Can Aston Martin Survive in the Electric Vehicle Era?
Discussion
For many of us, the Aston Martin sound is an integral part of our ownership experience. Driving an electric version, might be less of an occasion and perhaps the actual driving experience quite similar to all other electric cars.
Piston Ted explained this aspect succinctly when he said;
"... stepping into a two seater performance car and firing up the battery - what a depressing thought".
Aston Martin may introduce beautiful designs, but presumably if the electric driving experience does become generic, there would be other electric cars at a fraction of the hand built cost. It might not be long before the low-cost Chinese cars are on sale in Europe.
If EVs do become a prelude to a different better innovation, manufacturers still need to survive the EV period.
Do you foresee Aston Martin having good demand for their electric cars ?
Present AM enthusiasts might not be looking forward to an electric Aston Martin, but will there be a new group of customers who love electric sports cars.
What are your thoughts ?
Its a bit like asking does Miele have a future in washing machines when Beko exist.(sorry couldn't resist the white goods comparison when talking BEV)
They both do the same job, same as with a BYD vs AM.
The differentiator will have to be looks and looks, and range, (oh and apparently infotainment).
If you are paying 30 x the price of the basic electric wheeled box, then it better feel 30 x better, and most importantly make you feel 30 x happier…
They both do the same job, same as with a BYD vs AM.
The differentiator will have to be looks and looks, and range, (oh and apparently infotainment).
If you are paying 30 x the price of the basic electric wheeled box, then it better feel 30 x better, and most importantly make you feel 30 x happier…
AM does seem to always rise from the ashes somehow, and how no doubt it will continue to exist in some capacity.
I don't think LS cares much for the more traditional AM customer and is making as much as he can from what's left from the AP era before making the switch. He said as much in an interview that it's all about the brand.
I don't think LS cares much for the more traditional AM customer and is making as much as he can from what's left from the AP era before making the switch. He said as much in an interview that it's all about the brand.
I’m afraid I am completely unable to see how the performance car makers will survive this. Aston would have to produce something really really special to tempt me to part with the best part of 200k for a car without an engine, I mean it’s going to have to be an absolute blinder of a thing to look at and then handle like an F1 car but even then - really? Most of these machines are bought for pleasure, just imagine the day you collect your shiny new toy from the dealership and silently drive out of the showroom to then silently go for a weekend in the highlands, it’s not happening for me I’m afraid.
I applaud Porsche for attempting to do something about it, they clearly recognise the importance of their legacy vehicles to the marque (claiming that 70% of all Porsche’s ever made are still road worthy) and I dare say a number of their existing owners would rather not see a battery powered 911, that is a marque that understands what sells and why, hence I guess their investment into ‘E Fuels’. I was excited when Tobias Moers was appointed, believing that he was an ‘engine guy’ and that perhaps he would help fight the corner of performance car makers, apparently not. Ferrari have so far remained fairly quiet on the subject and not announced (as far as I know) a date with which they will cease to sell internal combustion engined cars, it’ll be interesting to see how they tackle the problem.
Perhaps I’m to simplistic in my approach to these things and perhaps I’m just passionate about motor cars with engines but in my mind if all the performance car manufacturers stood up together and fought for their USP then exemptions could or would have to be made? It seems as though most manufacturers have just given in and accepted fate. Perhaps that’s what I need to do and then I’d stop worrying about it all!
I keep coming back to the same point in my mind though, who - WHO is walking into a Ferrari dealership and handing over a huge sum of money for battery’s, and especially Ferrari where so much of their history is tied up with the engine.
I applaud Porsche for attempting to do something about it, they clearly recognise the importance of their legacy vehicles to the marque (claiming that 70% of all Porsche’s ever made are still road worthy) and I dare say a number of their existing owners would rather not see a battery powered 911, that is a marque that understands what sells and why, hence I guess their investment into ‘E Fuels’. I was excited when Tobias Moers was appointed, believing that he was an ‘engine guy’ and that perhaps he would help fight the corner of performance car makers, apparently not. Ferrari have so far remained fairly quiet on the subject and not announced (as far as I know) a date with which they will cease to sell internal combustion engined cars, it’ll be interesting to see how they tackle the problem.
Perhaps I’m to simplistic in my approach to these things and perhaps I’m just passionate about motor cars with engines but in my mind if all the performance car manufacturers stood up together and fought for their USP then exemptions could or would have to be made? It seems as though most manufacturers have just given in and accepted fate. Perhaps that’s what I need to do and then I’d stop worrying about it all!
I keep coming back to the same point in my mind though, who - WHO is walking into a Ferrari dealership and handing over a huge sum of money for battery’s, and especially Ferrari where so much of their history is tied up with the engine.
Precisely this.
It seems to me that we are in an era where politicians make pronouncements based on no practical basis at all, and expect it to just happen. We are all expected to accept that cars will be electric. We are all expected to just accept what we are told. There were XR demonstrations in London yesterday and it’s all over the news. There were massive anti lockdown/COVID demonstrations in Newcastle two weeks ago and it’s as if it never happened. We’re just being fed propaganda.
At some point this ‘model’ from political dreamland is going to break down.
Even if the electric car was a practical option for most people (and it’s not - check out Shmee150 on YouTube - Worst Experience Yet - and that’s with a Porsche Taycan) where’s the differentiator? And as you say, it takes a particular kind of determination to shell out £200k for a car. I wouldn’t do that for an electric car. It’s only useful as a city car, and maybe very good for that. But even then, it would be like an electric Uber, would you really want to own one? Who on here actually wants a Tesla? Somebody does, certainly. But for me, the day AM, or Ferrari, or Lamborghini, or Porsche, goes all electric, is the day that reality bites, and these companies vanish. Can AM sunglasses, or fragrances, or jackets, or golf clubs, or yachts or helicopters, exist in a world where the core product, a petrol engined car, has ceased to exist? I’m thinking that they can’t.
I have bought a collection of cars in anticipation of the evil day when you can’t buy them any more, and I have got some crackers. When the day comes, I’m just going to stop buying cars, stop going into showrooms or looking at road tests, or buying car magazines, and I will be happy with the cars I have.
It seems to me that we are in an era where politicians make pronouncements based on no practical basis at all, and expect it to just happen. We are all expected to accept that cars will be electric. We are all expected to just accept what we are told. There were XR demonstrations in London yesterday and it’s all over the news. There were massive anti lockdown/COVID demonstrations in Newcastle two weeks ago and it’s as if it never happened. We’re just being fed propaganda.
At some point this ‘model’ from political dreamland is going to break down.
Even if the electric car was a practical option for most people (and it’s not - check out Shmee150 on YouTube - Worst Experience Yet - and that’s with a Porsche Taycan) where’s the differentiator? And as you say, it takes a particular kind of determination to shell out £200k for a car. I wouldn’t do that for an electric car. It’s only useful as a city car, and maybe very good for that. But even then, it would be like an electric Uber, would you really want to own one? Who on here actually wants a Tesla? Somebody does, certainly. But for me, the day AM, or Ferrari, or Lamborghini, or Porsche, goes all electric, is the day that reality bites, and these companies vanish. Can AM sunglasses, or fragrances, or jackets, or golf clubs, or yachts or helicopters, exist in a world where the core product, a petrol engined car, has ceased to exist? I’m thinking that they can’t.
I have bought a collection of cars in anticipation of the evil day when you can’t buy them any more, and I have got some crackers. When the day comes, I’m just going to stop buying cars, stop going into showrooms or looking at road tests, or buying car magazines, and I will be happy with the cars I have.
Edited by ExecutiveAction on Wednesday 25th August 22:31
As I said in another thread: “I don’t want a pure-EV Aston Martin – I like engines, so a fully electric Aston just doesn’t appeal to me. I’d consider a hybrid, but 1) Moers said that’s not the plan, and 2) if somehow that changes, he said there will be no more Aston engines once the V12 is gone anyway, so for me that’s that.”
For me, the combustion engine is an integral and hugely important part of the appeal of a car, and is one of the most important things that distinguish one car from another. Electric motors don’t differ much from each other, except for power/torque. Zillion hp EVs don’t appeal to me either – there’s no way, and nowhere, to use that level of performance. I’ve driven a variety of Teslas and a Taycan Turbo (an utterly ridiculous name for an EV). EVs are technologically impressive in many ways, but even ignoring range-related issues, I don’t find myself having any desire to own one. None.
Moreover, the near-universal messaging that EVs will save the world seems massively flawed. Which is rather important. First, ICEs emit a miniscule fraction of what they did even just a few years ago, and there are so many other large sources of pollution. Technology continues to improve to make them cleaner still. Hopefully synthetic fuels are viable. Also, if we’d just stop the ridiculous power race – we don’t need 1000hp cars to have fun, nor do most people who buy typical sedans and SUVs need 300 or 400 hp – they’d use much less fuel. Manufacturing EVs is much worse for the environment than manufacturing ICE cars. A huge percentage of the materials required to manufacture electric motors and batteries come from China. How environmentally friendly is mining and manufacturing in China??? Horrific! They generate the vast majority of their electricity by burning coal, and will continue to for several more decades. Climate change is a global problem, not just a US, UK or EU problem. Who are the biggest, most vocal champions of EVs? China – what a surprise, since the entire world’s economy would become totally dependent on China. And Europe – why, exactly, is Europe lunging toward EVs?
Don’t get me wrong, I think EVs have a big role to play going forward. But the notion that they should completely replace ICE vehicles is flawed in so many crucial ways, not least of which is that they’re not necessarily much better for the environment. Perhaps they will be one day, but we’re very far from that.
About Moers, everything I feared about him is proving true, sadly. IMO, he has zero concept or appreciation for what makes an Aston an Aston. He said he sees “no reason” to use an Aston engine – he killed Aston’s new V6 since he can simply use an AMG. He lies about that in interviews, saying the TM01 engine “was just a concept” and it “didn’t exist.” Remarkable that we’ve seen videos of it running… Yes, this is a controversial subject, but even those who think an AMG engine in an Aston is tolerable tend to agree that an Aston engine would be preferable. Moers, however, sees “no reason” and stated that he’d rather spend money on an Aston infotainment system than on an Aston engine. That alone should get him thrown out. That he sees no issue with going fully electric doesn’t surprise me at all. Some "engine guy" he's turned out to be. It’s awful and, I think, very premature. I could be wrong, of course, but Porsche, Ferrari, Lamborghini and McLaren have all said they plan to keep combustion engines as long as they can.
Stroll is 100% a brand guy – that’s all that matters to him. That made him a fortune, but it’s the wrong philosophy to apply to a small and special marque that has invoked great passion in people. Brand is all – and only -- about the message, what they tell/persuade you about a product. What it actually is doesn’t really matter as long as people will buy.
If things go as they appear to be going, I’ll keep the Astons I have now, and I’ll buy other cars of various vintages. It’s increasingly likely that I’ll never buy another new car because I want it.
For me, the combustion engine is an integral and hugely important part of the appeal of a car, and is one of the most important things that distinguish one car from another. Electric motors don’t differ much from each other, except for power/torque. Zillion hp EVs don’t appeal to me either – there’s no way, and nowhere, to use that level of performance. I’ve driven a variety of Teslas and a Taycan Turbo (an utterly ridiculous name for an EV). EVs are technologically impressive in many ways, but even ignoring range-related issues, I don’t find myself having any desire to own one. None.
Moreover, the near-universal messaging that EVs will save the world seems massively flawed. Which is rather important. First, ICEs emit a miniscule fraction of what they did even just a few years ago, and there are so many other large sources of pollution. Technology continues to improve to make them cleaner still. Hopefully synthetic fuels are viable. Also, if we’d just stop the ridiculous power race – we don’t need 1000hp cars to have fun, nor do most people who buy typical sedans and SUVs need 300 or 400 hp – they’d use much less fuel. Manufacturing EVs is much worse for the environment than manufacturing ICE cars. A huge percentage of the materials required to manufacture electric motors and batteries come from China. How environmentally friendly is mining and manufacturing in China??? Horrific! They generate the vast majority of their electricity by burning coal, and will continue to for several more decades. Climate change is a global problem, not just a US, UK or EU problem. Who are the biggest, most vocal champions of EVs? China – what a surprise, since the entire world’s economy would become totally dependent on China. And Europe – why, exactly, is Europe lunging toward EVs?
Don’t get me wrong, I think EVs have a big role to play going forward. But the notion that they should completely replace ICE vehicles is flawed in so many crucial ways, not least of which is that they’re not necessarily much better for the environment. Perhaps they will be one day, but we’re very far from that.
About Moers, everything I feared about him is proving true, sadly. IMO, he has zero concept or appreciation for what makes an Aston an Aston. He said he sees “no reason” to use an Aston engine – he killed Aston’s new V6 since he can simply use an AMG. He lies about that in interviews, saying the TM01 engine “was just a concept” and it “didn’t exist.” Remarkable that we’ve seen videos of it running… Yes, this is a controversial subject, but even those who think an AMG engine in an Aston is tolerable tend to agree that an Aston engine would be preferable. Moers, however, sees “no reason” and stated that he’d rather spend money on an Aston infotainment system than on an Aston engine. That alone should get him thrown out. That he sees no issue with going fully electric doesn’t surprise me at all. Some "engine guy" he's turned out to be. It’s awful and, I think, very premature. I could be wrong, of course, but Porsche, Ferrari, Lamborghini and McLaren have all said they plan to keep combustion engines as long as they can.
Stroll is 100% a brand guy – that’s all that matters to him. That made him a fortune, but it’s the wrong philosophy to apply to a small and special marque that has invoked great passion in people. Brand is all – and only -- about the message, what they tell/persuade you about a product. What it actually is doesn’t really matter as long as people will buy.
If things go as they appear to be going, I’ll keep the Astons I have now, and I’ll buy other cars of various vintages. It’s increasingly likely that I’ll never buy another new car because I want it.
What if small volume manufacturers of sports cars like AM, Lamborghini, Ferrari et al. get an exemption from the governments and they can go on to do what they do? If there is no real demand for electric from them, their volumes surely has a very low impact on pollution; there will be no market and their CO2 will be negligible.
Think about small propeller planes. They are still around and they have their use case even after jet engines became mainstream.
Think about small propeller planes. They are still around and they have their use case even after jet engines became mainstream.
Of course AM can survive.
The DB5 for example was a nice, quick(ish) car in its day but the engine was not the main selling point. It was the style and craftsmanship and exclusivity.
That's what AM needs to get back to. Don't try and be a British Ferrari.
Cars that look and feel stylish inside and out are where it's at. No gimmicks. Timeless elegance.
Bring on the Aston Martin Voltage.
The DB5 for example was a nice, quick(ish) car in its day but the engine was not the main selling point. It was the style and craftsmanship and exclusivity.
That's what AM needs to get back to. Don't try and be a British Ferrari.
Cars that look and feel stylish inside and out are where it's at. No gimmicks. Timeless elegance.
Bring on the Aston Martin Voltage.
I think AM could be better poised than others, because Grand Tourers, luxury saloons etc, still make sense.
But my own feeling is that the EV revolution signals the death knell of the sports car. So much of what makes a sports car an emotional buy will be gone. I have zero interest in a zero emission Vantage. Same goes for 911.
But my own feeling is that the EV revolution signals the death knell of the sports car. So much of what makes a sports car an emotional buy will be gone. I have zero interest in a zero emission Vantage. Same goes for 911.
Agent57 said:
Of course AM can survive.
The DB5 for example was a nice, quick(ish) car in its day but the engine was not the main selling point. It was the style and craftsmanship and exclusivity.
That's what AM needs to get back to. Don't try and be a British Ferrari.
Cars that look and feel stylish inside and out are where it's at. No gimmicks. Timeless elegance.
Bring on the Aston Martin Voltage.
I have mixed feelings about EV, but agree with this. For me, AM has occupied a (great) middle ground between Bentley at the luxury end and Ferrari at the sporting end of the spectrum. There needs to be style, craftsmanship, and the elegant wrapping of technology for AM to succeed. The DB5 for example was a nice, quick(ish) car in its day but the engine was not the main selling point. It was the style and craftsmanship and exclusivity.
That's what AM needs to get back to. Don't try and be a British Ferrari.
Cars that look and feel stylish inside and out are where it's at. No gimmicks. Timeless elegance.
Bring on the Aston Martin Voltage.
It does worry me that in an EV era, too many manufacturers will chase the stats or incorporate tech in ways that detract from the overall driving experience. Short sighted approach if you ask me, as who really cares about 2.8 vs 2.9s 0-60? Fine line though as if they don’t evolve the design, they’ll be accused of living in the past (even more than some already suggest).
I wonder if driving cars for pleasure use will exist in 20-30 years time ? maybe it will be a niche hobby for the well off whilst the general population get picked up by some electric pod thing and taken where they want to go.
So the question is relevant to all sports car manufacturers. When transport becomes an electric powered utility that you rent use of, will people still want to own an electric powered sportscar that just looks different to use at the weekend in (no doubt) restricted speed limits of towns n cities etc.
or maybe the future will be for classic ICE sportscar owners to use their cars on trackdays for a certain amount of time per year ?
who knows.....Im making the most of what we have now and need to get a V12 upgrade done before 2030
So the question is relevant to all sports car manufacturers. When transport becomes an electric powered utility that you rent use of, will people still want to own an electric powered sportscar that just looks different to use at the weekend in (no doubt) restricted speed limits of towns n cities etc.
or maybe the future will be for classic ICE sportscar owners to use their cars on trackdays for a certain amount of time per year ?
who knows.....Im making the most of what we have now and need to get a V12 upgrade done before 2030
Speedraser said:
...Loads of excellent stuff...
Almost all of which I agree with. I just hope and expect Moers to turn out better than you expect. If the new motor had been a four litre NA straight six, I would have been whining about its cancellation more than anybody. Maybe it just wasn't as good as the Mercedes V8. Many good cars and companies have been ruined by wanting 'their own engine', which turns out to have been a lot worse than what they could have simply bought in. The Triumph Stag is the stand-out example. They built a V8 with fundamental structural issues and built in unreliability, when they could simply have used the Buick small block V8, as used to terrific effect in the Rover 3500S and Morgan Plus 8. That 'vanity' engine finished the Stag, which was otherwise a world beater, and by extension, Triumph.
Agent57 said:
Of course AM can survive.
The DB5 for example was a nice, quick(ish) car in its day but the engine was not the main selling point. It was the style and craftsmanship and exclusivity.
That's what AM needs to get back to. Don't try and be a British Ferrari.
Cars that look and feel stylish inside and out are where it's at. No gimmicks. Timeless elegance.
Bring on the Aston Martin Voltage.
The Ferrari 275GTB may have turned out faster than the DB5 back in the day, but AM were trying to beat them on performance, which is why they were developing their 5.3 litre V8 engine. I believe that they actually put one of those in a DB5 test mule. Maybe the DB5 lacked the edge in performance, and some customers preferred the undoubtedly elegant (Italian) styling and best of British craftsmanship, but AM was trying to be the British Ferrari, even then. You may try, and fail gloriously, but you certainly won't win by not trying, which, it seems to me, is what you are advocating. An electric AM is hampered by lacking the character of the ICE, and by the compromised handling associated with battery weight. You can't go grand touring in a car that has to stop for a 45 minute recharge every 200 miles, less if you really use the performance. I just can't get excited about what is little more than a stylish and expensively upholstered milk float, nor ever wish to own one. The DB5 for example was a nice, quick(ish) car in its day but the engine was not the main selling point. It was the style and craftsmanship and exclusivity.
That's what AM needs to get back to. Don't try and be a British Ferrari.
Cars that look and feel stylish inside and out are where it's at. No gimmicks. Timeless elegance.
Bring on the Aston Martin Voltage.
I have seen financial magazines promote companies who convert classic cars to electric drive, claiming this is the way forward for classics. All that demonstrates to me is how little they understand about the investments they are promoting.
What is the essence of this debate? Is it that a brand which is without genuine content or integrity has a short but perhaps profitable shelf life? I think that much of it is about the essential nature of electric power, which has its uses but is more or less devoid of character. Aston Martin is all about character.
My hopes are pinned on the Porsche Eco-Fuel and hydrogen.
ExecutiveAction said:
If the new motor had been a four litre NA straight six, I would have been whining about its cancellation more than anybody.
Off topic, but can you guess the capacity and how many cylinders this 'in-house' 600 bhp engine has, by listening to the sound.
As the film continues they use more revs.
Oh, if 600 bhp is not enough, perhaps the electric motors help becsuse the overall total is 1,700 bhp !!!!
Not as good as an Aston Martin exhaust sound, but do the flames make up for that ?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lUmkRGAlO9Y
Jon39 said:
Off topic, but can you guess the capacity and how many cylinders this 'in-house' 600 bhp engine has, by listening to the sound.
As the film continues they use more revs.
Oh, if 600 bhp is not enough, perhaps the electric motors help becsuse the overall total is 1,700 bhp !!!!
Not as good as an Aston Martin exhaust sound, but do the flames make up for that ?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lUmkRGAlO9Y
Venturist said:
You’re aware that’s a computer game? The real Gemera I believe hasn’t even run yet, it was just a show car, but I could be wrong.
Yes, I have just realised that. Dammit, computer graphics are far too realistic now.
Have just looked for a real car video, but although there are some with the car moving, could not find one with engine sound.
Christian von Koenigsegg has embraced electric and low emissions, but wants to retain the traditional experience for petrolheads (or at least some who can afford the cost). His own engine is an in-line 2 litre 3 cylinder TT 600bhp. He describes 2 litres as being of sufficient size (each cylinder being bigger than a V8V) to produce an appropriate exhaust sound.
ExecutiveAction said:
Almost all of which I agree with. I just hope and expect Moers to turn out better than you expect.
If the new motor had been a four litre NA straight six, I would have been whining about its cancellation more than anybody. Maybe it just wasn't as good as the Mercedes V8. Many good cars and companies have been ruined by wanting 'their own engine', which turns out to have been a lot worse than what they could have simply bought in. The Triumph Stag is the stand-out example. They built a V8 with fundamental structural issues and built in unreliability, when they could simply have used the Buick small block V8, as used to terrific effect in the Rover 3500S and Morgan Plus 8. That 'vanity' engine finished the Stag, which was otherwise a world beater, and by extension, Triumph.
FWIW I believe the Stag engine was as you indeed state a unique build, and indeed they probably should have used the Buick engine, but I don't recall it ever being stated as having failures due to bad design, I believe (having owned and restored one) that it was casting sand left in the block that caused premature failures - that was build quality more than design wasn't it ? If the new motor had been a four litre NA straight six, I would have been whining about its cancellation more than anybody. Maybe it just wasn't as good as the Mercedes V8. Many good cars and companies have been ruined by wanting 'their own engine', which turns out to have been a lot worse than what they could have simply bought in. The Triumph Stag is the stand-out example. They built a V8 with fundamental structural issues and built in unreliability, when they could simply have used the Buick small block V8, as used to terrific effect in the Rover 3500S and Morgan Plus 8. That 'vanity' engine finished the Stag, which was otherwise a world beater, and by extension, Triumph.
Some really interesting thoughts and thankfully I don’t appear to be on my own in thinking the way I do about this, sometimes I feel like I’m going mad. It’s been like therapy being able to say what I think amongst like minded people!
Here’s a question then . . . How do we think the development engineers at Aston (and other firms such as Ferrari etc) feel about having to engineer a battery performance car? Presumably you don’t just fall into those careers, you would no doubt have a passion for cars of that ilk and have grown up lusting after performance cars with an internal combustion engine but now you’re told those set of skills are no longer required and the product you must now develop will be void of most of its character, I think I’d be pretty miffed! Perhaps a bit like a fast jet pilot having spent several years of training being told he must now ‘fly’ a drone from a portacabin
Here’s a question then . . . How do we think the development engineers at Aston (and other firms such as Ferrari etc) feel about having to engineer a battery performance car? Presumably you don’t just fall into those careers, you would no doubt have a passion for cars of that ilk and have grown up lusting after performance cars with an internal combustion engine but now you’re told those set of skills are no longer required and the product you must now develop will be void of most of its character, I think I’d be pretty miffed! Perhaps a bit like a fast jet pilot having spent several years of training being told he must now ‘fly’ a drone from a portacabin
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