Lightweight exhausts - chancing your arm?
Discussion
Interested to hear views on this.
I've been thinking about replacing the exhaust in a V12 with a lighter version.
Some research (no names) leads me to a few companies. I know that titanium is much more expensive than standard 304 steel. For comparison - about £40,000/metric ton versus about £1000/metric ton.
Ok, so a steel exhaust back box weighs about 15 kilos. A titanium backbox about 10 kilos. So there is about £10 of steel involved versus about £400 of titanium.
Yet I see a steel back box priced at about £1,800 and titanium item at about £10,000.
Is there any real increase in complexity for working with titanium - different production techniques needed etc? Or are these guys just making a shed load of profit on the titanium part??
Please go easy if this is really dumb, I'm a money guy not an engineer....
I've been thinking about replacing the exhaust in a V12 with a lighter version.
Some research (no names) leads me to a few companies. I know that titanium is much more expensive than standard 304 steel. For comparison - about £40,000/metric ton versus about £1000/metric ton.
Ok, so a steel exhaust back box weighs about 15 kilos. A titanium backbox about 10 kilos. So there is about £10 of steel involved versus about £400 of titanium.
Yet I see a steel back box priced at about £1,800 and titanium item at about £10,000.
Is there any real increase in complexity for working with titanium - different production techniques needed etc? Or are these guys just making a shed load of profit on the titanium part??
Please go easy if this is really dumb, I'm a money guy not an engineer....
I had a titanium exhaust on my last car, don't bother!
It is super light BUT is suspectible to fractures under stress and is very difficult to weld so not easily repaired.
IME a decent stainless system provides a good compromise between weight reduction and cost.
A full system with "breathing mods" and the right mapping will also give power gains.
For me Titanium on a road car is akin to all the carbon fibre trinkets available.
More about the "bling" than the performance.
BTW on the CF nearly all the parts you see on road cars are single layer with a VERY thick epoxy resin coat (much like fibre glass) so it looks like CF but weighs more than aluminum
ETA to answer you questions expensive material + expensive expertise + expensive car = oppurtunity to make stupid profit
It is super light BUT is suspectible to fractures under stress and is very difficult to weld so not easily repaired.
IME a decent stainless system provides a good compromise between weight reduction and cost.
A full system with "breathing mods" and the right mapping will also give power gains.
For me Titanium on a road car is akin to all the carbon fibre trinkets available.
More about the "bling" than the performance.
BTW on the CF nearly all the parts you see on road cars are single layer with a VERY thick epoxy resin coat (much like fibre glass) so it looks like CF but weighs more than aluminum
ETA to answer you questions expensive material + expensive expertise + expensive car = oppurtunity to make stupid profit
Edited by mikey k on Thursday 12th May 15:53
JohnG1 said:
Ok, so a steel exhaust back box weighs about 15 kilos. A titanium backbox about 10 kilos. So there is about £10 of steel involved versus about £400 of titanium.
Yet I see a steel back box priced at about £1,800 and titanium item at about £10,000.
Short fill your tank by about 6 litres and you'll save the same weight and have an extra £8,200 to spend on petrol (or other tuning mods) Yet I see a steel back box priced at about £1,800 and titanium item at about £10,000.
yeti said:
Titanium is very hard to work, hard to cut, hard to mill, hard to weld, in short it's just hard work!
Ok, so it takes longer to cut and weld it - based on the properties of the material. So even if it is twice as hard to work as steel, still seems like the manufacturers are making a massive margin!yeti said:
Titanium is very hard to work, hard to cut, hard to mill, hard to weld, in short it's just hard work!
I work with titanium every day, it really isn't as hard as people think. The main reason it is used it purely due to lightness, many steels are actually harder than titanium. All it does is wear out tools faster, and require slightly different speeds/feeds/depths of cut etc. I can't comment on the welding as I have never tried it.How much would an inconel exhaust system be in comparison to a titanium? That really is difficult to machine.
have an inconel system on my race car, it was made by Chris Tullet and is a work of art, light as a feather and V V strong
Simon
www.tillingmotorsport.com
Simon
www.tillingmotorsport.com
George H said:
I work with titanium every day, it really isn't as hard as people think. The main reason it is used it purely due to lightness, many steels are actually harder than titanium. All it does is wear out tools faster, and require slightly different speeds/feeds/depths of cut etc. I can't comment on the welding as I have never tried it.
How much would an inconel exhaust system be in comparison to a titanium? That really is difficult to machine.
Depends what grade George and what Ti alloy is being used! We used to make some high stress aero / astro bits (in my previous life at an engineering place) that would take a room-sized CNC machine running all night to make and would use a full set of tools in the processs. The costs for these little 3 x 4in boxes was 10s of thousands.How much would an inconel exhaust system be in comparison to a titanium? That really is difficult to machine.
The stuff they use in wristwatches you can scratch with anything. Ti is way harder to fabricate in every way, can you mandrel bend it for an exhaust?
Wonderful heat resistance properties of course but stainless is adequate for the temperatures generated.
Gents - no titanium exhaust vendor I have found specifies the alloy used. I can see that for steel they use 304. I'm no metallurgist but that sounds like "stock"/"standard" steel. Given that I would expect that these people would be using a similar relative grade of titanium.
Note that I am just talking about the back box section - not the entire system from manifold to exhaust outlet. Hence my amazement and desire to understand if these guys are genuinely spending way more time on the titanium part or if they are just chancing my arm.
Note that I am just talking about the back box section - not the entire system from manifold to exhaust outlet. Hence my amazement and desire to understand if these guys are genuinely spending way more time on the titanium part or if they are just chancing my arm.
JohnG1 said:
Interested to hear views on this.
I've been thinking about replacing the exhaust in a V12 with a lighter version.
Some research (no names) leads me to a few companies. I know that titanium is much more expensive than standard 304 steel. For comparison - about £40,000/metric ton versus about £1000/metric ton.
Ok, so a steel exhaust back box weighs about 15 kilos. A titanium backbox about 10 kilos. So there is about £10 of steel involved versus about £400 of titanium.
Yet I see a steel back box priced at about £1,800 and titanium item at about £10,000.
Is there any real increase in complexity for working with titanium - different production techniques needed etc? Or are these guys just making a shed load of profit on the titanium part??
Please go easy if this is really dumb, I'm a money guy not an engineer....
£10,000 for an exhaust !! are you mad......suggest you save the money and put it towards you excellent fantasy garage I've been thinking about replacing the exhaust in a V12 with a lighter version.
Some research (no names) leads me to a few companies. I know that titanium is much more expensive than standard 304 steel. For comparison - about £40,000/metric ton versus about £1000/metric ton.
Ok, so a steel exhaust back box weighs about 15 kilos. A titanium backbox about 10 kilos. So there is about £10 of steel involved versus about £400 of titanium.
Yet I see a steel back box priced at about £1,800 and titanium item at about £10,000.
Is there any real increase in complexity for working with titanium - different production techniques needed etc? Or are these guys just making a shed load of profit on the titanium part??
Please go easy if this is really dumb, I'm a money guy not an engineer....
michael gould said:
£10,000 for an exhaust !! are you mad......suggest you save the money and put it towards you excellent fantasy garage
One day I will have an XJ220. I remember blagging my way onto the Birmingham motor show stand way back ('89?) with my Dad flashing his Jaguar RAC card as though it was a security pass and bypassing the queue round the block. Happy days....Back to the topic at hand - I'm not going to spend £10,000 on an exhaust back box. I may be a soft shandy drinking southerner Michael but I've not gone mad!
I am trying to work out what the damn thing actually costs and then evaluate how much to bid for the part. If, as it appears so far, it costs more for the materials and more for labour and more for cost of manufacture then I'm ok with it costing "some" more. But >£8,000 appears (on evidence so far) to be taking the mickey.
If I really want to lose weight from my V12 I'd get rid of the B&O and remove the rear shelf, warning triangle, umbrella, spare tyre glue stuff etc. etc. It's more that I'm interested in a slightly louder exhaust and I'm trying to work out genuine prices.
even £2.5k for stainless exhaust backbox is high IMO ...when you can buy similar for other cars, for 1/4 of the price ...of course low volumes for Astons is the excuse there I guess
lets face it, the more expensive the car, the more expensive (usually) the aftermarket parts, just because the suppliers think you can "afford it" and will pay for "high quality"
lets face it, the more expensive the car, the more expensive (usually) the aftermarket parts, just because the suppliers think you can "afford it" and will pay for "high quality"
JohnG1 said:
I may be a soft shandy drinking southerner Michael...If I really want to lose weight from my V12 I'd get rid of the B&O and remove the rear shelf, warning triangle, umbrella, spare tyre glue stuff etc. etc.
Also, drink less shandy before you get in the car.Then you yourself will weigh less.
John, you have too much spare money
Jockman said:
Also, drink less shandy before you get in the car.
Then you yourself will weigh less.
John, you have too much spare money
I don't even drink alcohol - I stopped to fund my fast car habit :-)Then you yourself will weigh less.
John, you have too much spare money
Spare money - if only!!
I think that the prices quoted by "various aftermarket exhaust firms" are such b.s. that I am not willing to pay. If someone thinks £10,000 for a £400 lump of titanium and some cutting and welding is reasonable then they are bonkers. Even if it takes 4 man days to cut and weld (imagine the welder/engineer is a sloth on mogadon for breakfast, valium for lunch and heroin for supper) then I think a more reasonable price is £2k +VAT.
bogie said:
even £2.5k for stainless exhaust backbox is high IMO ...when you can buy similar for other cars, for 1/4 of the price ...of course low volumes for Astons is the excuse there I guess
lets face it, the more expensive the car, the more expensive (usually) the aftermarket parts, just because the suppliers think you can "afford it" and will pay for "high quality"
Exactly my point earlier and IMHO the main cause of the price inflation lets face it, the more expensive the car, the more expensive (usually) the aftermarket parts, just because the suppliers think you can "afford it" and will pay for "high quality"
I work with precious metals amongst other things, and the same thing applies there with gold and platinum - the spot prices for both can be within 10% of each other, and apparently platinum is harder for jewellers to work with compared to gold, but the price of finished pieces is often double compared to the metal cost.
It's all about the public perception I think, along with the lower volume of sales for the more expensive item. Same thing applies to cars of course, I'm sure nowadays Aston's profit per unit as a percentage is much higher than Ford's.
It's all about the public perception I think, along with the lower volume of sales for the more expensive item. Same thing applies to cars of course, I'm sure nowadays Aston's profit per unit as a percentage is much higher than Ford's.
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