Flappy paddles on a V12V?
Discussion
I have had my V12V for a few months now. I love the car and still feel a bit giddy whenever I drive it. In many ways, I think the car is perfect and I wouldn't have Aston change a thing. However, I must admit that a part of me is beginning to wonder what the car would be like with a semiautomatic transmission. I know the very thought of this is anathema to many of you, but I can't escape the feeling that I could probably drive the car more effectively and faster with some flappy paddles. I readily admit that part of the issue relates to my own limitations as a driver. Although I consider myself to be a good driver I am by no means a pro. It's just that the engine revs so quickly through the gears when you get on it that I think a faster changing gearbox would make a difference for everyone.
Have any of the other V12V owners out there had the same thought? FWIW, I enjoy "rowing my own" and I have no plans to get rid of this car (possibly ever). I'm just curious if other V12V owners have ever felt this way.
Have any of the other V12V owners out there had the same thought? FWIW, I enjoy "rowing my own" and I have no plans to get rid of this car (possibly ever). I'm just curious if other V12V owners have ever felt this way.
George H said:
I'm not sure if the Zagato V12V has the auto gearbox, but I know the racing one does - I believe the same one as the One-77.
I'd love a TT2 V12V, but I suspect I'm in the minority on that.
I don't think the OP is talking about an automatic like the TT2. I believe he means the Sport Shift as on the V8 (electromechanicaly shifted manual transmission). But I have been known to be wrong...I'd love a TT2 V12V, but I suspect I'm in the minority on that.
DB9VolanteDriver said:
I don't think the OP is talking about an automatic like the TT2. I believe he means the Sport Shift as on the V8 (electromechanicaly shifted manual transmission). But I have been known to be wrong...
I'm fairly sure that is what is in the One-77. I would just prefer a TT2 V12V
Patently the TT gearbox would work with that engine and one assumes it is theoretically possible to package it in the V12V but I don't really see the fit of that combination personally
The One 77 has an advanced version of the 6 speed sportshift automated manual found in regular V8 Vantages
At least one of the two V12 Zag racing cars had the same gearbox
The published spec of the V12 Zag road car is manual, but one assumes it is more than possible, once spec is finalised nearer the time, that the ONE 77 gearbox could be offered as either as a 'regular' option or a 'special'
So there is no reason why some variation on the sportshift could not be fitted in the V12V, be it based on the 6 speed or preferably, the new 7 speed from the S. But unless they bring out a new version of the V12V, such as a roadster or a final run out higher performance version, I can't see how it would pay to offer the option on the last few V12Vs and it therefore has to be seen as incredibly unlikely to happen. Also I've heard that it's a difficult transmission to control smooth shifts, particularly in the first couple of gears, on the ONE 77, I guess because of the sheer amount of power
The One 77 has an advanced version of the 6 speed sportshift automated manual found in regular V8 Vantages
At least one of the two V12 Zag racing cars had the same gearbox
The published spec of the V12 Zag road car is manual, but one assumes it is more than possible, once spec is finalised nearer the time, that the ONE 77 gearbox could be offered as either as a 'regular' option or a 'special'
So there is no reason why some variation on the sportshift could not be fitted in the V12V, be it based on the 6 speed or preferably, the new 7 speed from the S. But unless they bring out a new version of the V12V, such as a roadster or a final run out higher performance version, I can't see how it would pay to offer the option on the last few V12Vs and it therefore has to be seen as incredibly unlikely to happen. Also I've heard that it's a difficult transmission to control smooth shifts, particularly in the first couple of gears, on the ONE 77, I guess because of the sheer amount of power
Hi all. Yes, I was referring to the sport shift or equivalent. I'm not thinking of doing a conversion or wondering if the V12 could be mated with such a transmission. Again, I was just wondering if other V12V owners feel that the car could really benefit from an automated manual transmission.
Last year I rented an F430 in the south of France for a day and the paddles made a lot of sense in that car. It was amazing just ripping through the gears under full throttle. I wouldn't mind being able to do the same in the V12V, which accelerates about as quickly and whose engine also revs fast.
Last year I rented an F430 in the south of France for a day and the paddles made a lot of sense in that car. It was amazing just ripping through the gears under full throttle. I wouldn't mind being able to do the same in the V12V, which accelerates about as quickly and whose engine also revs fast.
I have driven my V12V on track and on twisty roads and whilst i agree with your observation that it would be easier to flip gears up and down with a automated manual gearbox (i also drove a V8 GT4 as comparison with the sportshift) i quickly found out, that you are actually going quicker by shifting gears less and let the torque of the V12 engine do the work instead. This was quite clear on the track at Silverstone where even with healing and toing the V12 down into second gear and then shift up comming out of corners it was quicker to take corners in 3rd gear and have less shifting and then rely on the torque to catch up the car in front when they were shifting up.
clorenzen said:
I have driven my V12V on track and on twisty roads and whilst i agree with your observation that it would be easier to flip gears up and down with a automated manual gearbox (i also drove a V8 GT4 as comparison with the sportshift) i quickly found out, that you are actually going quicker by shifting gears less and let the torque of the V12 engine do the work instead. This was quite clear on the track at Silverstone where even with healing and toing the V12 down into second gear and then shift up comming out of corners it was quicker to take corners in 3rd gear and have less shifting and then rely on the torque to catch up the car in front when they were shifting up.
I suspect the torque of the V12V (which I've driven - it's immense) is such that a 6/7 speed automated shifter is less necessary than on the V8 - in that sense I'm sure you are rightBut if the ratios & number of gears are mated well to the engine and you accept that you won't ever shift a conventional manual as quickly as a decent automated one, then a car with such a gearbox has to be faster. Of course that still leaves the huge issues of personal preference & entertainment, a la the MP4-12C vs 458 arguments
I'm very firmly anti flappy paddles and the manual was a significant part of my decision to buy a V12V. Currently only Aston Martin can supply you with a V12 that you can shift manually. So it really is the end of the road for the manual. So be patient, you'll be spending the rest of your life flipping playstation paddles so what's the rush?
However I'm sure you could put the TT2 box in a V12V at enormous cost, I'd be surprised if works service hadn't already done this as it's already available on the DBS. I'm not aware that it is an especially good paddle shift, really it's an auto with manual paddle over ride, but for many the appeal is for driving in cities etc so an auto works fine for them. I also think an auto is fine in a limo but would be a bit at odds with the V12V's character but if London driving's your thing then I guess it makes more sense. However I think the reality of paddle autos is that they're left in 'D' all the time. The novelty of flipping paddles soon wears off and I can tell you from first hand experience that a DB9 is faster left in D than using the paddles.
My other issue is how quickly these paddle shift boxes date. Every year a better one comes out and suddenly the old one is considered rubbish. Now, would you want a Vanquish paddleshift fitted to your V12V (which also might be possible)? Many paid to works service to fit manuals instead. I positively enjoy changing gear and would miss it, especially on the V12V.
There is a knack to it however that makes a big difference and takes a while to adjust to. Especially if you use the 'sport' button regularly, you need to learn not to floor the throttle to avoid that 'over rev' between gears. It's less of an issue with when you're not using 'sport' which I think is a bit of a gimmick anyway. But adjust your technique a little and it is very satisfying when you get it right.
However I'm sure you could put the TT2 box in a V12V at enormous cost, I'd be surprised if works service hadn't already done this as it's already available on the DBS. I'm not aware that it is an especially good paddle shift, really it's an auto with manual paddle over ride, but for many the appeal is for driving in cities etc so an auto works fine for them. I also think an auto is fine in a limo but would be a bit at odds with the V12V's character but if London driving's your thing then I guess it makes more sense. However I think the reality of paddle autos is that they're left in 'D' all the time. The novelty of flipping paddles soon wears off and I can tell you from first hand experience that a DB9 is faster left in D than using the paddles.
My other issue is how quickly these paddle shift boxes date. Every year a better one comes out and suddenly the old one is considered rubbish. Now, would you want a Vanquish paddleshift fitted to your V12V (which also might be possible)? Many paid to works service to fit manuals instead. I positively enjoy changing gear and would miss it, especially on the V12V.
There is a knack to it however that makes a big difference and takes a while to adjust to. Especially if you use the 'sport' button regularly, you need to learn not to floor the throttle to avoid that 'over rev' between gears. It's less of an issue with when you're not using 'sport' which I think is a bit of a gimmick anyway. But adjust your technique a little and it is very satisfying when you get it right.
The Pits said:
Currently only Aston Martin can supply you with a V12 that you can shift manually. So it really is the end of the road for the manual. So be patient, you'll be spending the rest of your life flipping playstation paddles so what's the rush?
+1 to this. I fully expect that every other volume manufacturer sports car that you will ever buy new in Europe will have a flappy paddle or true autobox anyway so why not enjoy the V12V for what it is?I love good flappy paddle gearboxes, but in my experience these are few and far between - most being nothing other than semi-manual automatic gearboxes that actually spoil the driving experience.
Anyway aside from my own thoughts, I believe the the V12V is the ONLY new V12 engined car available in the UK with a manual gearbox. Something to be proud of and a reason to want to own one of these beasts - they are truely the end of an era!
Anyway aside from my own thoughts, I believe the the V12V is the ONLY new V12 engined car available in the UK with a manual gearbox. Something to be proud of and a reason to want to own one of these beasts - they are truely the end of an era!
@clorenzen> That is a good point you raise about not needing to shift often on the track and in the twisties. I have done some fast driving in the mountains and I found that I spent most of my time in 3rd and 4th gears and I didn't need to shift between them often. I suppose where the automated manual makes the biggest difference is in straight line acceleration from low to high speed.
@The Pits> Also good a point as to how quickly these transmissions are evolving. It's almost like buying the latest and greatest electronic gizmo, only to have it become obsolete in a few months. I guess my point is that, as cars become more and more powerful and capable of greater and greater speeds, the need for an automated manual transmission becomes greater too if you want to be able to get the most out of the car. You are right though that I need to work on my technique. It's funny you mentioned the over-rev when up-shifting because that is one issue I have encountered. The V12V is the most powerful manual transmission car I've ever driven and the margin for error in timing the clutch and the throttle seems pretty small. The good news is that I'll enjoy spending hours honing my skills.
@The Pits> Also good a point as to how quickly these transmissions are evolving. It's almost like buying the latest and greatest electronic gizmo, only to have it become obsolete in a few months. I guess my point is that, as cars become more and more powerful and capable of greater and greater speeds, the need for an automated manual transmission becomes greater too if you want to be able to get the most out of the car. You are right though that I need to work on my technique. It's funny you mentioned the over-rev when up-shifting because that is one issue I have encountered. The V12V is the most powerful manual transmission car I've ever driven and the margin for error in timing the clutch and the throttle seems pretty small. The good news is that I'll enjoy spending hours honing my skills.
Also valid points John and Adam. I suppose the transmission you want depends upon what you want out of the car. If we're just talking about absolute straight-line performance (e.g., 0-60, 0-100, etc.), the paddles are the way to go. However, if we're talking about real-world driving enjoyment, you probably want the stick. And I agree that the car is one of the last of its kind, not only for the manual gearbox but also the big V12 engine. For those reasons it does feel like something very special.
Adam2S said:
I love good flappy paddle gearboxes, but in my experience these are few and far between - most being nothing other than semi-manual automatic gearboxes that actually spoil the driving experience.
Anyway aside from my own thoughts, I believe the the V12V is the ONLY new V12 engined car available in the UK with a manual gearbox. Something to be proud of and a reason to want to own one of these beasts - they are truely the end of an era!
As it happens, the 599 which of course is a V12 is technically available with a traditional 6 speed manual but the production numbers are tiny. Whilst not a V12, the Noble M600 is a sports car in a semi similar vein to the V12V and that has a manual gearbox I think. But that is semantics - we are as you say at or near the end of an era of manual gearbox sports cars full stop, be it V12 or otherwiseAnyway aside from my own thoughts, I believe the the V12V is the ONLY new V12 engined car available in the UK with a manual gearbox. Something to be proud of and a reason to want to own one of these beasts - they are truely the end of an era!
Will be interesting to see where Lotus go with their new line up but none of the Japanees cars (from LFA to GTR) other than maybe the rally type cars like the Evo, none of the Italian exotica going forward (Ferrari, Maserati, Lambo), one assumes any Porsche other than the boxter/cayman (apart from maybe the GT2/3 replacements), no Mclaren, no Mercedes/AMG, probably no M3/M5 of the future, etc, etc will or do have a manual gearbox option
Does that not leave room in the marketplace for Aston to sell to those who do want a manual, so few are the alternatives ?
George H said:
Rex Racer said:
However, if we're talking about real-world driving enjoyment, you probably want the stick.
I'm the complete opposite. I love using the paddleshift, and the TT2 is the best of both worlds imo.Can fully understand though someone who loves TT and hates sportshift - depends on how you use the car/drive/which car it is
TT is auto with override. Sportshift is as close to a manual experience as you can get without a clutch. It's all about choices. Well it should be. We are being given fewer choices these days which bearing in mind the age we are in, doesn't really make sense.
It is an enormous shame, IMO, that we seem to be seeing the end of the manual gearbox. I find it a hugely important part of really enjoying driving a great car. I don't hate paddle 'boxes, but I find them completely uninteresting to use, and I've driven enough of them (good and bad) to know that it's not a matter of getting used to them. Except perhaps at absolute maximum attack, at which good ones are no doubt extremely good at their job, I find them no more interesting to use than a video game. At anything less than in max attack mode, I get no pleasure from them whatsoever, and I truly enjoy a true manual. There is ZERO chance that I would change my manual V8V for a Vantage S, a Virage or a 2012 DB9 because none is available with a manual. A V12V is tempting...
Clearly my opinion isn't all that unusual. At the big AMOC event at Lime Rock a couple of months ago, there were 5 V8Vs -- every single one had a gear lever and a clutch pedal.
Clearly my opinion isn't all that unusual. At the big AMOC event at Lime Rock a couple of months ago, there were 5 V8Vs -- every single one had a gear lever and a clutch pedal.
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