DBS 2013: Not competitive anymore!?
Discussion
According to reports, the tweaked V12 will get about 20hp more. This means only 540hp in the next DBS!
I'm a little bit disappointed, because the competition is far ahead:
- next Ferrari 599 (Geneva 2012 presentation) gets 700hp
- 2012 BMW M6 gets 580hp and costs much less than a DBS
- every AMG has more than 500hp under the hood
I know, it's not all about numbers. But still, my feeling is that the DBS just isn't competitive anymore. It solely relies on its looks as the competitive advantage.
What do you guys think? Please discuss!
I'm a little bit disappointed, because the competition is far ahead:
- next Ferrari 599 (Geneva 2012 presentation) gets 700hp
- 2012 BMW M6 gets 580hp and costs much less than a DBS
- every AMG has more than 500hp under the hood
I know, it's not all about numbers. But still, my feeling is that the DBS just isn't competitive anymore. It solely relies on its looks as the competitive advantage.
What do you guys think? Please discuss!
I think you hit the nail on the head when you said it's not about the numbers. It never has been with Aston. I too want Aston to be competitive with its peers, but I'm not concerned that another car can get to 60 0.4 seconds faster. In the real world, this just doesn't matter. More important is the driving experience, how the car looks, and how the car makes you feel. If the numbers were all that mattered, I would have (God forbid) purchased a Corvette ZR1 or a GTR! There have always been faster and/or less expensive alternatives out there, but I like everyone else on the forum still chose the Aston. There's a reason for that.
nzaston said:
But still, my feeling is that the DBS just isn't competitive anymore.
Competitive in what? In a competition to see who has most bhp?Really, this is missing the point. If you are old enough to remember mid 80s Formula one you will recall the grenade engine. A 1.5 litre engine with the turbo boost set to incredible pressure. A car would generate 1500bhp for one lap. But they were almost undriveable. So if a grenade engine was fitted to a DBS would that make you happy?
Me, I prefer a car that can be driven by a mere mortal, one that is reasonably safe without a ton of electrical stuff to keep the wheels on the road. Just a thought - but how many of the bhp in excess of 500 do you think that the computer in a 599 or an M6 will allow you to put on the road????
Minor point - a UK spec DBS has 510bhp.
Being more moderate, the DBS V12 could pump out 600bhp without a lot of work. But that work is costly and requires more expensive parts. Do AML want to spend that money on an engine when FoMoCo stop supplying it in 2013 or 2014?
Why does it need 700bhp+? It would just make it unusable as a daily car.
Power isn't everything, it needs to keep relatively low weight. Bearing in mind it is under 1700kg now, which is one of the best in its class, if that drops slightly, and gets a power boost it will be fast enough for the majority of people.
I can't think of one time where the mere 470 bhp in the DB9 hasn't been enough for driving on public roads.
Power isn't everything, it needs to keep relatively low weight. Bearing in mind it is under 1700kg now, which is one of the best in its class, if that drops slightly, and gets a power boost it will be fast enough for the majority of people.
I can't think of one time where the mere 470 bhp in the DB9 hasn't been enough for driving on public roads.
MartinV12 said:
Exactly, it's not all about numbers.
BMW M6, please. Look at it, it's such an ugly car. Next generation seems not to look a lot better..
BMW M6 vs Aston V8 4.3 vs Carrera 2S on Top Gear on Isle of Wight in the rain(a very funny program). If I remember the mega hp BM and Aston were similar in time but the lower hp Porsche was measurably quicker as I remember.BMW M6, please. Look at it, it's such an ugly car. Next generation seems not to look a lot better..
Big hp isn't everything.
David W. said:
BMW M6 vs Aston V8 4.3 vs Carrera 2S on Top Gear on Isle of Wight in the rain(a very funny program). If I remember the mega hp BM and Aston were similar in time but the lower hp Porsche was measurably quicker as I remember.
Big hp isn't everything.
Isle of Man and the M6 and the 4.3 had the same time. Big hp isn't everything.
David W. said:
BMW M6 vs Aston V8 4.3 vs Carrera 2S on Top Gear on Isle of Wight in the rain(a very funny program). If I remember the mega hp BM and Aston were similar in time but the lower hp Porsche was measurably quicker as I remember.
Big hp isn't everything.
Power to weight ratio ??Big hp isn't everything.
I´m genuinely guessing here so stand to be corrected
pwr, balance, size, feel. All FAR more important than pure bhp.
That said, Aston need to be looking at what their competitors are doing in these respects too. The DBS has always been close to the 599. But Ferrari have shown their colours with the 458. If the next 599 is half as good, the DBS cannot afford to give away over 100bhp.
If their current powerplant cannot yield a lot more, then they need a replacement. Gone are the days when high performance engines from the likes of Ferrari are unreliable etc.
That said, Aston need to be looking at what their competitors are doing in these respects too. The DBS has always been close to the 599. But Ferrari have shown their colours with the 458. If the next 599 is half as good, the DBS cannot afford to give away over 100bhp.
If their current powerplant cannot yield a lot more, then they need a replacement. Gone are the days when high performance engines from the likes of Ferrari are unreliable etc.
Honestly, the V12 is an old tractor engine. It's more or less solid (got so during the years) but clearly is lacking a lot of modern engine features like knock sensor, variable valve timing etc.
I don't know if Aston does actually have the resources to develop it further. IMO they just cannot (and should not try to) compete with ferrari in the engine area.
I don't know if Aston does actually have the resources to develop it further. IMO they just cannot (and should not try to) compete with ferrari in the engine area.
No it's not about numbers, but he has hit on a very valid point, the reason the V12 in the Aston does not compete on power is because the design is old compared to whats going into Ferrari, Lambo, BMW, Merc etc
Just saying its's an Aston is not enough either, that might just do vs BMW or Mercedes, but there is only so far a badge can take you without the product behind it, and unfortunately for Aston there not just competing vs more mass market marque's like BMW and Mercedes, there also up against ferrari, Maserati, etc
Those cars have just as much it's a (insert posh brand name here) cachet as Aston, yet are coming out with new cars, that are are now starting to show a noticable gap between themselves and Astons offerings
Particularly in the case of Ferrari and lamborghini, who's engines and are far more advanced and powerful, and have been for some time now
Don't get me wrong i really like some of Astons cars, the V8 Vantage is great, the DB9 was great when it launched, and the 1-77 is certainly a statement
The trouble i see, is while these cars are great, stuff like the virage, DBS and new zagato tie in, are not really taking the strides forward that are needed, the styling while pretty is loosing the impact it once had, and is starting to become a tad samey when applied to nearly every new model
The engine is not really getting the attention it needs, they bored it out to what 7.3 on the 1 - 77, the current batch of cars need a larger capacity IMO to start matching whats going on with rivals, it's all well and good saying power does not matter, Lotus Elise fans have been saying it for over 10 years and the result is the current base car is barely competive with a 2 litre diesel past 40 mph
Compare that the base car of launch, which had performance far more in keeping with sports cars of the day, what happend? nothing, power went up by 10hp over 15 years and weight went up by 200kg, meanwhile even non sporting cars were getting more powerful and economical engines, while lotus stood, still with the base car, and some would argue actually went backwards
Aston cannot afford for it's cars to fall significantly behind the competion, derivative styling, a lack of power compared to rivals and new models that seem more like reskins, than actual new car is not going to do Aston any favours in the long run
The current range is not bad, but there are area's were improvement is overdue, and i think some of there latest offerings have been lack lustre, with very little excitement factor generated, they need to work on these weakeness soon, before they become serious problems, rivals makers are not going to stand still, so Aston need to pick up the pace considerably IMO, just to stay at the same postion they are now, relative in 4 or 5 years and there not doing that from what i can see
Just saying its's an Aston is not enough either, that might just do vs BMW or Mercedes, but there is only so far a badge can take you without the product behind it, and unfortunately for Aston there not just competing vs more mass market marque's like BMW and Mercedes, there also up against ferrari, Maserati, etc
Those cars have just as much it's a (insert posh brand name here) cachet as Aston, yet are coming out with new cars, that are are now starting to show a noticable gap between themselves and Astons offerings
Particularly in the case of Ferrari and lamborghini, who's engines and are far more advanced and powerful, and have been for some time now
Don't get me wrong i really like some of Astons cars, the V8 Vantage is great, the DB9 was great when it launched, and the 1-77 is certainly a statement
The trouble i see, is while these cars are great, stuff like the virage, DBS and new zagato tie in, are not really taking the strides forward that are needed, the styling while pretty is loosing the impact it once had, and is starting to become a tad samey when applied to nearly every new model
The engine is not really getting the attention it needs, they bored it out to what 7.3 on the 1 - 77, the current batch of cars need a larger capacity IMO to start matching whats going on with rivals, it's all well and good saying power does not matter, Lotus Elise fans have been saying it for over 10 years and the result is the current base car is barely competive with a 2 litre diesel past 40 mph
Compare that the base car of launch, which had performance far more in keeping with sports cars of the day, what happend? nothing, power went up by 10hp over 15 years and weight went up by 200kg, meanwhile even non sporting cars were getting more powerful and economical engines, while lotus stood, still with the base car, and some would argue actually went backwards
Aston cannot afford for it's cars to fall significantly behind the competion, derivative styling, a lack of power compared to rivals and new models that seem more like reskins, than actual new car is not going to do Aston any favours in the long run
The current range is not bad, but there are area's were improvement is overdue, and i think some of there latest offerings have been lack lustre, with very little excitement factor generated, they need to work on these weakeness soon, before they become serious problems, rivals makers are not going to stand still, so Aston need to pick up the pace considerably IMO, just to stay at the same postion they are now, relative in 4 or 5 years and there not doing that from what i can see
Edited by peter450 on Friday 15th July 23:39
Valid points. I still don't think Aston needs to be the fastest, but their technology, especially in relation to the engine, is a bit dated. Variable timing and direct injection would be welcome changes for instance. I agree that the problem is that Aston just doesn't have the funds to do major redesigns. Maybe they will be absorbed by a major manufacturer (e.g., Merc). That could help with the funding/development issue and help them in terms of dealing with upcoming emissions requirements.
Rex Racer said:
Valid points. I still don't think Aston needs to be the fastest, but their technology, especially in relation to the engine, is a bit dated. Variable timing and direct injection would be welcome changes for instance. I agree that the problem is that Aston just doesn't have the funds to do major redesigns. Maybe they will be absorbed by a major manufacturer (e.g., Merc). That could help with the funding/development issue and help them in terms of dealing with upcoming emissions requirements.
It would be great if a major manufacturer bought Aston only, IMO, if the resulting Astons are still Astons, like the current cars developed under Ford's ownership. An Aston Martin that is a M-B or whatever else under the skin (never mind a Toyota), similar to the way a Bentley Continental is a VW and a R-R Ghost is a BMW, holds little appeal to me.
I certainly don't think that an Aston needs to have the most hp, but I agree that Astons need to be competitive with their competition. However, I don't know why new Ferraris, Lambos, etc. need 700 hp -- the numbers have gotten a bit ridiculous.
Excellent opinions chaps, clearly listening to what others are saying and putting forward counter / complimentary points.
The main problem I see, and I´m not the sharpest knife in the drawer, is the lack of breadth in the Aston range. Being a niche marque rarely affords scale economies, and so AM has no cash cows to fall back on in the mass market like other higher end manufacturers.
Perhaps the release of recent models is an attempt to address this, and afford it a wider range. Perhaps the cygnet has a dual emissions / wider market strategic intent?
Either way, at least they are doing something rather than just standing still. Whether or not it is sufficient remains to be seen
The main problem I see, and I´m not the sharpest knife in the drawer, is the lack of breadth in the Aston range. Being a niche marque rarely affords scale economies, and so AM has no cash cows to fall back on in the mass market like other higher end manufacturers.
Perhaps the release of recent models is an attempt to address this, and afford it a wider range. Perhaps the cygnet has a dual emissions / wider market strategic intent?
Either way, at least they are doing something rather than just standing still. Whether or not it is sufficient remains to be seen
Well, everything got more powerful, hot hatches today, pack the same kind of HP figures as the entry level supercars of the late 70's, like the 308 etc
It's all relative, if sports cars like the Cayman, Z370, Z4 etc are packing around 300+ hp today, instead of the 200 odd hp of 20 years ago, and entry level supercars are like 500hp, instead of 300, then the top level supercars are going to need to be 600+
While i get Aston are on a tight budget, was not the whole point of the 1 - 77, to be a teck showcase? and allow Aston to develope/Experiment with new parts, and for the lessons learned to filter down the range etc, the engine in the 1 - 77 puts out around 700+ hp
While they clearly cannot just bung this unit in all there cars, from what i can see, the power increase has come mainly from taking that unit out to 7.3 litres, so the lesson IMO to take to the rest of the range is a capacity increase, i dont see why they cant add 0.5 or 0.75 of a litre to the current V12 and get another 50 to 100 HP out of it, which would at once, but them on a more straight compartive footing to there rivals as far as power outputs go
It's all relative, if sports cars like the Cayman, Z370, Z4 etc are packing around 300+ hp today, instead of the 200 odd hp of 20 years ago, and entry level supercars are like 500hp, instead of 300, then the top level supercars are going to need to be 600+
While i get Aston are on a tight budget, was not the whole point of the 1 - 77, to be a teck showcase? and allow Aston to develope/Experiment with new parts, and for the lessons learned to filter down the range etc, the engine in the 1 - 77 puts out around 700+ hp
While they clearly cannot just bung this unit in all there cars, from what i can see, the power increase has come mainly from taking that unit out to 7.3 litres, so the lesson IMO to take to the rest of the range is a capacity increase, i dont see why they cant add 0.5 or 0.75 of a litre to the current V12 and get another 50 to 100 HP out of it, which would at once, but them on a more straight compartive footing to there rivals as far as power outputs go
peter450 said:
Well, everything got more powerful, hot hatches today, pack the same kind of HP figures as the entry level supercars of the late 70's, like the 308 etc
It's all relative, if sports cars like the Cayman, Z370, Z4 etc are packing around 300+ hp today, instead of the 200 odd hp of 20 years ago, and entry level supercars are like 500hp, instead of 300, then the top level supercars are going to need to be 600+
While i get Aston are on a tight budget, was not the whole point of the 1 - 77, to be a teck showcase? and allow Aston to develope/Experiment with new parts, and for the lessons learned to filter down the range etc, the engine in the 1 - 77 puts out around 700+ hp
Why does everyone seem to compare Aston to supercars like Ferrari and Lamborghini? It's not a supercar, it's a GT. Even if it was a supercar, it's not going to be a 'top level' one as you say, that is now pretty much reserved for the 800+bhp £1m+ cars. It's all relative, if sports cars like the Cayman, Z370, Z4 etc are packing around 300+ hp today, instead of the 200 odd hp of 20 years ago, and entry level supercars are like 500hp, instead of 300, then the top level supercars are going to need to be 600+
While i get Aston are on a tight budget, was not the whole point of the 1 - 77, to be a teck showcase? and allow Aston to develope/Experiment with new parts, and for the lessons learned to filter down the range etc, the engine in the 1 - 77 puts out around 700+ hp
The DBS's closest rival is the Bentley Continental Supersport imo, which despite it being down on power, it beats in power/weight ratio, which is more important.
How do you know that this prototype DBS doesn't have features from the One-77 filtered down into it. They were hardly likely to filter down new technology into the Virage, and end up making that faster than the DBS.
I think the 540bhp will be plenty, if they can couple that with a low weight of around 1600kg. Depending on gearing etc, that must be good for a sub 4 second 0-60 time.
You just need to look at the comments on the 4.3 vs 4.7 Vantage to acknowledge this is a live issue.I don't think I would worry too much about changing the looks though - evolution not revolution as they are doing (and a la 911) will be just fine.A Merc tie up or similar is now needed though - let's hope that does not drive them down the 'Mini' route developing a whole range most of which will bear no relation to the brand.
George H said:
Why does everyone seem to compare Aston to supercars like Ferrari and Lamborghini? It's not a supercar, it's a GT.
I agree with not comparing it to a Lambo which occupies a niche of it's own, but the DBS should be comparble to the 599, Calfornia or Scaglietti which are Ferrari's GT cars and are in roughly the same price bracket. Currently I reckon it does, but next generation it won't. DBS/Virage/DB9 seems to occupy a space between the 599 and the Bentley, not as sporty as the 599, not as 'bargey' as the Bentley. To fall behind them both will lose buyers, as not everyone knows abot cars. They read reviews, compare the stats and are happy to have their minds made up for them.I must admit, taking another 500cc from that engine seems an easy way to more power and torque, certainly less complicated than supercharging, which Aston are no stranger to and I would see as very appropriate for the brand. It doesn't need 700bhp or the electronics/diff needed to keep that in check, but 550-570bhp wouldn't go amiss with a small weight reduction. It wouldn't do much more than give you more bragging rights, but people like to know how fast their cars are compared to their friends in the golf club
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