Aston Martin - If you were CEO..........

[steveatesh]

Ok, Sunday afternoon, most of you will have read the papers by now and no doubt experiencing a warm glow if you can see your car outside. If you are like me you will take an interest in the motoring world in general and the latest stuff coming out of Germany and JLR too, as well as other even more exotic makes. Having seen what JLR are releasing in the near future and having just read about the latest 911, I can't help wondering how AM are going to compete without a parent company or another partner to help development, redesign and new competitive models.

Its apparent that there are some on this board who are far more knowledgeable than me about the company, so, if you were suddenly CEO of AM, what would you do to ensure the company grows and remains or improves competitiveness over the next few years? Would you for example, seek a partner to help with engine development, and if so who and why? Would you prefer to go it alone maybe and hunker down into even smaller niche market? Would you seek a buyout by a large car maker (again!) to help with R+D? Would you keep the basic AM look (Porsche seem to for their 911 cars and it works for them) or a fresh design based on new underpinnings? Or would you do something else?

Any views or insightful guesses on how AM can thrive with the competetion we are seeing coming through?

[JohnG1]

Short answer:

Jump back into bed with Ford.
Ask Toyota to partner
Ask Mercedes to partner

All other options will leave the firm to die slowly. AML cannot generate enough profit to develop a new engine. Simple as that.
FoMoCo have been super generous to let AML still have access to the V12 and V8.
Longer version to follow if warranted...

[RemainAllHoof]

I would wonder how much a competitor Jaguar is. If the answer is "not very much" because Jaguar coupes are cheaper by at least 30% (IIRC), I would think about working with Land Rover to produce a proper luxury performance 4x4 to rival the Cayenne Turbo. Then I'd cut my left arm off and bludgeon myself to death with the bleeding stump.

[mikey k]

RemainAllHoof said:

I would wonder how much a competitor Jaguar is. If the answer is "not very much" because Jaguar coupes are cheaper by at least 30% (IIRC), I would think about working with Land Rover to produce a proper luxury performance 4x4 to rival the Cayenne Turbo. Then I'd cut my left arm off and bludgeon myself to death with the bleeding stump.

Won't happen (I don't think )
As I understand it AM and JLR fell out over using the 5.0 sc'ed engine JLR are doing so well with.
First thing that needs sorting is a class leading replacement for the VH platform.
The rest will follow from that.

Do a deal with McLaren?
I think it will be Toyota

[LordBretSinclair]

steveatesh said:

Ok, Sunday afternoon, most of you will have read the papers by now and no doubt experiencing a warm glow if you can see your car outside.

On a lovely day down here in the south west I was too busy out and about driving the car rather than just looking at it

[Mr Aston Martin]

Doesn't the deal for engines with Ford expire in 2013?

Arguably if the deal is extended then we should have cause for concern as the company position will only get weaker. Is any investment to be welcomed? Look at emerging markets and the distinct difference in taste and values. Anyone for the new FFRR? Bling is not AML but if a product doesn't evolve commercially what's left. A niche brand such as Morgan?


Conversely would any global manufacturer simply invest and leave the brand alone? Realistically travelling this route and the best outcome we can expect is Bentley-Rolls Royce.....

IMHO.


Anyway won't we all be driving around in the equivalent of an electric milk float?

[steveatesh]

LordBretSinclair said:

On a lovely day down here in the south west I was too busy out and about driving the car rather than just looking at it

well on a cold bright windy day in the north east I'd been to check the pigeon loft out of course before reading the paper!

I can see Merc or Mclaren well enough but how likely is a partnership with Toyota? Apart from the Cygnet thing they seem an unlikely candidate?

[mikey k]

Mr Aston Martin said:

Doesn't the deal for engines with Ford expire in 2013?

Arguably if the deal is extended then we should have cause for concern as the company position will only get weaker. Is any investment to be welcomed? Look at emerging markets and the distinct difference in taste and values. Anyone for the new FFRR? Bling is not AML but if a product doesn't evolve commercially what's left. A niche brand such as Morgan?

Conversely would any global manufacturer simply invest and leave the brand alone? Realistically travelling this route and the best outcome we can expect is Bentley-Rolls Royce.....

Engine deal was extended to 2016 with option to buy
http://www.advfn.com/nyse/StockNews.asp?stocknews=...

Lotus went to Proton
VAG went for Bentley
BMW got Rolls Royce
Mclaren did it on their own, but look to be angling to sell the technology for mass production

Who might go for an "uber" brand name?
Toyota have some good engines (Lotus already use their V6) and they need a "brand" to really sell stuff like the LFA with credibility

[RemainAllHoof]

mikey k said:

Won't happen (I don't think )
As I understand it AM and JLR fell out over using the 5.0 sc'ed engine JLR are doing so well with.
First thing that needs sorting is a class leading replacement for the VH platform.
The rest will follow from that.

Do a deal with McLaren?
I think it will be Toyota

Fair enough. I was only going on the Britishness of such a deal. They could get components from another source, of course.

[mjk1]

My ideal senario would be for BMW to buy AM. They arguably have the most advanced engines in the world and have done a fantastic job with Mini and Rolls-Royce. AM would fit nicely between these two brands. AM are already behind their competitors in terms of technological advance. This will just get worse without access to a large parent companies knowledge. There is also the forthcoming emissions legislation to consider.

[Zod]

mjk1 said:

My ideal senario would be for BMW to buy AM. They arguably have the most advanced engines in the world and have done a fantastic job with Mini and Rolls-Royce. AM would fit nicely between these two brands. AM are already behind their competitors in terms of technological advance. This will just get worse without access to a large parent companies knowledge. There is also the forthcoming emissions legislation to consider.

I agree. BMW is a perfect fit - it needs a prestige sports car brand and it has the world's best engines and engine designers. Bez knows the people, so a deal should be achievable.

[steveatesh]

mikey k said:

Engine deal was extended to 2016 with option to buy
http://www.advfn.com/nyse/StockNews.asp?stocknews=...

Who might go for an "uber" brand name?
Toyota have some good engines (Lotus already use their V6) and they need a "brand" to really sell stuff like the LFA with credibility

So is Toyota the one you would put your money on Mikey?
And would you say there is a biggest possibility that this will happen than AM trying to stand alone and possibly going down the pan?
That article you linked to had Bez being upbeat about opening in other markets, especially China, but I think they'll struggle trying to go it alone.

Edited by steveatesh on Monday 28th November 00:13

[George H]

mikey k said:

I think it will be Toyota

As much as I hope you are wrong, I think you will be right. Personally, I'm hoping they partner with Mercedes.

Unfortunately, there are so many ominous donations going on from AM to Toyota, it's clear Dr. Bez wants a partnership.

If they join with Toyota, my DB9 will be going straight up for sale, and I wont buy from the brand again. My money will be going on either a used SLS roadster, or a Lamborghini LP560-4 Spyder. I refuse to buy from a Japanese or American manufacturer.

[Speedraser]

George H said:

I refuse to buy from a Japanese or American manufacturer.

That the DB9 was designed, and built for several years, under Ford's ownership didn't stop you. Would you buy a DB9 that was built the day Ford sold AM, but not one that was built the day before?

Personally, I hope that if someone buys AM that they are as good to it as Ford was. Ford gave them money and let them build their own fantastic cars, and cars that were not variations of Fords -- after the DB7, no platform sharing. To me, a unique platform is absolutely essential to an Aston being an Aston, no matter what Bez says. Also, I have little interest in an Aston that simply adopts another company's engines, no matter how good they might be. That doesn't mean it must be bespoke from the ground up -- the current V8 and V12 are, IMO, sufficiently unique-to-Aston engines. The AMG 6.2 V8 is an awesome engine, but I wouldn't want it in an AM -- unless the AM engine is thoroughly differentiated from it.

Toyota's only product with Aston is the vile Cygnet, so I hold zero hope that Toyota is the right owner/partner. I just don't see Toyota being a benevolent supporter of AM and leaving Aston to do its own thing. If I'm wrong, then I'd be all for it. That's the only thing they could do to make amends for their part in the Cygnet.

Astons still have strong and unique characters, and sharing important things like platforms and engines will dilute that -- no question. As more and more car companies share more and more platforms, engines, etc., cars become more and more like every other car. To do that to Aston Martin would destroy what makes AM interesting, special and desirable.

Ford showed that a large manufacturer can do right by a small car company.

[Neil1300R]

Nothing to stop Ford buying it back. Ford needed cash at the time, but now need a Premium / Prestige brand.
With or without Ford / AN Other partner, AML need a luxury 4x4. Its what saved Porsche. I know lots of people will hate the idea but there is a huge market for them in the Far East / Eastern Europe/ China etc. Can be badged a Lagonda - there's even been a test mule (ugly as sin but nothing that couldn't be modified).
Then need a modified V12 with modern technology such as anti-knock sensors.
Will need a smaller capacity forced induction engine, or if they have sense a modified V8 with forced induction.

[mikey k]

BMW do not need the AM "brand" they already have RR and M Division, AM would bring nothing in technology for them, only a brand and a relatively small market share. Why would they?
Merc may be attracted to the brand but do pretty well with AMG and don't they have a share in Brabus? Same arguement as BMW but less so.
No idea if Bez has any "relationships" with these Germans

Toyota have been trying for a while to build a credible prestige brand, the Lexus LFA is up there with the MP4-12C for innovation but just doesn't have the credibility to command £350k Bez is already making charitable donations to Toyota's disaster funds and is committend to IQ's for a while.

For me AM need 3 things in this order;
R&D investment to replace VH (or the technology on licence)
"modern" engines
Capital to grow the business

Who has these and is likely to want to provide them
I'd like to see JLR own them but I've been told that will never happen.

[Neil1300R]

George H said:

I refuse to buy from a Japanese or American manufacturer.

Quite happy with an Arab manufacturer though?

[Zod]

mikey, BMW has a fundamental issue in that it cannot sell sports cars at £100k plus under the M brand, any more than it can sell luxury cars at that level. For luxury cars, it has Rolls-Royce. It needs an equivalent in the sports car space.

[JohnG1]

Zod said:

mikey, BMW has a fundamental issue in that it cannot sell sports cars at £100k plus under the M brand, any more than it can sell luxury cars at that level. For luxury cars, it has Rolls-Royce. It needs an equivalent in the sports car space.

Spot on market segmentation analysis.

But....

The 4.4 V8 from the M3 GTS would be a lovely swap for the 4.7 V8 in the Vantage. The 5.0 V10 from the old M5 would be great in the DBS & V12V and the 6.6 V12 from the barges and RR would be snuggle into Rapide and Virage (DB9) nicely.

Only problem is that BMW are busy getting rid of the high revving M engines and turbocharging everything. Which does not really fit in with the AML ethos in my view.

If BMW M division was allowed to buy into AML and keep the old V8, V10, V12 engines on more than a care & maintenance basis then oh yes, bring it on.

Me, I would love Toyota to buy into AML. That V10 from the LF-A is a thing of engineering beauty (to my untrained eyes).

[Zod]

I think the LFA engine might cause pricing problems though.....