mp4-12c vs V12V
Discussion
By Harvey Nicks - going to be having a look at an mp4-12c.
Totally different car? Or very similar. Engine designed by Ricardo.
Gearbox by Graziano
Brakes by AP
Vs
Engine designed by Cosworth.
Gearbox by Graziano
Brakes by Brembo
As in, a systems engineering and integration project rather than clean-sheet in house design and build.
Write-up later...
Totally different car? Or very similar. Engine designed by Ricardo.
Gearbox by Graziano
Brakes by AP
Vs
Engine designed by Cosworth.
Gearbox by Graziano
Brakes by Brembo
As in, a systems engineering and integration project rather than clean-sheet in house design and build.
Write-up later...
JohnG1 said:
By Harvey Nicks - going to be having a look at an mp4-12c.
Totally different car? Or very similar. Engine designed by Ricardo.
Gearbox by Graziano
Brakes by AP
Vs
Engine designed by Cosworth.
Gearbox by Graziano
Brakes by Brembo
As in, a systems engineering and integration project rather than clean-sheet in house design and build.
Write-up later...
I predict - a technical showcase and a collection of all that is great and good in a road going race car. Totally different car? Or very similar. Engine designed by Ricardo.
Gearbox by Graziano
Brakes by AP
Vs
Engine designed by Cosworth.
Gearbox by Graziano
Brakes by Brembo
As in, a systems engineering and integration project rather than clean-sheet in house design and build.
Write-up later...
But no real soul and no real use in the moden world. If such a thing can be, much like the GTR, it's... too fast.
I think I read that they have an issue with the rear window blowing at 120mph if you have a window open!
As above, I've also seen a lot of reviews that say its technically brilliant but a little soulless. They are fast as hell though, it's hard to imagine a car that fast not raising your heart rate a bit. I think I'll stick with the V12V though
As above, I've also seen a lot of reviews that say its technically brilliant but a little soulless. They are fast as hell though, it's hard to imagine a car that fast not raising your heart rate a bit. I think I'll stick with the V12V though
We have become infatuated with power, speed and outright reliability.
As a result we are building cars with no character.
We all think we want perfection, but subliminally it is the faults we cherish, that make us fond of a car.
I know this sounds perverse, but think of all the cars (or even people!) you've most loved. Think of the faults, and whether they killed the experience, or in some odd way enhanced it.
As a result we are building cars with no character.
We all think we want perfection, but subliminally it is the faults we cherish, that make us fond of a car.
I know this sounds perverse, but think of all the cars (or even people!) you've most loved. Think of the faults, and whether they killed the experience, or in some odd way enhanced it.
JohnG1 said:
And the answer is...
Ask me on the 25th. Had to book to go to Dunsfold or is it Dunsford - where they do Top Gear and have a try there. Given my recent driving record it's probably safer than driving on a road....
Beautifully made car - love the carbon fibre tub
Looking forward to the write-up - I think there is something special about low volume cars of this nature, I am sure it is a sharp knife, but would surprised if it was souless. Make sure you get some pics (if you are allowed). Ask me on the 25th. Had to book to go to Dunsfold or is it Dunsford - where they do Top Gear and have a try there. Given my recent driving record it's probably safer than driving on a road....
Beautifully made car - love the carbon fibre tub
Edit to sort spelling.
Edited by krisdelta on Saturday 5th November 13:53
George H said:
I love the carbon tub. The engineering in it is sublime. Respect it hugely but I still do not lust after one. At least it's a British car to be proud of
Each dealer has to buy a skeleton set of running gear - tub, front alumium section, rear aluminium section plus gearbox and engine, suspension, wheels, steering column and on seat. It's so light to push and pull back and forth.The London branch also has an F1 car Ayrton Senna drove. Insured for £50m according to the salesman...
I'm sorry but someone has to take a stand against this absurd Clarksonism regarding a car's 'soul'. Call it endearing imperfections if you must (in reality there are very few flaws that actually are endearing) anything but 'soul'. JC has to entertain for a living and is afforded some artistic licence. No-one here has that excuse.
MP4-12C is a car I'd love to try for myself, however it is a league above the V12 Vantage in terms of performance, price, technology and I would imagine running costs too. Few who could actually afford one would chose a V12 Vantage instead. Good for anyone that does mind you, the V12V is a very special car and offers a taste of true exotica at a more accessible price.
As for me I'd have to drive an MP4-12C but it would be a thrill just to have a McLaren in the garage, let alone a car with such feral performance on the road. However I'd never take a V8 over a V12 given the choice. I think I'd pay the extra for an Aventador for that reason alone. It's nothing to do with 'soul', 12 cylinders = lots of moving parts which makes for a mechanical symphony, inherent smoothness and a range of noises unlike anything with fewer cylinders as a result. Given the rarity of 12 cylinder engines these days it makes the experience all the more special. If the McLaren sounds like most flat plane crank V8s ie like a 4 cylinder than that's one area I'm sure I'd prefer the sound of the V12 Vantage. I'm a dinosaur so I prefer a manual box too. For anyone else who has no issue with either the V8 or the paddleshifts I'd quite understand why they'd choose the McLaren. On paper at least, it's not really a fair comparison.
MP4-12C is a car I'd love to try for myself, however it is a league above the V12 Vantage in terms of performance, price, technology and I would imagine running costs too. Few who could actually afford one would chose a V12 Vantage instead. Good for anyone that does mind you, the V12V is a very special car and offers a taste of true exotica at a more accessible price.
As for me I'd have to drive an MP4-12C but it would be a thrill just to have a McLaren in the garage, let alone a car with such feral performance on the road. However I'd never take a V8 over a V12 given the choice. I think I'd pay the extra for an Aventador for that reason alone. It's nothing to do with 'soul', 12 cylinders = lots of moving parts which makes for a mechanical symphony, inherent smoothness and a range of noises unlike anything with fewer cylinders as a result. Given the rarity of 12 cylinder engines these days it makes the experience all the more special. If the McLaren sounds like most flat plane crank V8s ie like a 4 cylinder than that's one area I'm sure I'd prefer the sound of the V12 Vantage. I'm a dinosaur so I prefer a manual box too. For anyone else who has no issue with either the V8 or the paddleshifts I'd quite understand why they'd choose the McLaren. On paper at least, it's not really a fair comparison.
The Pits said:
I'm sorry but someone has to take a stand against this absurd Clarksonism regarding a car's 'soul'. Call it endearing imperfections if you must (in reality there are very few flaws that actually are endearing) anything but 'soul'. JC has to entertain for a living and is afforded some artistic licence. No-one here has that excuse.
Er, well, what's a soul anyway? If someone wants to say that an MP4-12C does not have soul whereas a V12V does then could you help a simple chap like me by explaining what's a soul?Moving on...
I don't agree with your point about relative prices influencing a purchase decision. Once you are looking at £150k for a V12V versus £198k for an MP4-12C it is not, for me, about which one I can afford and buying the most expensive within a budget. It's about which one I want.
In another thread I wrote something along the lines of:
The V12V is a car for the gentleman thug.
The V12V is a car for the gentleman brute.
What I want to understand is:
The MP4-12C is a car for whom?
My point is that the McLaren is in a different league in terms of price and performance. It outperforms the V12 Vantage as a result, but you have to pay handsomely for that. The Mclaren, along with the 458, is not within what I consider to be a reasonable amount of money to spend on a toy. With nearly new V12v's available for half their price the gulf in cost is enormous. In a hypothetical world where they were the same price few would chose the V12 Vantage. You'd have to put a really high value on a V12 and a manual box because the McLaren is far superior by virtually every other objective measure.
Before they announced the price I thought the McLaren might be an option for me but at over £200k with a few options, well over £200k with good spec, it is far beyond my reach. At twice the price of a barely used V12 Vantage the comparison makes about as much sense as Veyron vs V12V.
If you're in a position to stretch to the McLaren then everything you need to know will be answered by driving one. On paper it's an easy win for the McLaren.
Before they announced the price I thought the McLaren might be an option for me but at over £200k with a few options, well over £200k with good spec, it is far beyond my reach. At twice the price of a barely used V12 Vantage the comparison makes about as much sense as Veyron vs V12V.
If you're in a position to stretch to the McLaren then everything you need to know will be answered by driving one. On paper it's an easy win for the McLaren.
JohnG1 said:
What I want to understand is:
The MP4-12C is a car for whom?
I think the 12C is also a car for the gentleman. It does not shout like a Ferrari does, that is the whole point.The MP4-12C is a car for whom?
But the McLaren is not so nostalgic as the V12V.
A Typhoon fighter pilot might pick the 12C. Like the aircraft, the 12C is brutal but very hi-tec.
The V12V is more old school.
Both are majestic.
JohnG1 said:
The MP4-12C is a car for whom?
The same kind of onwer who wants a GTR but has waaaay more money, I think it's an outright speed and performace thing - with a better badge (sorry vpr!). It's a technical showcase and a terrific achievement. But if I had £200k+ for a car, it would be the Ferrari 458 Spider. Like you say, nostalgia is a huge part of motoring for me. I love McLaren's race cars, never coveted the road-F1 though.Driving round Goodwood last weekend in a open, green Aston... well it doesn't get any better than that.
Not hard to dream... That's me that is
Edited by yeti on Sunday 6th November 11:46
McLaren and V12V have one thing in common, they are both for people who have less to prove than the shouty Ferrari, most of which are ordered in notice me dammit bright red. For the money the McLaren is understated, although your average punter probably thinks it's a ferraroghini. The V12v is very understated because to all but the most observant it's just another V8 Vantage, therefore a rubbish return on your investment if showing off is a priority. Though I went through a major Ferrari phase, myself I now consider them to be crass, obvious and not especially good looking anymore.
JohnG1 said:
And the answer is...
Ask me on the 25th. Had to book to go to Dunsfold or is it Dunsford - where they do Top Gear and have a try there. Given my recent driving record it's probably safer than driving on a road....
Beautifully made car - love the carbon fibre tub
Have you advised them of your recent history with cars Ask me on the 25th. Had to book to go to Dunsfold or is it Dunsford - where they do Top Gear and have a try there. Given my recent driving record it's probably safer than driving on a road....
Beautifully made car - love the carbon fibre tub
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