The Dreaded DB9 Engine Tick!
Discussion
LTP said:
Steve,
Good info, although not relevant directly to me, having a V8V
However, I was interested and the link doesn't seem to work for me. I think it's been cropped by the PH forum software.
Paul
(aka PaulVS or "The Scarlet Pimpernel" on AMOC forum)
You'd need to join that website to see it in full and ask the relevant person questions. Good info, although not relevant directly to me, having a V8V
However, I was interested and the link doesn't seem to work for me. I think it's been cropped by the PH forum software.
Paul
(aka PaulVS or "The Scarlet Pimpernel" on AMOC forum)
That was a great explanation, thank you. I do like it when 'the madness of crowds' and fear-mongering are replaced by actual facts.
Is mileage a factor?
VanquishRider said:
I'm not sure anyone can exactly say what causes the faults. I'm of the opinion it could be poor oil quality, poor start up routine etc. Others have other ideas.
I guess it's a question of what makes the aluminium and steel expand at different rates the most. Logic would suggest you don't want to work the engine too much before it's warmed through.Is mileage a factor?
Whilst not relevant to this tale of woe, having owned a 5 year old low mileage V8V that suffered a catastrophic engine failure in my opinion the best way to appreciate any Aston Martin is from the pavement as you watch it drive past.
Based entirely upon the expensive and bitterly disappointing jaundiced experience of the one and only AM I’ll ever own.
Based entirely upon the expensive and bitterly disappointing jaundiced experience of the one and only AM I’ll ever own.
Simpo Two said:
That was a great explanation, thank you. I do like it when 'the madness of crowds' and fear-mongering are replaced by actual facts.
Is mileage a factor?
If you have owned a car from day one and know exactly how it has been driven, what servicing it has had, what quality of oil and coolant was used you could rule some things out. But with the vast majority of these cars getting the "Tick" and other engine issues we don't have the quality of information you need. VanquishRider said:
I'm not sure anyone can exactly say what causes the faults. I'm of the opinion it could be poor oil quality, poor start up routine etc. Others have other ideas.
I guess it's a question of what makes the aluminium and steel expand at different rates the most. Logic would suggest you don't want to work the engine too much before it's warmed through.Is mileage a factor?
Very few engines actually suffer these problems.
Some people have started logging the engine numbers to see if there is a pattern. None is obvious as yet. Most newer engines don't yet have the miles to determine if the "Tick" will eventually appear. The earliest V12's on Vanquish and DB7 don't seem to suffer the problem. The engine shown didn't have the tick, it failed its head gasket. It was high miles and driven pretty hard by its owner.
N111BJG said:
Whilst not relevant to this tale of woe, having owned a 5 year old low mileage V8V that suffered a catastrophic engine failure in my opinion the best way to appreciate any Aston Martin is from the pavement as you watch it drive past.
Based entirely upon the expensive and bitterly disappointing jaundiced experience of the one and only AM I’ll ever own.
Unfortunately I had a similar experience, I keep thinking of coming back from time to time but I just couldn't live with the will it wont it scenario. Based entirely upon the expensive and bitterly disappointing jaundiced experience of the one and only AM I’ll ever own.
N111BJG said:
Whilst not relevant to this tale of woe, having owned a 5 year old low mileage V8V that suffered a catastrophic engine failure in my opinion the best way to appreciate any Aston Martin is from the pavement as you watch it drive past.
Based entirely upon the expensive and bitterly disappointing jaundiced experience of the one and only AM I’ll ever own.
All modern Aston engines are considerably more reliable than anything Porsche has been knocking out for the last 25 years. Based entirely upon the expensive and bitterly disappointing jaundiced experience of the one and only AM I’ll ever own.
Cars like to be used. If you don't use them expect problems.
VanquishRider said:
All modern Aston engines are considerably more reliable than anything Porsche has been knocking out for the last 25 years.
Oh my, that is a rather bold statement! Can you provide a link to any data that validates that assertion?Certainly Porsche engines have had some issues - the infamous IMS bearing of the non-turbo 996 generation cars comes to mind. But in general they are very robust and as a follower of enthusiast forums pertaining to both marques I can attest that the number of high mileage (>> 100k miles) Porsches seems to greatly exceed the corresponding number of Astons.
Simpo Two said:
I guess it's a question of what makes the aluminium and steel expand at different rates the most. Logic would suggest you don't want to work the engine too much before it's warmed through.
Is mileage a factor?
Thanks for all of the messages and support guys.Is mileage a factor?
I don't think mileage is a factor, my car has done 62K but PrAston DB9 only did 16K which is no mileage at all!! Regarding oil servicing and cold starts, I have changed the oil every year with Mobil 1 0-40 and always allowed the engine to warm up before putting my foot down.
No one knows 100% why these cars start to tick, seems to affect DB7V, NP Vanquish, early DB9, but not sure if it affects glass key 470bhp onwards V12's. There seems to be 3 items involved in this - 1 -Engine Block, 2 -Steel Liners 3 -Small end bush, so anyone of them could be causing this. I have recently seen photos of the outer face of liners with combustion material on them so that means the liner has slightly dropped causing combustion gases to go between the outer face of the liner and the parent bore. The question is is this the cause of the fault or another component failing first, who knows. So if engine rebuilders replace the liners and small end bush to updated items, hopefully this will cure the problem, if it comes back again in the future you would have to blame the block!!
As cost is always a big consideration the only way to get the car fixed is to remove it in my garage (if possible) using an engine hoist lifting it out of the engine bay instead of a couple of examples recently I've seen on youtube using a car ramp (which I don't have and I don't have the garage height) to separate the body from the chassis (like GB9 Garage). I can put the long engine in the back of my van and drive it to an engine rebuilders.
I'm hopefully going to talk to a couple of garages this week to get prices etc........
Fingers crossed.
paulrog1 said:
As cost is always a big consideration the only way to get the car fixed is to remove it in my garage (if possible) using an engine hoist lifting it out of the engine bay instead of a couple of examples recently I've seen on youtube using a car ramp (which I don't have and I don't have the garage height) to separate the body from the chassis (like GB9 Garage). I can put the long engine in the back of my van and drive it to an engine rebuilders.
I'm hopefully going to talk to a couple of garages this week to get prices etc........
Fingers crossed.
FWIW, I bought my 2006 DB9 with a blown motor - "pro tip: don't drive it on 6 quarts of oil, bad stuff will happen"...I'm hopefully going to talk to a couple of garages this week to get prices etc........
Fingers crossed.
I bought a maxjack for my 8' tall garage and made wooden frames on rollers to support the engine and rear differential. Raised the body off the frame and gained easy access to the engine-torque tube-rear differential. I suppose it could be possible to come out the top, but I find it really hard to believe. Maybe buy a maxjack, use it and sell it? To get a sense of what it's like, search the other Aston Martin site for "My new to me 2006 DB9".
I have no data to suggest why there is a tick. But, I note the more modern Ford Connecting rods have a redesigned small end bushing. Additionally, it takes a long time to warm up 12 quarts of oil. I put a oil pressure & temperature gauge in, and I drive it gingerly until it's warmed up. That's not just an AM thing, but probably is more important given the length of the block and the .016" clearances on the mains (vice .024" on the Ford V-8 that shares it's heritage).
Gents,
I am running the Hartech engineered rebuilt engine in my V12Vanquish.
Baz and I have opened up a DB7V, two VQ and one DB9 engine. All show combustion materials between steel liner and aluminium bore. Not on every cylinder and no two engines are the same.
It is my and Baz's belief that all V12's will have the issue to a greater or lesser degree. We have no reliable data as to whether any version of the engine is worse or better but anecdotal evidence suggest early DB9s are worse.
We also believe that the root cause of the "tick" is the liner going out of round and loading up the piston(s)
In order to eliminate the issue in the simpler (restricted development) race engines Prodrive stripped new engines and baked them in ovens while vertically loading the liners. Far too late for any of us to do that.
We opted to reliner the engine, Wet liners. Turns out that is EXACTLY what Prodrive did for the DBR9 engines that won Le Mans. However, they used steel liners not Nikasil.
We will be offering engine rebuilds at a sensible price as a service to the Aston community. Apart from having to buy some items from AML at AML prices we will be trying to do these at closer to Ford type prices allowing for the fact that the engines have 12 of everything.
We will prove out the technology using 6 or so cars. Those early cars will be done at cost.
I am running the Hartech engineered rebuilt engine in my V12Vanquish.
Baz and I have opened up a DB7V, two VQ and one DB9 engine. All show combustion materials between steel liner and aluminium bore. Not on every cylinder and no two engines are the same.
It is my and Baz's belief that all V12's will have the issue to a greater or lesser degree. We have no reliable data as to whether any version of the engine is worse or better but anecdotal evidence suggest early DB9s are worse.
We also believe that the root cause of the "tick" is the liner going out of round and loading up the piston(s)
In order to eliminate the issue in the simpler (restricted development) race engines Prodrive stripped new engines and baked them in ovens while vertically loading the liners. Far too late for any of us to do that.
We opted to reliner the engine, Wet liners. Turns out that is EXACTLY what Prodrive did for the DBR9 engines that won Le Mans. However, they used steel liners not Nikasil.
We will be offering engine rebuilds at a sensible price as a service to the Aston community. Apart from having to buy some items from AML at AML prices we will be trying to do these at closer to Ford type prices allowing for the fact that the engines have 12 of everything.
We will prove out the technology using 6 or so cars. Those early cars will be done at cost.
Edited by Gbox on Monday 12th February 22:39
DB4DM said:
45 years ago I bought my rotbox for £X and within 2 years I'd spent 1.5X on maintenance
Anything is possible with an Aston especially a 160K miler. Nothing is impossible, but lots might be unaffordable!
Anything is possible with an Aston especially a 160K miler. Nothing is impossible, but lots might be unaffordable!
Many of us become very attached to our Aston Martins, so the money can sometimes be of secondary importance, especially for those with 'keepers'.
At least the car that you are referring to David, has appreciated strongly, so perhaps 1.5X was very well spent, if we are to talk about money.
My Vantage looked like new when purchased, so for 12 years it has just been a case of the usual maintenance and taking care of it as well as I can.
No 1.5X yet fortunately, but I doubt it will ever be as sought after as your beautiful Aston Martin..
G Box and Paulfrog, what about the so called ingestion of catalytic debris that has been touted for the last few years supposedly caused by engine misfire. Is this just an urban myth, if so why does BR advertise this as a reason for removing the primary cats? It begs the question and as per your report GBox there seems to be a more scientific examination of the reason than assuming it is just cat ingestion.
I had a 2010 db9 and it was always back of mind. Also I remember that AML lengthened the dip stick and changed the markings on the stick on older models as they were giving the wrong level of oil being about - 1 ltr. This caused issues with cylinders at the rear of the engine.
I now have a 2014 Vanquish and still wonder if it's a possibility that it may happen although I have now done 44,000 miles and she still purrs like a kitten.
I had a 2010 db9 and it was always back of mind. Also I remember that AML lengthened the dip stick and changed the markings on the stick on older models as they were giving the wrong level of oil being about - 1 ltr. This caused issues with cylinders at the rear of the engine.
I now have a 2014 Vanquish and still wonder if it's a possibility that it may happen although I have now done 44,000 miles and she still purrs like a kitten.
Astontony said:
G Box and Paulfrog, what about the so called ingestion of catalytic debris that has been touted for the last few years supposedly caused by engine misfire. Is this just an urban myth, if so why does BR advertise this as a reason for removing the primary cats? It begs the question and as per your report GBox there seems to be a more scientific examination of the reason than assuming it is just cat ingestion.
I had a 2010 db9 and it was always back of mind. Also I remember that AML lengthened the dip stick and changed the markings on the stick on older models as they were giving the wrong level of oil being about - 1 ltr. This caused issues with cylinders at the rear of the engine.
I now have a 2014 Vanquish and still wonder if it's a possibility that it may happen although I have now done 44,000 miles and she still purrs like a kitten.
"Tick" and cat ingestion are two totally different issues that are both real and affect the V12 engines with frequencies that are basically impossible to estimate accurately. Not related to each other in any way as far as I know. The concern that Richard (Gbox) raises is that the tick could affect any iteration of the V12 engine, not just the early versions before the oiling of the small end bearing was modified.I had a 2010 db9 and it was always back of mind. Also I remember that AML lengthened the dip stick and changed the markings on the stick on older models as they were giving the wrong level of oil being about - 1 ltr. This caused issues with cylinders at the rear of the engine.
I now have a 2014 Vanquish and still wonder if it's a possibility that it may happen although I have now done 44,000 miles and she still purrs like a kitten.
Astontony said:
G Box and Paulfrog, what about the so called ingestion of catalytic debris that has been touted for the last few years supposedly caused by engine misfire. Is this just an urban myth, if so why does BR advertise this as a reason for removing the primary cats? It begs the question and as per your report GBox there seems to be a more scientific examination of the reason than assuming it is just cat ingestion.
I had a 2010 db9 and it was always back of mind. Also I remember that AML lengthened the dip stick and changed the markings on the stick on older models as they were giving the wrong level of oil being about - 1 ltr. This caused issues with cylinders at the rear of the engine.
I now have a 2014 Vanquish and still wonder if it's a possibility that it may happen although I have now done 44,000 miles and she still purrs like a kitten.
This ticking is either piston slap or small end bush, nothing to do with cat ingestion, my primary cats were removed years ago.I had a 2010 db9 and it was always back of mind. Also I remember that AML lengthened the dip stick and changed the markings on the stick on older models as they were giving the wrong level of oil being about - 1 ltr. This caused issues with cylinders at the rear of the engine.
I now have a 2014 Vanquish and still wonder if it's a possibility that it may happen although I have now done 44,000 miles and she still purrs like a kitten.
I've also known about the possible oil starvation and always checked the oil regulary, my PCV valves were replaced at the same time as plugs and coils a year ago.
My point is my engine was in tip top condition with no issues and it still developed the tick.
Cat ingestion does happen, listening to some stories from owners and garages, the one i heard recently a Gaydon Vanquish owner took his car with some friends around europe and really drove it hard, he serviced it just before going at works service, part the way through the tour the car started spitting out parts of cat, his friend in the car behind him noticed material coming out of his exhaust, he pulled the car over and told his mate the car was losing power. The car was recovered back to the uk and the engine was compression tested and one whole bank had lost all compression and the other bank was down, replacement engine required.
paulrog1 said:
Cat ingestion does happen, listening to some stories from owners and garages, the one i heard recently a Gaydon Vanquish owner took his car with some friends around europe and really drove it hard, he serviced it just before going at works service, part the way through the tour the car started spitting out parts of cat, his friend in the car behind him noticed material coming out of his exhaust, he pulled the car over and told his mate the car was losing power. The car was recovered back to the uk and the engine was compression tested and one whole bank had lost all compression and the other bank was down, replacement engine required.
This has to be one of the clearest (though related second hand) stories confirming cat ingestion as an issue that I’ve heard in here. It references one of the most modern iterations of the V12 (Vanq), a pre health check, some hard use, evidence of debris out the exhaust, reported loss of power, recovery and confirmation of loss of compression. All needed would be evidence of catalyst material recovered from engine internals during stripdown - then that would be the most clear and independent example that the issue is ‘real’ that most would need.Do you know anything further? Did the individual in question or whoever underwrote the replacement engine cost follow up with an RCA (root cause a analysis)on his failed lump?
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