V12 Engine History

[scogins]

Hi folks

Does anyone know if the V12 engine physically evolved much over the years?

I’m aware that a number of ‘bolt on’ parts have changed between models (inlet, exhaust manifold, etc), but what about the actual engine itself? Any internal tweaks?

The original 420bhp in the DB7 Vantage to the latter-day 565bhp of the Vantage S / Vanquish was a heck of a hike - how did they achieve it?

Cheers

[Agent57]

Good and interesting question.

I have seen pictures somewhere. Later engines look quite different under the bonnet to the early ones.

Think the air intakes moved as they were badly positioned to start with.

Wonder how much was the same when it went from 420 BHP in 1999 to 600 BHP 20 years later.

Edited by Agent57 on Friday 19th February 12:57

[paulrog1]

Watch this video, everything you need to know

https://youtu.be/wxXMukKnzX0

[Agent57]

After a bit of digging:

Engine Year Power (PS) Car
AM01 2001-2004 420 DB7 Vantage
AM02 2002-2003 441 DB7 GT
AM03 2001-2004 466 Vanquish
AM04 2004-2008 456 DB9
AM05 2005-2007 385 V8V
AM06 2004-2007 528 Vanquish S
AM07 2008-2009 426 V8V
AM08 2007-2012 517 DBS
AM09 2008-2012 476 DB9
AM10 2007-2012 517 V12 V
AM11 2012-2014 573 Vanquish 2
AM12
AM13
AM14 2009-2010 426 V8V
AM15 2011 437 V8VS
AM16 2010-2012 476 Rapide
AM17
AM18
AM19
AM20
AM21 2011-2012 760 One-77
AM22
AM23
AM24
AM25 2011-2012 496 Virage
AM26
AM27
AM28 2013 573 V12VS
AM29 2015 577 Vanquish2 / Rapide S

[scogins]

paulrog1 said:

Watch this video, everything you need to know

https://youtu.be/wxXMukKnzX0

Cheers - was a good watch!

So it seems the most significant (physical) changes came for the 510+ bhp cars. VVT on the cams and revised combustion chambers.

Interestingly, I saw on the Bamford Rose website that the DB9 inlet manifolds should should give a 20-ish bhp gain over the DB7’s. Loses about 30 nm in torque though.

Begs the question - is 500 bhp achievable on the DB7 Vantage by simply changing the inlet manifold, a”changing to 200 cell cats, and mapping?

[Agent57]

https://en.aston-martin-club.com/engines_family.ph...

Worth a look.

[AM4884]

I purchased my DB9 with a destroyed motor, knowing that I would be restoring it in my garage. I did this because of the "Duratec myth" and the recognition that Ford Cosworth designed and built the motor. I reasoned that the FC guys would draw as many parts as possible from the global supply chain. And as indicated in the video, that is exactly what FC did. Every part that could come from Ford, came from Ford. Besides the obvious scale out from a 4, or a 6, or a 8, all the internals except the oil pump are stock Ford parts. Even the oil pump is based on a Ford, but has some custom anti-sling fins on the exterior of it to reduce oil being sucked up by the crank. As the video indicates there is a huge advantage of using off the shelf parts - they have been durability tested, and they have had the cost driven out of them.

The flaws of the Duratec head designs came with the design - namely that oil pools in the head due to small return holes (google will find stories for you in the ford chats). This can cause starvation in long sweeping turns (exiting a motorway and taking it hard for example). The "solution" is to run more oil (the 11 qt to 12 qt bump), and add a custom windage tray to keep the oil below the crank. There is also a problem with the little end bushings not carrying enough oil. Ford noticed this and redesigned the bushing in the 2006 time frame and recommended an additional 1/2 qt of oil/keeping the oil full which sounds familiar to us all.

And, because of the length of the oil passages, the motor has tolerances that are 25% tighter on the mains then a Ford V-6/V-8. This necessitates the use of the 0-40, instead of 5-20. The downside of this, coupled with 12 qts of oil is that it takes 10 - 12 minutes to get the oil up to operating temperature. The "oil cooler" isn't an oil cooler, it's an oil heater. They run hot water over the oil to get it up to temp quicker. This because spirited driving on cold oil can cause oil shear failure (metal to metal contact). Oil takes longer to heat up than water, so just because your water temp gauge is in the normal range doesn't mean the oil is...

Getting a motor to make more HP isn't hard. Getting it to do it reliably and within emission specs is a little more challenging. Making money selling them is the hard part. Simply up the compression and spin faster... This article: http://www.wwiiaircraftperformance.org/merlin-love... is perhaps the best article on how an engine makes power, and what it takes to make more power. And since our V-12 is a 6L version of the 27L Merlin, I think it's a fun read.

What is amazing is that everything that we are using today in recip engines was invented and put into production between 1910 and 1940 with the exception of electronic fuel injection. Sodium filled valves, high octane fuel, tri-metal bearings, blowers, advanced metallurgy... This book by Robert Schailfer "Development of Aircraft Engines" is the best historical record - you can get it as a kindle book pretty cheap: https://play.google.com/books/reader?id=lo9TAAAAMA... and is worth owning if you like motors.

[MKnight702]

AM4884 said:

I did this because of the "Duratec myth" and the recognition that Ford Cosworth designed and built the motor.

Point of order, there is no such company as Ford Cosworth.

Cosworth was a separate company until 1998 when it was split into two, the racing division and PI Research (and for some stupid reason, the name Cosworth) was sold to Ford whilst they were supporting F1 and sold by them again in 2004. The manufacturing, castings and engineering division were sold to Audi and kept the name Cosworth Technology until they were sold to Mahle and lost the right to the name Cosworth, now they are called Mahle Powertrain.

The Aston Martin engine was designed by Cosworth Engineering, blocks and heads were cast by Cosworth Castings and the engines were machined and assembled by Cosworth Manufacturing.

[SL500UK]

And how did the 5.2 Litre Bi-Turbo V12 on the DB11 come about - was this developed by Aston?

[Emilio Largo]

Agent57 said:

After a bit of digging:

Engine Year Power (PS) Car
AM01 2001-2004 420 DB7 Vantage
AM02 2002-2003 441 DB7 GT
AM03 2001-2004 466 Vanquish
AM04 2004-2008 456 DB9
AM05 2005-2007 385 V8V
AM06 2004-2007 528 Vanquish S
AM07 2008-2009 426 V8V
AM08 2007-2012 517 DBS
AM09 2008-2012 476 DB9
AM10 2007-2012 517 V12 V
AM11 2012-2014 573 Vanquish 2
AM12
AM13
AM14 2009-2010 426 V8V
AM15 2011 437 V8VS
AM16 2010-2012 476 Rapide
AM17
AM18
AM19
AM20
AM21 2011-2012 760 One-77
AM22
AM23
AM24
AM25 2011-2012 496 Virage
AM26
AM27
AM28 2013 573 V12VS
AM29 2015 577 Vanquish2 / Rapide S

That´s very informative. Thank you, Agent57!

I wasn´t aware of this V12 nomenclature, only of the V8 engine types.

To the best of my knowledge both AM07 and AM14 are 4.7l V8. AM15 is the V8 Vantage S engine. So tells us your chart, too. I would therefore assume that AM14 was in use up to and including MY16 because in MY17 and 18 only V8 Vantage S/AMR were produced. Interesting seems to be when and why AM07 ended and AM14 began. Could it be that the difference was the introduction of primary and secondary catalysers instead of the single cat and the deletion of the EGR valve? That would have been around 2010 as far as I know?

Perhaps someone in the know can verify/falsify.

[KevinBird]

I understand the V12 is a doubled up Jaguar V6 that was originally a Porsche design for a front engine 911 replacement that was scrapped. Ford bought the design and it became the base for the Duratec series including the AM derivatives. Check out the Drive Nation podcast on resto mods for details

[Djit]

A tweaked AM28 in the GT12 I believe...

[KevinBird]

KevinBird said:

I understand the V12 is a doubled up Jaguar V6 that was originally a Porsche design for a front engine 911 replacement that was scrapped. Ford bought the design and it became the base for the Duratec series including the AM derivatives. Check out the Drive Nation podcast on resto mods for details https://podcasts.apple.com/gb/podcast/singer-alfah...

[stevewak]

For a definitive history of the creation of the AML/Ford V12 that debunks many of the myths I can recommend an article in the 2019 yearbook of the Aston Martin Heritage Trust, ASTON 21. In it, author Anthony Musci, one of the Ford engineers key to the project, describes the whole thing from start to finish.

FOMOCO, Duratec, Porsche, Cosworth and Aston themselves are all in there. I confess I am the editor of the yearbook, and I know that the piece was one of the most popular in that edition, not to mention well-read at Gaydon.

It's worth joining the Trust, a charitable organisation devoted to the history of the marque, not BBQs and pub meets. You can join, and buy back issues, here: https://www.amht.org.uk/

[CB07]

Doesn’t the V12 have origins as a Mazda/Porsche/Suzuki V6 modular engine?

I’m sure I also read somewhere it shares many design elements with the later V8 from the 928. Certainly looks similar to my eyes, particularly the intake detail.

Ford/Mazda used a development of this engine in the Probe. Cosworth subsequently helped Ford make the Duratec, the rest is history? First seen in its final form in the Ford Indigo concept.

https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/beautifullyengineer...

Or am I making it up using various nonsense from online journals

[paulrog1]

CB07 said:

Doesn’t the V12 have origins as a Mazda/Porsche/Suzuki V6 modular engine?

I’m sure I also read somewhere it shares many design elements with the later V8 from the 928. Certainly looks similar to my eyes, particularly the intake detail.

Ford/Mazda used a development of this engine in the Probe. Cosworth subsequently helped Ford make the Duratec, the rest is history? First seen in its final form in the Ford Indigo concept.

https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/beautifullyengineer...

Or am I making it up using various nonsense from online journals

I had a Ford Probe 2.5l V6 along time ago and I remember that it came from Mazda, from a Mazda 626.

The engine wasnt great, had a reputation of self destructing whilst driving round roundabouts as the oil circuit wasn't great at pushing the oil to all cylinders.

Plus massive immobiliser issues, so i got stranded a few times.

[Jon39]

MKnight702 said:

The Aston Martin engine was designed by Cosworth Engineering, blocks and heads were cast by Cosworth Castings and the engines were machined and assembled by Cosworth Manufacturing.

Are you referring to both the V8 and V12?

I think the initial batch of 4.3 V8 engines were possibly assembled by Cosworth. There has been mention of the first 1000 with forged rods and different bearing material, following early test failures.

Ford in Cologne (written the door was Aston Martin Engine Plant) for many years had the contract for assembly of the V8 and V12.
Obviously the V8 was eventually discontinued, but V12 assembly continued at that time in Cologne.

Before the reduced capacity turbocharged V12 was introduced for the DB11, Grainger & Worrall of Bridgenorth were awarded the contract for block castings. Later there was an announcement by AML that V12 engine assembly would be undertaken in the UK. That might have been because of the percentage of components rule. I don't know where the engine is being built now though.

[stevewak]

stevewak said:

For a definitive history of the creation of the AML/Ford V12 that debunks many of the myths I can recommend an article in the 2019 yearbook of the Aston Martin Heritage Trust, ASTON 21. In it, author Anthony Musci, one of the Ford engineers key to the project, describes the whole thing from start to finish.

FOMOCO, Duratec, Porsche, Cosworth and Aston themselves are all in there. I confess I am the editor of the yearbook, and I know that the piece was one of the most popular in that edition, not to mention well-read at Gaydon.

It's worth joining the Trust, a charitable organisation devoted to the history of the marque, not BBQs and pub meets. You can join, and buy back issues, here: https://www.amht.org.uk/

There is Harley-Davidson in there as well.

[Jon39]

A film about the V12 engine, that might be of interest.

[Calinours]

SL500UK said:

And how did the 5.2 Litre Bi-Turbo V12 on the DB11 come about - was this developed by Aston?

Yes. A fantastic achievement.

https://youtu.be/0IREtCujKJk