Discussion
Jon39 said:
waremark said:
Agent57 said:
I notice the clamshell bonnet is no more.
Apparently to meet more stringent pedestrian safety regs (front hinges were a problem) and also to enable more cooling.I doubt anyone here believes those feeble excuses.
Clamshell bonnet, rear hinged.
Is anyone aware of specific changes to pedestrian safety regulation? It would be european as EU has long led the world in terms of defining requirement and legislating on this stuff. I’m not aware of changes to EU 78 2009.
Maybe there are other reasons, I noted that the bonnet soft close is gone in that touchy feely video (can’t remember the acronym) so there’s a cost saving (and a bit less ‘ultra luxury’, tut tut Mr Stroll). The return to the smaller bonnet with separate wings/front panel may be beneficial in terms of cost though any saving is likely cancelled by replacing the one huge expensive panel with three.
If I had to guess I’d imagine they had real challenges with both cost and quality control with that huge aluminium pressing and decided to bin it as much for that reason as a base desire to reintroduce some of the lines, looks and frontal design cues (bonnet shut lines) from the DB9/Vanquish.
Edited by Calinours on Tuesday 13th June 08:47
AdamV12V said:
The DB12 is a considerably more attractive car and it doesn't have one…AM once again have a car which is now a very attractive package both inside and out.
I’m not so sure about it being ‘considerably more attractive’ Adam. It can look just as awkward in photos as the DB11 ever did (and from some angles, perhaps even more so). I do look forward to actually seeing it, especially on the inside. Externally, I suspect I will actually come to like the updated cars revised front just as much as I continue to like the more traditional, understated proportions of the cars original frontal design.
Having now taken the time to look through most of the reviews, this IMO is the most balanced and honest. There’s none of the hiding from (or just ignoring) the various elephants in the room.
https://youtu.be/HV7XsvlqRdc
I have to agree with the comments on the front end. Judging only on photos and video, I also prefer the DB11s frontal design to the new treatment, though I would still say the sweet spot remains the DBS. I am happy to keep my rather more elegant, soft closing and shut line free bonnet/front end, though I do wonder what those larger diameter and offset wheels and their PS5 tyres (presumably a bolt on upgrade) would do for my humble DB11’s looks and feel. It rather reminds me of the later Ronal 16” and how they look so much better on the Oscar India than the GKN 15”.
As the guys say, the company have focussed on all the earlier cars criticisms to create a near fully optimised DB11 V8 with the only slight negative being the lack of a V12 option and it’s noise. If they want to market as an all new car that’s entirely up to them. The market will decide if it cuts the mustard or otherwise. Let’s hope that the newly developed and bespoke high tech infotainment is actually fully developed and integrated by the time that deliveries commence, and proves to be reliable. As long as there’s no repeat of the last time AML tried a high tech interior (Lagonda), then on the evidence of the reviews, the DB12 should become a sales success.
https://youtu.be/HV7XsvlqRdc
I have to agree with the comments on the front end. Judging only on photos and video, I also prefer the DB11s frontal design to the new treatment, though I would still say the sweet spot remains the DBS. I am happy to keep my rather more elegant, soft closing and shut line free bonnet/front end, though I do wonder what those larger diameter and offset wheels and their PS5 tyres (presumably a bolt on upgrade) would do for my humble DB11’s looks and feel. It rather reminds me of the later Ronal 16” and how they look so much better on the Oscar India than the GKN 15”.
As the guys say, the company have focussed on all the earlier cars criticisms to create a near fully optimised DB11 V8 with the only slight negative being the lack of a V12 option and it’s noise. If they want to market as an all new car that’s entirely up to them. The market will decide if it cuts the mustard or otherwise. Let’s hope that the newly developed and bespoke high tech infotainment is actually fully developed and integrated by the time that deliveries commence, and proves to be reliable. As long as there’s no repeat of the last time AML tried a high tech interior (Lagonda), then on the evidence of the reviews, the DB12 should become a sales success.
Edited by Calinours on Saturday 8th July 18:34
RichB said:
Had a look inside DB12 at Goodwood yesterday, it was (I think) Volcano Red, looked good with the Oxford Tan leather and black. Very stylish.
Maybe it’s just the angle, but the centre console does look quite wide. Is the space for the drivers and front passengers legs not a bit compromised? It’s probably just the angle as none of the reviewers have mentioned anything.
Longy00000 said:
I was told it won't be called Vantage so maybe using the architecture of the Vantage to offer a slimmed down new entry level.car with more emphasis on sports and less on luxury. Who knows but I think they will go with the 6 pot engine for this 'new' model
So we have, developing, the un-vantage, a 3 litre, 6 cylinder, maybe 500hp, 2 seat entry level (but ultra luxury), maybe £160k base (stroll is on record saying no AM will start with a dollar price of anything less than a 2) Even with a nice new dash that seems to make something of a case for one of the older V8 cars.
Simpo Two said:
flow99 said:
Had a test drive in DB12 for an hour over Dartmoor this afternoon, and once away from the cows, sheep and grockles there was plenty of opportunity to push on, and it is simply leagues ahead dynamically than my old V12 DB11 and current DBS. Suspension is superb, really compliant when soft, and stiff but not too stiff in sports plus mode.
I'm intrigued by the way suspension is always better in every successive model of car. It brings to mind each iteration of washing powder washing whiter than the last one. AFAIK suspension is a combination of springs and shock absorbers - not exactly rocket science So what breakthroughs in technology have occurred between now and when the DB11 was launched that makes springs and shock absorbers be so much better?Mind you I have a DB9 with Sports Pack suspension; it's like sitting in a small room being beaten by giants with hammers.
Developments in active dynamic chassis control in the last decade are more around active engine mounts and rear wheel steering, for spring/damper suspension systems, development has really just been in increasing the sophistication of the ‘active’ element, adding sensors, broadening maps and improving calibration which seems to be the key change for the later Bilstien systems in the DB12.
What seems to have got the journalists and others so excited about the DB12 is that it has clearly been repositioned to be far more sporty than GT, from the comments of others the chassis has been tweaked in order that the dynamic attributes are more aligned with the Vantage, so much stiffer bushes or even solidly mounted front/rear subframes etc, that would of course sharpen up the feel especially with those new tyres and later shockers, however that would normally come with some sort of cost in terms of comfort or ride, or noise, vibration and harshness (NVH).
In line with the then product differentiation strategy the original DB11 was designed and engineered to be much softer and more compliant/comfortable, more of a pure GT, with the sharper tool, or much more sporting option being the Vantage. With the benefit of hindsight we see that AML quickly saw the approach of going too comfortable with the DB11 to be something of a mistake, and made some chassis tweaks with the later V8 engined car, which were then pretty quickly copied to the V12 car with sportier ‘sport and sport plus’ engine, transmission and active suspension maps. They even renamed the V12 as the AMR as a result, then quietly changed it back to V12 a few years later. They got themselves into an awful muddle really, looking back. It’s no wonder customer confidence takes a knock and second hand values suffer.
If they have managed to very significantly sharpen up the updated version of the V8 engined car without compromising ride and NVH then it is going to be a bit of a result and good for them. I for one just wonder how they will differentiate the Vantage given how similar the two cars may well end up being. It would be somewhat ironic if the product strategy ends up coming full circle. AP’s mum would not be impressed
Product differentiation with the new new Vantage aside, the DB12, with its modern and fresh new dash and front end plus other bits like the new mirrors and its sharper profile/stance with the new track and those new wheels and tyres looks like it will go down very well. If Stroll is able to sell high numbers for a huge price premium over the DB11 V8 and have developed his new tech sufficiently to avoid loads of costly recalls, warranty issues and negative reports, well, then hats off to him. Let’s just hope they do get their snazzy bespoke new infotainment interface working properly. The challenge would appear relatively straightforward on the face of it, once you have developed your all new driver interface or ‘front end’, you then just have to get it to remain stable and always talk seamlessly with the Mercedes architecture that will inevitably still be sitting behind it. However, as any developer will of course know, even the simplest project is never straightforward, and this one will not be a particularly simple software development and integration project.
Edited by Calinours on Wednesday 23 August 09:01
M1AGM said:
There was a black db12 freshly delivered at Leeds today. Looks nice in the flesh, from the front wheels back it looks so similar to the 11. Sales chap said the 12 was 80% different parts from the 11. Possibly, did they change the bolt and screw sizes?
Marketing. It’s likely 80% by part mass the same car as the DB11 V8, it has bigger turbos a new front end and new dash, and has the Vantage ediff and front subframe, rear hinge bonnet etc. The new dash/infotainment is quite an effort, it seems great, but let’s hope they get it working and it continues to work reliably for the life of the car…….We swang by AM Works on Friday after wild camping in Newport Pagnell Thursday night. Had a quick look at the one on the forecourt. Salesman was happy to let me get in and fire it up, but was scratching his head about who had left an old camper van in the customer car park… 
As Clarkson famously said of the 2007 DBS they have taken every little piece and made it a little bit better than the DB9 on which it was based. The DB12 is similar, but goes further than the DBS with the revised front end and all new dash, stuff like the ceramic brakes and better dampers remind of the DBS, though we have a fancy new dash instead of carbon bodywork. There’s lots of nice little detail touches, the AM writing on the lights and especially side strakes which reminds me of the 70s V8. The new mirrors and self-presenting but otherwise same door handles are nice touches. The bigger wheels and even lower profile Michelins do make the car look more purposeful and will be a popular DB11 upgrade. The engine was too muted for me but the interior is great, obviously this is a well specced car but I have to admit to being very impressed with it. I particularly liked the new interior door handles. The interior is fantastic, the infotainment tech felt ultra modern and very high quality. That’s what LS said he wanted to resolve so fair play to him and his team, that’s exactly what has been done.
I’m still not entirely sold on the frontal restyle, I think at least on the top half my DB11 is more elegant, but I admit the lower half of the car is better, the smaller and better integrated front spoiler, and spoiler and bigger sills being body colour is a better look. For me the new bonnet shut lines are a backward step, the DBSS showed how it could be done. Also it’s a little sad they no longer serially produce their own engines and have to buy in, the good news is that the AE31 and its derivatives will continue in low volume UK production for the specials.
Overall, great job. Judging by the reviews they are all set to sell quite a few.
As Clarkson famously said of the 2007 DBS they have taken every little piece and made it a little bit better than the DB9 on which it was based. The DB12 is similar, but goes further than the DBS with the revised front end and all new dash, stuff like the ceramic brakes and better dampers remind of the DBS, though we have a fancy new dash instead of carbon bodywork. There’s lots of nice little detail touches, the AM writing on the lights and especially side strakes which reminds me of the 70s V8. The new mirrors and self-presenting but otherwise same door handles are nice touches. The bigger wheels and even lower profile Michelins do make the car look more purposeful and will be a popular DB11 upgrade. The engine was too muted for me but the interior is great, obviously this is a well specced car but I have to admit to being very impressed with it. I particularly liked the new interior door handles. The interior is fantastic, the infotainment tech felt ultra modern and very high quality. That’s what LS said he wanted to resolve so fair play to him and his team, that’s exactly what has been done.
I’m still not entirely sold on the frontal restyle, I think at least on the top half my DB11 is more elegant, but I admit the lower half of the car is better, the smaller and better integrated front spoiler, and spoiler and bigger sills being body colour is a better look. For me the new bonnet shut lines are a backward step, the DBSS showed how it could be done. Also it’s a little sad they no longer serially produce their own engines and have to buy in, the good news is that the AE31 and its derivatives will continue in low volume UK production for the specials.
Overall, great job. Judging by the reviews they are all set to sell quite a few.
AML can’t put the AE31 in the DB12 because it does not meet global emissions requirements, it could, but the investment required to get it to the relevant standards has not been made. The money went instead on new infotainment. Thus - as far as fully homologated serial production goes, the AE31 V12 is dead.
There is an exception for full Homologation for production runs of less than 100 vehicles. Hence they can launch Valour etc with the V12. This will continue - the V12 will continue (demand permitting) to be seen in high end limited edition ‘specials’ such as the Valour where advantage can be taken of the rules regarding very limited production. Thus, in future, if you want a V12 you will need deep pockets, or buy second hand.
I had guessed the very limited run V12 engines for the specials would now be assembled by Cosworth, it isn’t them, it is a different specialist UK ICE engine assembler/builder - Autocraft, who are a similar outfit to Ricardo. These guys will be building the small batch run AE31 V12 engines in the UK for example the engines for the confirmed orders for the Valour.
There is an exception for full Homologation for production runs of less than 100 vehicles. Hence they can launch Valour etc with the V12. This will continue - the V12 will continue (demand permitting) to be seen in high end limited edition ‘specials’ such as the Valour where advantage can be taken of the rules regarding very limited production. Thus, in future, if you want a V12 you will need deep pockets, or buy second hand.
I had guessed the very limited run V12 engines for the specials would now be assembled by Cosworth, it isn’t them, it is a different specialist UK ICE engine assembler/builder - Autocraft, who are a similar outfit to Ricardo. These guys will be building the small batch run AE31 V12 engines in the UK for example the engines for the confirmed orders for the Valour.
It seems the issue for the V12 was the WLTP, which effectively meant a particulate filter, also later versions of EU6. Likely an all new injection strategy, possibly direct injection.
The AMG V8 has had a PPF for a few years, even the one in the old new Vantage from around 2020. It does affect the noise a fair bit.
https://www.carthrottle.com/news/what-are-petrol-p...
The AMG V8 has had a PPF for a few years, even the one in the old new Vantage from around 2020. It does affect the noise a fair bit.
https://www.carthrottle.com/news/what-are-petrol-p...
Ninja59 said:
Mushroom12 said:
I had a chat with my Aston man today, and he's a bit pissed at the whole DB12 situation. Long story short, at events he's had people willing to put down cash now, for ASAP delivery, but the only cars avalible are Black or Silver, and in ? months rather than a few weeks. So these people walk away and get something else.
DBX is just unmovable and prices are sinking like a stone.
I think the aggressive schedule of launch on the DB12 has not been helping things combined with other factors really.DBX is just unmovable and prices are sinking like a stone.
1) Launch press cars were not finished to an even higher degree than some road testers truly knew. It is semi pointless drawing too much insight from the traction control side of things on them (and therefore mode changes) because those cars were running modified DB11 software to simply have something on them
2) Sales teams were left floundering without demos of any description for ages post those reviews, because there was no cars in a finished enough state to send to dealers (and even then most at dealers that are on the private plates) are actually pre production cars still owned by Gaydon NOT the dealers.
3) Number 2 was impacted because of the new Star network, many new modules on the network and some incomptent outsourced software suppliers and also regarding TC systems an initial blame game between Bosch and MB.
4) Certain incidents on the production line or during testing, usually as a result of contractors from what I have heard sadly (think stupid stuff like blocking drain holes, coolant lines not being secured upto and including a few customer cars being crashed in and outside the factory)
5) AM's decision to focus on Federal vehicles initially over other regions
Prices on DBX will fall further once the MCF is out, but in my honest opinion a used one might represent a good deal for some.
Edited by Ninja59 on Thursday 14th December 18:58
Indeed some raved about how the nanny systems were improved and it seems they were still more or less the original DB11 systems.
Of course AM have to go after sales, but it is cynical that the updated car is loudly and expensively launched to the world as an all new car with a new name but internally it is called what it actually is - DB11 (V8) mid cycle facelift. Journalists and ‘influencers’ flown to the South of France, put in hotels with er, ‘gifts’ etc.
Previously it would have been a DB11.2 like DB9.2, very similarly updated with tuned engine, refreshed front end, newer suspension and updated dash. I think we can all be certain of who insisted on an all new name and so much money spent on marketing spin and advertising..
Whatever, it was a little depressing to hear from Ninja of the issues with all the new infotainment/electronics. Let’s hope it gets properly sorted as opposed to fudged with owners left to complete development and debugging... AML certainly have form with new North American tech hungry owners biting off more than they could chew in this respect
(Lagonda)RichB said:
Jon39 said:
DB11 to DB11 facelift, becomes DB12.
To be fair, this has happened before, probably on more than one occasion. DB4GT <to> DB5
Indeed and perhaps at a less heady height than the DB4 GT the DB4 Vantage to DB5.To be fair, this has happened before, probably on more than one occasion. DB4GT <to> DB5
Following your logic of ‘they did it in the 60s’ - we should also expect a hand built english engine and hand rolled aluminium panels (from an english wheel) on the DB12?
Jon39 said:
Calinours said:
But that was the 60s. 60 years ago. Another time, another epoch. In car design and life terms another planet.
Following your logic of ‘they did it in the 60s’ - we should also expect a hand built English engine and hand rolled aluminium panels (from an English wheel) on the DB12?
Following your logic of ‘they did it in the 60s’ - we should also expect a hand built English engine and hand rolled aluminium panels (from an English wheel) on the DB12?
I am sure that you must have understood my simple point Calinours, but your comment appears completely unconnected.
It is Friday night though so no worries, as they say down under.
When William Wilson and ‘Company Developments’ took over the ailing company from David Brown in the early 70s - the first thing Wilson did was restyle the front of the then similarly aged DBS V8 and drop the ‘DBS’ name to remove all reference back to David Brown. Hence our early 70s peers got the ‘new’ Aston Martin V8 and it’s Mustang inspired frontal restyle.
I guess it’s therefore entirely natural that Stroll Snr would be keen to put some clear daylight between the stuff he will be seen to be responsible for and the stuff credited to the man he forced out.
Jon39 said:
Certainly agree that name marketing is powerful.
I am sure more DB12 cars will be sold, than if the model was called a DB11 facelift.
New is desirable and new sells.
We only have to look into other areas of consumer goods.
NEW
NOT NEW, but it gives the impression that Queen Elizabeth preferred this one.
Remeber the introduction of all new and of course much improved ‘filtered’ (sorry ‘cold filtered’) beer back in the 90’s ?
https://youtu.be/4WUcA03X9AY?si=rlySVHsDH0HdvGSM
Recently I started seeing ads for the newest and bestest new thing in beer, no prizes for guessing….
https://youtu.be/Mk0M2513kgs?si=S6imDOkE24AkRXMy
Ahhhh, I feel the need to rewatch the Richard E Grant classic with the talking boil…..
From looking through all the recent posts, and I do hate to say this, but it is starting to look like AML may just have tried to bite off a little more than they can chew with the new infotainment and electrical architecture. Cars in dealers for sale suggests buyers who have paid deposits maybe are either running out of patience or getting the jitters and backing out.. Having said it, I do sincerely hope the ‘hunch’ is completely wrong.
Design, development and functional validation are only part of the story when anything is created. Then the real test is long term durability and robustness. As a mechanical engineer I’ve led the design development of many mainly mechanical systems, and don’t in any way claim to be any kind of software or systems integration expert, though I have led the development of power station operational management and bespoke systems integration software, so I know maybe a little bit, though as we know a little knowledge is a dangerous thing
To have this many requirements for continual update at this stage is suggesting that there may be some fundamental issues that have resulted from rushed development to unrealistic deadlines. If a manager demands that something goes live (ie for a product demonstration) the engineers will make it happen via sticking plasters - but often the rush will mean there are inbuilt and insurmountable problems requiring a fundamental reappraisal of some aspect of the architecture.
I hope more than anything that this isn’t remotely the case, and they do somehow manage to sort it all out, and deliver cars with interior systems that work properly and then continue to work reliably for many years (itself a new and different challenge) with the over the air updates. Because if not, the launch customers may be taking a huge gamble. A 3 year warranty runs out very quickly. I couldn’t see AML surviving an American class action lawsuit.
Design, development and functional validation are only part of the story when anything is created. Then the real test is long term durability and robustness. As a mechanical engineer I’ve led the design development of many mainly mechanical systems, and don’t in any way claim to be any kind of software or systems integration expert, though I have led the development of power station operational management and bespoke systems integration software, so I know maybe a little bit, though as we know a little knowledge is a dangerous thing
To have this many requirements for continual update at this stage is suggesting that there may be some fundamental issues that have resulted from rushed development to unrealistic deadlines. If a manager demands that something goes live (ie for a product demonstration) the engineers will make it happen via sticking plasters - but often the rush will mean there are inbuilt and insurmountable problems requiring a fundamental reappraisal of some aspect of the architecture.
I hope more than anything that this isn’t remotely the case, and they do somehow manage to sort it all out, and deliver cars with interior systems that work properly and then continue to work reliably for many years (itself a new and different challenge) with the over the air updates. Because if not, the launch customers may be taking a huge gamble. A 3 year warranty runs out very quickly. I couldn’t see AML surviving an American class action lawsuit.
Edited by Calinours on Friday 5th January 10:02
atrossity said:
I run a software company myself, and our first releases of any new major versions have always had bugs and issues despite all our QA efforts. But we've always also managed to deliver all required fixes and updates in good time. It's the same for all the big software companies. Hoffman's famous quote holds some truth: "If you are not embarrassed by the first version of your [software] product, you've launched too late."
So, if it's just software, and AM's over-the-air update system is robust, I will choose to be optimistic about the DB12. (If there are major mechanical/hardware issues, that's another thing, but given that AM's not new to building cars I will be optimistic about that as well). And I don’t doubt it's complex - there are likely many layers of software involved, from the old reliable core systems that have changed little over the years up to the brand new shiny infotainment sitting at the top. I'm guessing that AM's new developments are mainly at the upper layers of the stack, which are the most straightforward to update. (From experience, even the most rushed sticking plasters in the upper layers are fully fixable in time.)
It's no surprise that the press cars in Monaco were not fully-baked, given they were running on Beta (Alpha?) software. And it is likely that some of the dealer demo cars delivered in Autumn are indeed multiple software versions behind at this stage (My dealer originally said their demo car had to be sent back to Gaydon just for software updates, but apparently that ended up not being the case and it will be updated in-house).
I could be proven wrong, but like I said I am going to be optimistic, and can't wait to drive home my DB12 next week.
It's sad in a way that AM are no longer providing their own engine, etc. But I think they made the right choice to focus on software for a while. Like many industries, the future is going to be primarily about software imo. I think lagging too far behind on software would be the beginning of the end for a luxury car manufacturer (if AM were still using an out-of-date Mercedes system in the DB12, I for one wouldn’t be buying one). And who knows, maybe AM will build a great software platform, keep it evolving effectively and efficiently, and they will perhaps find the time to make engines again.
Great post and good luck - OP So, if it's just software, and AM's over-the-air update system is robust, I will choose to be optimistic about the DB12. (If there are major mechanical/hardware issues, that's another thing, but given that AM's not new to building cars I will be optimistic about that as well). And I don’t doubt it's complex - there are likely many layers of software involved, from the old reliable core systems that have changed little over the years up to the brand new shiny infotainment sitting at the top. I'm guessing that AM's new developments are mainly at the upper layers of the stack, which are the most straightforward to update. (From experience, even the most rushed sticking plasters in the upper layers are fully fixable in time.)
It's no surprise that the press cars in Monaco were not fully-baked, given they were running on Beta (Alpha?) software. And it is likely that some of the dealer demo cars delivered in Autumn are indeed multiple software versions behind at this stage (My dealer originally said their demo car had to be sent back to Gaydon just for software updates, but apparently that ended up not being the case and it will be updated in-house).
I could be proven wrong, but like I said I am going to be optimistic, and can't wait to drive home my DB12 next week.
It's sad in a way that AM are no longer providing their own engine, etc. But I think they made the right choice to focus on software for a while. Like many industries, the future is going to be primarily about software imo. I think lagging too far behind on software would be the beginning of the end for a luxury car manufacturer (if AM were still using an out-of-date Mercedes system in the DB12, I for one wouldn’t be buying one). And who knows, maybe AM will build a great software platform, keep it evolving effectively and efficiently, and they will perhaps find the time to make engines again.
kbaillie said:
Happy new owner of a custom-spec'ed DB12 Coupe here! It's my first Aston, and I'm pretty smitten with it already.
Looking forward to being part of this community!
Well done, lovely spec and colour. Welcome toLooking forward to being part of this community!
the world of AM ownership. The cars can get under your skin in a way few others can.
I guess that’s one issue with them becoming so large. I often wonder where it is going to end, 30yrs ago 16” was a large wheel. My Calibra turbo was upgraded to 17”, the two 911’s had 18”, the Vantage 19”, the DB11 20” and now we are at 21” with DB12. OK for the exports I guess but it’ll be more stressful on the UK’s 3rd world roads. My Rangie has 22” wheels and to me these start to look a bit too much even on that.
But, we likes ‘em big… BIG!
https://youtu.be/QRCmLpNiw34?si=MNuTahPLsxYFKscg
Benny Hill, Michael Caine and DB4 - 3 national treasures in 20 seconds
But, we likes ‘em big… BIG!
https://youtu.be/QRCmLpNiw34?si=MNuTahPLsxYFKscg
Benny Hill, Michael Caine and DB4 - 3 national treasures in 20 seconds
Edited by Calinours on Friday 19th January 14:08
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