How is AM performing as a company?
Discussion
Hi All,
Given that we (Lotus) could be plunged into financial uncertainty for the umpteenth time and this time it could be with private, non-motor industry backers, I wondered how AM were doing as a company. Some people think that a company like/of the size of AM and Lotus need a motor industry giant to survive long term.
Given that we (Lotus) could be plunged into financial uncertainty for the umpteenth time and this time it could be with private, non-motor industry backers, I wondered how AM were doing as a company. Some people think that a company like/of the size of AM and Lotus need a motor industry giant to survive long term.
Interesting question...
AML plays cards very close to it's chest.
There are issues around engine supply contracts for V8 and V12 - for how long will FoMoCo keep the lines running in Cologne?
There has been no engine development work for some time but I have been told unofficially that there are extensive enhancements to the V12 engine for the 2012/2013 DBS 2 model (variable valve timing and anti-knock). That has not been confirmed by the factory.
AML can survive on the legacy of contracts signed during FoMoCo ownership but as those contracts expire the firm will find it hard to get suppliers to be so generous.
Sales - well, AML sales in mature markets are poor and list prices are never paid so margins have crumbled. AML is busy trying to expand into China and other growth markets but I am not sure what the sales are like - all statements I read are forward looking rather than printing trades done.
Works Service - I believe this has been sold off.
Prodrive involvement - seems to have stalled.
At a higher level, is there room in the world for small volume highly customised performance car companies that have their own engine, chassis and so on? Ulrich Bez does not think so - he stated that AML could end up as being a series of outsource contracts, some marketing, some sales and some product design. But there are so few suppliers of performance engines I think his vision is flawed - why would AMG or another firm allow a competitor to survive?
In short - short term is looking ok. Medium term looks worse unless there are lots of confidential projects to which we the public are not party. Long term is bleak...
AML plays cards very close to it's chest.
There are issues around engine supply contracts for V8 and V12 - for how long will FoMoCo keep the lines running in Cologne?
There has been no engine development work for some time but I have been told unofficially that there are extensive enhancements to the V12 engine for the 2012/2013 DBS 2 model (variable valve timing and anti-knock). That has not been confirmed by the factory.
AML can survive on the legacy of contracts signed during FoMoCo ownership but as those contracts expire the firm will find it hard to get suppliers to be so generous.
Sales - well, AML sales in mature markets are poor and list prices are never paid so margins have crumbled. AML is busy trying to expand into China and other growth markets but I am not sure what the sales are like - all statements I read are forward looking rather than printing trades done.
Works Service - I believe this has been sold off.
Prodrive involvement - seems to have stalled.
At a higher level, is there room in the world for small volume highly customised performance car companies that have their own engine, chassis and so on? Ulrich Bez does not think so - he stated that AML could end up as being a series of outsource contracts, some marketing, some sales and some product design. But there are so few suppliers of performance engines I think his vision is flawed - why would AMG or another firm allow a competitor to survive?
In short - short term is looking ok. Medium term looks worse unless there are lots of confidential projects to which we the public are not party. Long term is bleak...
I think there has to be a tie up with someone at some stage. Even Pagani use someone else's engines as a base.
Depending on how it's done, it could be great for both parties but it could be awful, particularly if the AM cars are simply reskins of someone else's existing car.
Having said that, whilst it's different because they are under the same parent, Lambo Gallardo & Audi's R8 survive well together despite being essentially the same car, as each manufacturer does very much manage to put their own stamp of individuality on the cars.
Going back to WS, my unserstanding is that whilst it is technically correct to say that it has been sold, the reality is that it's still owned by the same people and WS site under that ownership is to become the flagship model dealership
Medium term, my hope is that because discounting of AM is not as severe in some of the overseas markets and demand in places like China is through the roof, there are less cars made for the UK, which reduces the over supply problem here. That should make pricing much less of a black art - at the moment, the list prices are pretty meaningless and I don't think that helps anyone. The fact the company are producing a similar number of cars to a few years ago (if not more), but less than half for the UK than a few years ago, is very positive for the future
Depending on how it's done, it could be great for both parties but it could be awful, particularly if the AM cars are simply reskins of someone else's existing car.
Having said that, whilst it's different because they are under the same parent, Lambo Gallardo & Audi's R8 survive well together despite being essentially the same car, as each manufacturer does very much manage to put their own stamp of individuality on the cars.
Going back to WS, my unserstanding is that whilst it is technically correct to say that it has been sold, the reality is that it's still owned by the same people and WS site under that ownership is to become the flagship model dealership
Medium term, my hope is that because discounting of AM is not as severe in some of the overseas markets and demand in places like China is through the roof, there are less cars made for the UK, which reduces the over supply problem here. That should make pricing much less of a black art - at the moment, the list prices are pretty meaningless and I don't think that helps anyone. The fact the company are producing a similar number of cars to a few years ago (if not more), but less than half for the UK than a few years ago, is very positive for the future
On that DBS point John, I'm still a little confused. I do know there is 'a new DBS' due OTR late 2012, perhaps early 2013
But I don't understand whether that is the 'new new DBS', or a facelift (a la Virage to DB9) in anticipation of the proper 'all new DBS' which some of the press refer to as not being here until 2014ish
I guess a lot comes down to interpretation of the words 'new' and 'facelift' but my guess (which is all it is) is that we will get the properly all(ish) new DBS in 2012/13 - you may know more John ? I am also guessing they may even change the name to a new (or old) 'V.......' name
But I don't understand whether that is the 'new new DBS', or a facelift (a la Virage to DB9) in anticipation of the proper 'all new DBS' which some of the press refer to as not being here until 2014ish
I guess a lot comes down to interpretation of the words 'new' and 'facelift' but my guess (which is all it is) is that we will get the properly all(ish) new DBS in 2012/13 - you may know more John ? I am also guessing they may even change the name to a new (or old) 'V.......' name
jonby said:
On that DBS point John, I'm still a little confused. I do know there is 'a new DBS' due OTR late 2012, perhaps early 2013
But I don't understand whether that is the 'new new DBS', or a facelift (a la Virage to DB9) in anticipation of the proper 'all new DBS' which some of the press refer to as not being here until 2014ish
I guess a lot comes down to interpretation of the words 'new' and 'facelift' but my guess (which is all it is) is that we will get the properly all(ish) new DBS in 2012/13 - you may know more John ? I am also guessing they may even change the name to a new (or old) 'V.......' name
From what I've heard it's going to be a £200k+, 600 BHP, new design. Apparently it's going to be a bit smaller than the current car too. Not sure how true that is, but some spy shots of it testing here - http://www.roadandtrack.com/future-cars/spy-photos...But I don't understand whether that is the 'new new DBS', or a facelift (a la Virage to DB9) in anticipation of the proper 'all new DBS' which some of the press refer to as not being here until 2014ish
I guess a lot comes down to interpretation of the words 'new' and 'facelift' but my guess (which is all it is) is that we will get the properly all(ish) new DBS in 2012/13 - you may know more John ? I am also guessing they may even change the name to a new (or old) 'V.......' name
Will be fascinating to see. Makes more sense if a little smaller - it becomes more of a (at risk of being shot down for heresy !) Vanquish replacement
I remember seeing spyshots of what I think was the same car on teamspeed and commenting that the shut lines for the boot are completely different (in relation to including the numberplate), which suggests more than a mid life refresh
Dr BEz at that lunch recently is where the 600bhp rumour comes from, as opposed to the commonly held consensus speculation of c. 550bhp. I'm not sure how reliable it therefore is - I am convinced for instance that they will make more than the 100 roadsters he suggested, not because of any inside info, but simply because I don't see how it otherwise stacks up - they will struggle to sell them if they charge a huge premium and at a modest premium, why not make at least 250+
I remember seeing spyshots of what I think was the same car on teamspeed and commenting that the shut lines for the boot are completely different (in relation to including the numberplate), which suggests more than a mid life refresh
Dr BEz at that lunch recently is where the 600bhp rumour comes from, as opposed to the commonly held consensus speculation of c. 550bhp. I'm not sure how reliable it therefore is - I am convinced for instance that they will make more than the 100 roadsters he suggested, not because of any inside info, but simply because I don't see how it otherwise stacks up - they will struggle to sell them if they charge a huge premium and at a modest premium, why not make at least 250+
The simple issue here is that more power = more money.
The Vanquish S produced more power due to a fancy head design and inlet manifold system.
For DBS they worked out how to generate almost as much power without the expensive head & manifold which meant more profit per unit. Remember - Vanquish cost a heck of a lot more to build per unit versus DBS. But DBS appears to have been (back of fag packet) way more profitable.
So - is 600bhp from a 6.0 litre V12 engine doable? Of course it is! But you cannot get more than 8000rpm out of the engine since the ECU cannot handle it. New ECU is expensive. You'd need better induction systems and a better exhaust. All problems that can be overcome but the cheap way to do it is simply VVT and some inlet work and go for 550bhp-ish.
Ulrich does seem to exist on a slightly parallel dimension? Mr Aston Martin? Please! Mr right place at the right time when Ford were throwing money at the premier automotive group firms!!
The Vanquish S produced more power due to a fancy head design and inlet manifold system.
For DBS they worked out how to generate almost as much power without the expensive head & manifold which meant more profit per unit. Remember - Vanquish cost a heck of a lot more to build per unit versus DBS. But DBS appears to have been (back of fag packet) way more profitable.
So - is 600bhp from a 6.0 litre V12 engine doable? Of course it is! But you cannot get more than 8000rpm out of the engine since the ECU cannot handle it. New ECU is expensive. You'd need better induction systems and a better exhaust. All problems that can be overcome but the cheap way to do it is simply VVT and some inlet work and go for 550bhp-ish.
Ulrich does seem to exist on a slightly parallel dimension? Mr Aston Martin? Please! Mr right place at the right time when Ford were throwing money at the premier automotive group firms!!
JohnG1 said:
The simple issue here is that more power = more money.
The Vanquish S produced more power due to a fancy head design and inlet manifold system.
For DBS they worked out how to generate almost as much power without the expensive head & manifold which meant more profit per unit. Remember - Vanquish cost a heck of a lot more to build per unit versus DBS. But DBS appears to have been (back of fag packet) way more profitable.
So - is 600bhp from a 6.0 litre V12 engine doable? Of course it is! But you cannot get more than 8000rpm out of the engine since the ECU cannot handle it. New ECU is expensive. You'd need better induction systems and a better exhaust. All problems that can be overcome but the cheap way to do it is simply VVT and some inlet work and go for 550bhp-ish.
Ulrich does seem to exist on a slightly parallel dimension? Mr Aston Martin? Please! Mr right place at the right time when Ford were throwing money at the premier automotive group firms!!
I seem to remember hearing from someone that they need a new ECU system shortly anyway, something to do with a material in there that soon wouldn't meet current safety regs, could it have been lead ? Developing new one is as you say, very expensive, potentially millions. A good, but perhaps less obvious, example of the need for a tie-in with someone, where something like that could be aquired under license or similar for a fraction of the cost without ruining the integrity of donor's or donee's carsThe Vanquish S produced more power due to a fancy head design and inlet manifold system.
For DBS they worked out how to generate almost as much power without the expensive head & manifold which meant more profit per unit. Remember - Vanquish cost a heck of a lot more to build per unit versus DBS. But DBS appears to have been (back of fag packet) way more profitable.
So - is 600bhp from a 6.0 litre V12 engine doable? Of course it is! But you cannot get more than 8000rpm out of the engine since the ECU cannot handle it. New ECU is expensive. You'd need better induction systems and a better exhaust. All problems that can be overcome but the cheap way to do it is simply VVT and some inlet work and go for 550bhp-ish.
Ulrich does seem to exist on a slightly parallel dimension? Mr Aston Martin? Please! Mr right place at the right time when Ford were throwing money at the premier automotive group firms!!
Mercedes/AMG engines do seem the most obvious choice medium term
jonby said:
I am convinced for instance that they will make more than the 100 roadsters he suggested, not because of any inside info, but simply because I don't see how it otherwise stacks up - they will struggle to sell them if they charge a huge premium and at a modest premium, why not make at least 250+
You maybe right but I presume they are making money on the Zagoto's even with the extra cost & development. V12 roadster mule was built a while ago using already available parts.I'm still in the Toyota tie up camp
The LFA chassis & engine need a premium brand to recoup the investment
AM don't have the funds to do it all themselves. All the other small scale sports car manufacturers have a tie up for engines as AM do with Ford at moment.
Aston Martin has got to be one of the best brands on the planet, and their current range have got to be among, if not actually, the most beautiful motor vehicles you can buy, with plenty of life left in them.
Any prestige car manufacturer needs forward plans, but I really do not think that there are grounds for excessive pessimism just now. What at this moment do they need? Not a new DBS actually, but a greater reputation for paintwork finish and reliability.
As to becoming an outsourced design company,
, so much of the Aston schtick has to do with British craftsmanship, that I don't believe that they can be successful without a strong element of that in the mix. What I do think has become clear since the Ford sell off, is that not only does a specialist car company need access to serious capital, it needs access, in one form or another, to a big automotive resource base. In that way the cars can be as technically advanced as they look. Whether that is Toyota, Mercedes or Ford in some way, doesn't really matter to me. Either way, there will always be Aston Martin, just as there will always be Jaguar and Bentley. These brands are immortal.
Any prestige car manufacturer needs forward plans, but I really do not think that there are grounds for excessive pessimism just now. What at this moment do they need? Not a new DBS actually, but a greater reputation for paintwork finish and reliability.
As to becoming an outsourced design company,
, so much of the Aston schtick has to do with British craftsmanship, that I don't believe that they can be successful without a strong element of that in the mix. What I do think has become clear since the Ford sell off, is that not only does a specialist car company need access to serious capital, it needs access, in one form or another, to a big automotive resource base. In that way the cars can be as technically advanced as they look. Whether that is Toyota, Mercedes or Ford in some way, doesn't really matter to me. Either way, there will always be Aston Martin, just as there will always be Jaguar and Bentley. These brands are immortal. cardigankid said:
As to becoming an outsourced design company, , so much of the Aston schtick has to do with British craftsmanship, that I don't believe that they can be successful without a strong element of that in the mix.
, so much of the Aston schtick has to do with British craftsmanship, that I don't believe that they can be successful without a strong element of that in the mix. Rolls Royce and Bentley made it work.
Marcos, Noble and TVR didn't.
cardigankid said:
Aston Martin has got to be one of the best brands on the planet, and their current range have got to be among, if not actually, the most beautiful motor vehicles you can buy, with plenty of life left in them.
Any prestige car manufacturer needs forward plans, but I really do not think that there are grounds for excessive pessimism just now. What at this moment do they need? Not a new DBS actually, but a greater reputation for paintwork finish and reliability.
As to becoming an outsourced design company, , so much of the Aston schtick has to do with British craftsmanship, that I don't believe that they can be successful without a strong element of that in the mix. What I do think has become clear since the Ford sell off, is that not only does a specialist car company need access to serious capital, it needs access, in one form or another, to a big automotive resource base. In that way the cars can be as technically advanced as they look. Whether that is Toyota, Mercedes or Ford in some way, doesn't really matter to me. Either way, there will always be Aston Martin, just as there will always be Jaguar and Bentley. These brands are immortal.
Their reputation for reliability may not be great, but the reality is that it is infinitely better than a few yrs ago and actually now remarkably good for a firm producing that volumeAny prestige car manufacturer needs forward plans, but I really do not think that there are grounds for excessive pessimism just now. What at this moment do they need? Not a new DBS actually, but a greater reputation for paintwork finish and reliability.
As to becoming an outsourced design company,
, so much of the Aston schtick has to do with British craftsmanship, that I don't believe that they can be successful without a strong element of that in the mix. What I do think has become clear since the Ford sell off, is that not only does a specialist car company need access to serious capital, it needs access, in one form or another, to a big automotive resource base. In that way the cars can be as technically advanced as they look. Whether that is Toyota, Mercedes or Ford in some way, doesn't really matter to me. Either way, there will always be Aston Martin, just as there will always be Jaguar and Bentley. These brands are immortal. mikey k said:
You maybe right but I presume they are making money on the Zagoto's even with the extra cost & development. V12 roadster mule was built a while ago using already available parts.
I'm still in the Toyota tie up camp
The LFA chassis & engine need a premium brand to recoup the investment
AM don't have the funds to do it all themselves. All the other small scale sports car manufacturers have a tie up for engines as AM do with Ford at moment.
That's my point - they are making very few Zagatos but making money by charging £400k for themI'm still in the Toyota tie up camp
The LFA chassis & engine need a premium brand to recoup the investment
AM don't have the funds to do it all themselves. All the other small scale sports car manufacturers have a tie up for engines as AM do with Ford at moment.
I don't see the roadster selling at 200k+ (would people really pay more for one than say a DBS, 458 or MP4-12C spider ?). The Zag has that huge premium becuase it is so different to the rest of the range, but the V12VR will most likely look identical to our S roadsters, other than ceramic brakes, different wheels and CF bonnet vents
So if it is to be priced at say c. £150-160k, i.e. V12 coupe with 'normal soft top premium', why would they only make 100, as they could a) sell more at that price and b) recover, however minor, more of the development costs, if spread over a larger number of cars
I am one of a numebr on here who has been waiting a long time for a V12VR but I won't pay say 120k+ to trade in my almost new S for a V12VR, when for the same money I could (insert a myriad of options now) for instance get a 458 scud to sit alongside the S
George H said:
Noble didn't? I thought Noble are doing quite well, with plenty of orders for the M600 apparently.
Morgan and Ginetta also seem to be doing quite well.
I seem to remember Noble have changed form several times in the last few years and are not actually the same companyMorgan and Ginetta also seem to be doing quite well.
Rolls & Bentley kind of make the point, being owned by two large German firms with great reputations for quality. Ridiculous when both firm's cars are based on 'ordinary cars' built by their parent companies, particularly the Bentley continentals which don't hide their A8 links that well, but for all the derision that brings from some (including me), they all seem to sell well.
Morgan & Ginetta are doing relatively well, but presumably Ginetta will almost certainly always be a very low volume manufacturer with the financial instability that comes with same (I'm guessing - I know nothing about their financials) whilst Morgan is a very singular brand and all credit to them for sticking to the traditional Morgan values, but it means their cars will never compete with others on price/performance/quality and always be a quirky choice. But Aston owners I think expect their cars to be a little closer to the mainstream supercar competition - take the comments on AM sat nav as a case in point
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