mode’ on the Sportshift could never, ever be remotely as smooth as a ‘normal’ auto. One problem was management of expectations, the button says ‘auto’ so customer (and Ronnie Roadtester..) expectation was often something that felt like an ‘auto’ when the ‘auto’ button was pressed. No sir…
AML called this old 1990’s developed Ferrari F1 based system, deployed only on its sporty Vantage, ‘Sportshift’. It does work well when a car is being ‘sportily’ driven, perhaps is at its best on a racetrack where it executes changes much faster than any driver ever could, and permits a driver to focus more on braking and steering. In the 6-speed V8’s it was called ‘Sportshift 1’, in the 7-speed V8’s it was more developed and had more features and worked better and was called ‘Sportshift 2’. In the V12 Vantages, much the same system as ‘Sportshift 2’ got a stronger clutch and was called ‘Sportshift 3’, which was about as good as it got.
Peens have been written, strong opinions opined, about Sportshift. It divides opinion like nothing else on the little Vantage. Unlike any slusher, and unlike more modern but heavier twin clutch systems like PDK, DSG, (etc), ‘Sportshift’ is not forgiving of a clumsy, mechanically illiterate or incompetent driver. A driver has to learn how to use it and learn all the techniques needed to make it function relatively smoothly.
When an owner eventually figures out how to properly use it, Sportshift, especially the later versions can be immensely satisfying and many of of come to love the strange, funky and quirky (with its strange behaviours and noises) but very mechanical and direct/connected (as any other manual box…) ‘Sportshift’
So there you are. You did ask….
Edited by Calinours on Friday 8th December 18:17
Simpo Two said:
And what is Sportshift?
Sportshift is the automated manual as fitted to the VH Vantage range. It's basically a normal manual 'box, with clutch, plus a load of hydraulics and electronics bolted on that operate the clutch and select gear. The car has no clutch pedal but does have paddles to change gear. The gearbox can also operate in an automatic mode, where the car will select the appropriate gear itself, operating the clutch and changing as required. Shall we say that automatic mode is not good.There were three versions of Sportshift, all supplied by Graziano:
- Sportshift 1 (SSI) was a 6-speed gearbox, single-plate clutch, fitted to early 4.3 and 4.7 Vantages.
- Sportshift 2 (SSII) was a 7-speed 'box with a single-plate clutch introduced on the 4.7 Vantage 'S' and then across all Vantages at 12.25MY
- Sportshift 3 (SSIII) was a 7-speed 'box with a twin-plate clutch fitted to the V12 Vantage. I believe the basic gearbox was the same as the SSII
Edited by LTP on Friday 8th December 17:56
996Type said:
On a 2011 DB9 with the 6 speed auto fitted, do you have to back off the accelerator when changing via the paddles?
Or does it function exactly as it does when set to “D” and is fine to change via paddles under hard acceleration without lifting?
The six-speed auto has a torque converter which should "slur" the changes, so no lift-off should be required.Or does it function exactly as it does when set to “D” and is fine to change via paddles under hard acceleration without lifting?
LTP said:
996Type said:
On a 2011 DB9 with the 6 speed auto fitted, do you have to back off the accelerator when changing via the paddles?
Or does it function exactly as it does when set to “D” and is fine to change via paddles under hard acceleration without lifting?
The six-speed auto has a torque converter which should "slur" the changes, so no lift-off should be required.Or does it function exactly as it does when set to “D” and is fine to change via paddles under hard acceleration without lifting?
996Type said:
Thank you, found an old thread also that mentions feathering off the acceleration on paddle shift to get smoother changes, I’ll get some practise in and see how I get on….
I think that's for the Sportshift automated manual gearbox, not the ZF "proper" auto with torque converter. If you start lifting off at the wrong place it could confuse the algorithms in the ECU and make it change when you don't want it to.
Simpo Two said:
I have a 2007 DB9, and up to now I just think of it as 'automatic'. Put it in D and off you go. If it's too sluggish on an overtake, drop a cog with the left paddle. ...
There are so many different transmissions these days, I can appreciate your topic title.
PDK; CVT; AMT; DCT; Sequential; PreSelect, it goes on.
Forget Sportshift, that was used in the Vantage (AMT = automated manual transmission) essential for the GT4 Vantage race cars, because with faster gearchanges than a manual, the lap times are quicker.
Your transmission is the very long established torque converter automatic. To me it seems like magic, in that it works rather like a jet engine, with a sequence of rotating fan blades. Instead of air flowing through the blades though, the transmission has oil moving through, which somehow continuously recirculates.
A very good and reliable transmission. No clutch to wear out.
One of my cars, a Mercedes coupe, has the same auto transmission and the name Mercedes use is Tiptronic. You select gears if you wish by using paddles, whereas I have a gear selector lever with positions PRND and that lever can be moved slightly left to change down and slightly right to change up. All the same functions as your car, just a lever instead of paddles.
I use D (automatic), but occasionally, when I anticipate the autobox will be making unnecessary changes, I move the lever to hold a particular gear. When in D, a sharp accelerator pedal kick down makes it immediately change down one, or sometimes two gears. Mine is 5 speed, yours being 6.
Ref. reliability. Over the years on a couple of occasions, I have experienced a gearbox oil leak (rubber seal where wires go into the gearbox). The first that I knew was the transmission slipping and not changing gear as expected. All caused by the oil level becoming too low. No damage is caused and a refill sorted everything.
An ideal transmission for a GT car.
karatemaserati said:
Just to add a little to calinours's spot on explanation.. you also have touchtronic iii which is the zf8 speed as found in the vanq2S, new vantage, db11, db12.
..And Sportshift is no longer.
ZF autos have pretty much taken over the market
Indeed. Thanks for both clarification and kind words. I own both a Sportshift automated manual and a modern ZF 8 speed slusher (torque converter) auto. Well it’s two ZF8s if I also count the one in the Rangie.. ..And Sportshift is no longer.
ZF autos have pretty much taken over the market
Until fairly recently it was the case that some sort of more ‘sporty’ automated or semi automated transmission alternative was often required to the ‘normal’ 4, 5 or 6 speed torque converter auto.
Thus was spawned various transmission options such as those referenced by Dewi, and also other more obscure efforts which were more about maximising ratio options and fuel economy. I worked in R&D for one promising but as usual for us Brits under financed and aggressively rushed (by impatient investors) concept, the Torotrak ‘IVT’ or infinitely variable transmission with its super cool infinitely variable traction drive with geared neutral. I used to motor around the streets of Leyland Lancashire in the very early 2000s in imported Ford F150s and Chevy Silverados fitted with our very special transmissions. 1000rpm at 70mph.…
What happened was that the manufacturers (well, ZF) never lost faith in the much maligned torque converter concept and continued to develop it. Eventually, those ZF autos (starting with the first ZF8HP) became so good, so efficient, so fast, so many ratios, but maintaining the reliability and comfort/smoothness that the other options (like automated manuals) became pointless. It’s why the (old) new Vantage got a torque converter auto,
something unthinkable for a car like a Vantage just 10yrs before it’s launch.
Us in Europe were used to slow and inefficient 3 or later 4 speed autos where we were unfortunate enough to have to drive one. In the ‘land of the auto’ US where lazy and flexible V8s was relatively common, 2 speed autos were still being used into the 70s..)
Nobody thought that the elderly and humble shush box concept could ever be any good. But (thanks largely to ZF), modern slushers are now, generally, the best available option for higher end and even super sporty ICE cars. The only other transmission still sometimes specified (generally in very expensive stuff ie DBX707) is the dual clutch transmission, with the honourable exception of Lamborghini still soldiering on with an automated manual.
I regularly jump from my upgraded early 2000s tech ASM auto-shift manual in my V8VS (the base transaxle manual box is a Graziano, but the automation is by Magnetti Marelli), to the mid 2010s tech ZF8HP70 in my DB11 and the difference in refinement and shift quality is astounding, while shift speed in sport and sport plus is faster. There are more ratios, better economy, lower maintenance costs (no clutch) and better reliability. There’s no downside.
It’s easy to see why the modern slusher ZF 8 has taken over.
A last word about Aston Martins much derided ‘Sportshift’ - those of us who own these systems know they have their quirks and weaknesses but they can be made to work well, and in many ways they suit the car, and despair at the comments from myriad folks who just leap into one for 5mins and declare them to be ‘rubbish’.
It’s helpful to be able to see things from the perspective of others. For various reasons I couldn’t drive any my cars for a long time recently and after a year jumped into each to give a run out. DB11 was naturally instantly easy, the modern Tremec 6-speed manual I stuck in the old car was as great as ever, but I’d somewhat forgotten how to drive the ASM. It was thus jerky and clunky, until I metaphorically slapped myself and remembered what to do.
This must have been the case for the road testers of the day and of course is the case for all the Youtubing kids who finally get their hands on one and who have never experienced this form of transmission. Unlike a modern ZF, which more and more folk will be used to as the new norm, an ASM is not that straightforward or easy and a wet behind the ears newbie can’t just jump in and instantly look like a hero - Low speed manoeuvring especially.
But - and due in no small part to the fact that driver engagement, interaction and skill IS required, driving an ASM equipped car well is very rewarding. Thus, like many other owners, despite the quirks of the ASM system, I love mine, and actually enjoy driving my well sorted Sportshift V8VS just for fun much more than my far quicker, far more comfortable and far smoother V12 DB11.
Edited by Calinours on Saturday 9th December 09:55
kevin_cambs_uk said:
Well that cleared that up lol!
It did indeed, some excellent replies there - and making far more sense than anything I could find elsewhere.Dewi 2 said:
Your transmission is the very long established torque converter automatic. To me it seems like magic, in that it works rather like a jet engine, with a sequence of rotating fan blades. Instead of air flowing through the blades though, the transmission has oil moving through, which somehow continuously recirculates. A very good and reliable transmission.
Unless the oil gets too old, in which case the torque converter fails - as I discovered the hard way. And the car had only covered 14,500 miles.Dewi 2 said:
Ref. reliability. Over the years on a couple of occasions, I have experienced a gearbox oil leak (rubber seal where wires go into the gearbox). The first that I knew was the transmission slipping and not changing gear as expected. All caused by the oil level becoming too low. No damage is caused and a refill sorted everything.
I too have experienced gearbox oil leaks, starting from when the supplying dealer (not Aston) insisted on using their in-house mechanic to replace the torque converter because it was cheaper that taking it to a specialist. So it took a year and three attempts to fix. The first you know of it is oil on the driveway, by which time it's already filled the undertray.All because the Aston main dealer who sold the car new in 2007 and serviced it every year for 13 years used mileage rather than time to change the oil - so it was never mentioned and never changed. Regular readers will know the story but it's important others know it too to avoid the same problem.
Edited by Simpo Two on Saturday 9th December 11:13
My car is in the garage on axle stands and over Christmas I'm changing the gearbox oil, Aston1936 way, new oil, new internal rubber seals and electronics sleeve. I don't know if it's been changed before but it'll be 20 years old next year!!
You need to keep on replacing all fluids including, power steering, rear diff, coolant etc.
Edited by paulrog1 on Saturday 9th December 12:34
Simpo Two said:
paulrog1 said:
You need to keep on replacing all fluids including, power steering, rear diff, coolant etc.
The funny thing is that none of my other cars have needed that. They just worked. Astons are made of cogs and metal too - so why are they different?All these fluids especially oil based ones have addetives that protect the seals ect and degrade over time, they go through alot of heat cycles.
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