DB11 V8 or V12
Discussion
Hi all,
Currently in a Targa 4S 991.1, haven't had it long but recently had a medical issue with my inner ear that points to me being better suited to a proper GT car as my balance system is a bit buggered. I just can't use the capability of a 911, but I do still want something that's an event to drive.
DB11s seem within range, excellent value for money and fill the brief without going for something truly bonkers like a conti gt or a bit dull like an S63.
The big question for me is V12 or V8? I know the V8s are basically merc running gear, a well known and robust engine, but the V12 also seems to be regarded as a pretty good unit too. Reviews I've seen never really compare them directly but are generally complimentary of both flavours.
A volante is out of reach sadly.
TIA.
Currently in a Targa 4S 991.1, haven't had it long but recently had a medical issue with my inner ear that points to me being better suited to a proper GT car as my balance system is a bit buggered. I just can't use the capability of a 911, but I do still want something that's an event to drive.
DB11s seem within range, excellent value for money and fill the brief without going for something truly bonkers like a conti gt or a bit dull like an S63.
The big question for me is V12 or V8? I know the V8s are basically merc running gear, a well known and robust engine, but the V12 also seems to be regarded as a pretty good unit too. Reviews I've seen never really compare them directly but are generally complimentary of both flavours.
A volante is out of reach sadly.
TIA.
It is a difficult choice.
Some pros/cons in no particular order:
The V8 is all Mercedes 4.0L Hot Vee. The engine is easy to work on, parts are all interchangeable and available at less than ridiculous costs
Nothing (for me) can beat a V12. The noise it makes, the performance, etc.
The V8 supposedly, performs better than the V12 if that matters to you.
The V12 is a mystery engine and, unless you are connected, somehow, you'll probably be seeking AM for most of your services
(I prefer to do as much of my own maintenance and repairs as I can)
As it is turning out, it appears the last of the V12s is the DB11. Doesn't look like the DB12 will get one. That makes the 5.2L V12 Bi turbo special.
I had to make this same decision. I shopped for a DB11. I sold an AMG GTS (with the same V8 engine as in the DB11). I knew (know) that engine inside and out. In the end, I opted for the V12. I am completely happy with that decision, with the exception that DIYing is an extreme challenge; however, in every other way, I would make the same decision to go with the V12 over and over again.
Some pros/cons in no particular order:
The V8 is all Mercedes 4.0L Hot Vee. The engine is easy to work on, parts are all interchangeable and available at less than ridiculous costs
Nothing (for me) can beat a V12. The noise it makes, the performance, etc.
The V8 supposedly, performs better than the V12 if that matters to you.
The V12 is a mystery engine and, unless you are connected, somehow, you'll probably be seeking AM for most of your services
(I prefer to do as much of my own maintenance and repairs as I can)
As it is turning out, it appears the last of the V12s is the DB11. Doesn't look like the DB12 will get one. That makes the 5.2L V12 Bi turbo special.
I had to make this same decision. I shopped for a DB11. I sold an AMG GTS (with the same V8 engine as in the DB11). I knew (know) that engine inside and out. In the end, I opted for the V12. I am completely happy with that decision, with the exception that DIYing is an extreme challenge; however, in every other way, I would make the same decision to go with the V12 over and over again.
Any V8 is a very nice thing but a V12 is always a little bit special.
Even if a V8 was out performing a 12 in most measurable ways I would personally still go for the 12 as that little bit of specialness can't be found on a spec sheet.
I can't rationalise why it's just my preference which is why some will prefer an 8 pot, they just do.
Go with what floats your boat the most cos owning either doesn't really make sense if you try to apply logic
Even if a V8 was out performing a 12 in most measurable ways I would personally still go for the 12 as that little bit of specialness can't be found on a spec sheet.
I can't rationalise why it's just my preference which is why some will prefer an 8 pot, they just do.
Go with what floats your boat the most cos owning either doesn't really make sense if you try to apply logic
It's a tough call. I didn't really want 12 cylinders in my DB9 - too complicated, too much to go wrong, higher repair bills. I'm perfectly happy with V8s. I like the sound of V8s. I didn't buy a DB9 for the engine, I bought it for the looks.
And yet, two years into V12 ownership, I can understand the 'exclusivity' of it. Very few people have V12s. It's nice to be able to say 'No actually it's a V12'. Both sides have their devotees.
If you can't decide, then I'd be led by the rest of the specification - colour, trim etc - and enjoy whatever engine it has
And yet, two years into V12 ownership, I can understand the 'exclusivity' of it. Very few people have V12s. It's nice to be able to say 'No actually it's a V12'. Both sides have their devotees.
If you can't decide, then I'd be led by the rest of the specification - colour, trim etc - and enjoy whatever engine it has
M1AGM said:
OP It’s a shame you can’t stretch your budget, the V12AMR gained the improvements of the V8 setup (which made it a better drive than the original V12) as well as a slightly boosted output and other tweaks.
OP don’t be confused into thinking the DB11 AMR is somehow a different V12 to the original V12 - it isn’t. It’s the same car. The only non cosmetic non software difference between the two cars is slightly stiffer subframe bushes and lighter forged wheels. The AMR upgrade, which changes the damper maps, transmission maps and engine maps to full AMR spec is £999 or nothing if your negotiation skills are good enough. Calinours said:
M1AGM said:
OP It’s a shame you can’t stretch your budget, the V12AMR gained the improvements of the V8 setup (which made it a better drive than the original V12) as well as a slightly boosted output and other tweaks.
OP don’t be confused into thinking the DB11 AMR is somehow a different V12 to the original V12 - it isn’t. It’s the same car. The only non cosmetic non software difference between the two cars is slightly stiffer subframe bushes and lighter forged wheels. The AMR upgrade, which changes the damper maps, transmission maps and engine maps to full AMR spec is £999 or nothing if your negotiation skills are good enough. The AMR flash bumps HP from 600 to 630, but I am at that point in life where I can't use all 600 now, so, other than bragging rites, not very useful for my needs.
Calinours said:
OP don’t be confused into thinking the DB11 AMR is somehow a different V12 to the original V12 - it isn’t. It’s the same car. The only non cosmetic non software difference between the two cars is slightly stiffer subframe bushes and lighter forged wheels. The AMR upgrade, which changes the damper maps, transmission maps and engine maps to full AMR spec is £999 or nothing if your negotiation skills are good enough.
Matt Becker sorted the handling out with the V12 AMR because it wasn’t great on the original car, which he wasn’t around for, and made a number of significant changes, not ‘only slightly stiffer bushes and lighter wheels’.The AMR added ten percent stiffer rear subframe bushings, revised front and rear damper hardware and software, an extra half millimeter in front anti-roll bar stiffness, forged wheels that save 7.7 lbs. per corner, stiffer engine mounts and an ESP system that's much faster and milder with its torque reductions.
Altogether it makes a significant difference. Granted that if you drive like miss daisy you probably wont notice.
M1AGM said:
Calinours said:
OP don’t be confused into thinking the DB11 AMR is somehow a different V12 to the original V12 - it isn’t. It’s the same car. The only non cosmetic non software difference between the two cars is slightly stiffer subframe bushes and lighter forged wheels. The AMR upgrade, which changes the damper maps, transmission maps and engine maps to full AMR spec is £999 or nothing if your negotiation skills are good enough.
Matt Becker sorted the handling out with the V12 AMR because it wasn’t great on the original car, which he wasn’t around for, and made a number of significant changes, not ‘only slightly stiffer bushes and lighter wheels’.The AMR added ten percent stiffer rear subframe bushings, revised front and rear damper hardware and software, an extra half millimeter in front anti-roll bar stiffness, forged wheels that save 7.7 lbs. per corner, stiffer engine mounts and an ESP system that's much faster and milder with its torque reductions.
Altogether it makes a significant difference. Granted that if you drive like miss daisy you probably wont notice.
copied from my ‘considering a DB11’ thread…
skat004 said:
I was in the market for a V12 DB11 and spoke to the local dealer as well as the service guys about the differences in the launch v12 model vs. AMR vs. the latest DB11 which sheds the AMR badge. Here is what I've ascertained from the extensive conversations and spec cross-referencing based on information supplied directly by the dealer.
Launch V12 (2016-2018) had a more traditional GT setup in terms of suspension, gearbox and power delivery. Also, the exhaust note was toned down to cater for the classic aston martin customer that doesn't want loud pops and bangs from their car. You could say this was geared less towards the younger driver.
The AMR V12 (2018 -2021) changed this. The suspension tweaks were ONLY in the suspension bushes and roll bars. the dampers are exactly the same although the damping software is completely remapped. So is the gearbox software and engine management software. The gearshifts are more aggressive and slightly harsher. The turbos are kept spooled up for longer to provide more instantaneous acceleration. Also more fuel is dumped in the catalysts to keep the turbos spooled which is then dumped via the exhaust to produce the crackles and pops. This generally results in a more sporty and more exciting car.
2022 V12 (2022 - onwards) - Same HP as the AMR package but the suspension hardware tweaks have been taken back to mostly the original launch spec. He said this car goes back to the GT roots from a handling perspective. The damper software, gearbox map and engine maps are exactly the same as the previous AMR spec. So this car is effectively the launch spec with the AMR power upgrade. That was his verbatim feedback.
So what am i going to do? pick up the next DB11 V12 from the launch period, and get the AMR upgrade :-)
Edited by Calinours on Thursday 5th October 15:34
Edited by Calinours on Thursday 5th October 15:39
I fully understand that the last DB11 V12s were effectively the launch car with AMR software upgrades, but that has little to do with the differences between the launch car and the AMR version which had various hardware changes that you and your 'source' ignore or rubbish.
If your position is based on what someone wrote on the internet, based on them doing their own research by talking to some dealer service guys, or your 'hunch' about the manufacturer telling porkies (which would be a serious matter) then this particular conversation really is done isn't it?
If your position is based on what someone wrote on the internet, based on them doing their own research by talking to some dealer service guys, or your 'hunch' about the manufacturer telling porkies (which would be a serious matter) then this particular conversation really is done isn't it?
M1AGM said:
I fully understand that the last DB11 V12s were effectively the launch car with AMR software upgrades, but that has little to do with the differences between the launch car and the AMR version which had various hardware changes that you and your 'source' ignore or rubbish.
If your position is based on what someone wrote on the internet, based on them doing their own research by talking to some dealer service guys, or your 'hunch' about the manufacturer telling porkies (which would be a serious matter) then this particular conversation really is done isn't it?
DB11 rear ARB part number:If your position is based on what someone wrote on the internet, based on them doing their own research by talking to some dealer service guys, or your 'hunch' about the manufacturer telling porkies (which would be a serious matter) then this particular conversation really is done isn't it?
HY53-5A771-AA
DB11 AMR rear ARB part number:
HY53-5A771-AA
DB11 V12 Front ARB part number:
KY53-5494-AA.
DB11 AMR Front ARB part number:
KY53-5494-AA
Calinours said:
M1AGM said:
If your position is based on what someone wrote on the internet, based on them doing their own research by talking to some dealer service guys, or your 'hunch' about the manufacturer telling porkies (which would be a serious matter) then this particular conversation really is done isn't it?
DB11 rear ARB part number:HY53-5A771-AA
DB11 AMR rear ARB part number:
HY53-5A771-AA
DB11 V12 Front ARB part number:
KY53-5494-AA.
DB11 AMR Front ARB part number:
KY53-5494-AA
M1AGM said:
... or your 'hunch' about the manufacturer telling porkies (which would be a serious matter) ...
Serious indeed (particularly involving a director of a plc.) and that is why it is remembered so clearly,
but there don't seem to be any consequences.
Feb 2022 - "We do not need any more money at all. Let me be crystal-clear, black-and-white: we do not need money."
On 15 July 2022, the Company announced a fully committed and underwritten rights issue to raise c. £575.8 million.
Being short of £100 could be forgiven, but needing £575,800,000 does involve some advanced warning and also considerable work prior to a public announcement.
Davil said:
Unless of course the item was updated and retained the same part number.
OEMs don't do that unless the old part replaces the new part in service, which clearly an uprated ARB wouldn't. It also means the introduction point of a change couldn't be traced, which is not good practice.On the Aston part numbering system (inherited from Ford) the number is "intelligent" Taking Calinours' example of the rear ARB HY53-5A771-AA:
- The first group - HY53 - designates the model and model year that the exact part was first introduced on.
- The middle section - 5A771 - is the core part number for a rear ARB. All rear anti-roll bars should be designated with this exact number
- The first letter of the last group - A* - is the variant designator. If you had two different ARBs on the same model (e.g Comfort or Sport) then Comfort might be A* whereas Sport might be B*
- The second letter of the last group - *A - is the modification indicator. The first part would be *A, then if they changed something like, say, the finish, that would be *B
If the AMR version of a base model was introduced as a new variant of the core car model and had a different ARB, the part number would be HY53-5A771-BA.
If the AMR variant was introduced later as a new model programme for the 57 model year with a different rear ARB then the part might be HY57-5A771-AA
Misappropriation fixed
Edited by LTP on Friday 6th October 15:41
Heres a link to a currently live advert for a s/h front ARB from a 2019 DB11 AMR. The part number can be seen in the photos.
https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/196011131308?mkcid=16&a...
https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/196011131308?mkcid=16&a...
No worries. Reversing out of all this detail and getting back to the question presented by the OP, he should by now be aware that his choice is V8 or V12/AMR. A £999 engine/transmission/damping software flash makes an early V12 into the same car as the later AMR V12, but an earlier car might (or might not ) be devoid of some tiny and likely impossible to detect hardware tweaks to anti roll bars and bushes - much the same as any earlier version of any car really, it’s just that AML presented the tiny tweaks as a new model (and an opportunity to hike the price) and once again shot themselves royally in the foot by irritating all the loyal customers who had just months earlier bought the launch car - hence the offered software package which dynamically and acoustically aligns the earlier cars with the later ones.
The advice to OP as ever is to drive both V8 and any V12. Due to the torque being so similar there’s little in it performance wise and the V8, being so much lighter in the nose is generally acknowledged as the sharper tool, especially if you are regularly going to hoon it.
If, like me however you believe the engine of a car like that to be it’s heart and soul, and appreciate the effortless delivery, turbine smoothness, sonic swagger and top end punch that only the V12 delivers, when you ask yourself, “hmmm, shall I have a Merc 4 litre V8 or an Aston Martin Lagonda 5.2 litre V12 ?” - the answer should be obvious
Note also that the AE31 is a monster of an engine, over engineered by AM to be developed for many years. AM engines always have a quality crank, but for the AE31 the cheap Ford rods/pistons in the n/a 5.9 were replaced by much higher end fully forged rods and pistons. If power is your bag, note that when flashed to 630hp AMR spec ~ it is just 40hp down on the heavily boosted 671hp AMG V8 in the new DB12, if flashed by DAE to Velocity/AP 710hp spec (using standard manifolds), it would be ~ 40hp beyond even the 671hp DB12) and delivering DBSS thrust, though it might be at the limit of what the ZF8HP75 can cope with. I have read that AM may use that (the 750Nm rated version of that trans fitted to the ~700Nm DB11) version of the 8HP in the DB12, as opposed to the 8HP95 they put in the monster-torque (900Nm) DBSS.
https://www.velocityap.com/product/aston-martin-db...
With their own AP downpipes, it’s 750hp, or 760bhp, so you can if you want easily take any DB11 V12 to pretty much the power of the DBS 770, which is just a reflashed DBSS AE31, itself of course being a reflashed DB11 AE31. All used the exact same AE31 engine assembly. Note the DBSS did use a bigger cooling pack and the tougher 8HP95 auto.
All very tempting, but I could imagine frustrating as you can rarely get the power down in the lower gears even in a bog standard 600hp/700Nm car, though I find warm PS4S do help a lot…
) be devoid of some tiny and likely impossible to detect hardware tweaks to anti roll bars and bushes - much the same as any earlier version of any car really, it’s just that AML presented the tiny tweaks as a new model (and an opportunity to hike the price) and once again shot themselves royally in the foot by irritating all the loyal customers who had just months earlier bought the launch car - hence the offered software package which dynamically and acoustically aligns the earlier cars with the later ones. The advice to OP as ever is to drive both V8 and any V12. Due to the torque being so similar there’s little in it performance wise and the V8, being so much lighter in the nose is generally acknowledged as the sharper tool, especially if you are regularly going to hoon it.
If, like me however you believe the engine of a car like that to be it’s heart and soul, and appreciate the effortless delivery, turbine smoothness, sonic swagger and top end punch that only the V12 delivers, when you ask yourself, “hmmm, shall I have a Merc 4 litre V8 or an Aston Martin Lagonda 5.2 litre V12 ?” - the answer should be obvious
Note also that the AE31 is a monster of an engine, over engineered by AM to be developed for many years. AM engines always have a quality crank, but for the AE31 the cheap Ford rods/pistons in the n/a 5.9 were replaced by much higher end fully forged rods and pistons. If power is your bag, note that when flashed to 630hp AMR spec ~ it is just 40hp down on the heavily boosted 671hp AMG V8 in the new DB12, if flashed by DAE to Velocity/AP 710hp spec (using standard manifolds), it would be ~ 40hp beyond even the 671hp DB12) and delivering DBSS thrust, though it might be at the limit of what the ZF8HP75 can cope with. I have read that AM may use that (the 750Nm rated version of that trans fitted to the ~700Nm DB11) version of the 8HP in the DB12, as opposed to the 8HP95 they put in the monster-torque (900Nm) DBSS.
https://www.velocityap.com/product/aston-martin-db...
With their own AP downpipes, it’s 750hp, or 760bhp, so you can if you want easily take any DB11 V12 to pretty much the power of the DBS 770, which is just a reflashed DBSS AE31, itself of course being a reflashed DB11 AE31. All used the exact same AE31 engine assembly. Note the DBSS did use a bigger cooling pack and the tougher 8HP95 auto.
All very tempting, but I could imagine frustrating as you can rarely get the power down in the lower gears even in a bog standard 600hp/700Nm car, though I find warm PS4S do help a lot…
Edited by Calinours on Friday 6th October 17:13
Edited by Calinours on Friday 6th October 17:23
Gassing Station | Aston Martin | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff