speeding again,could blackpool be liable?
Discussion
NIP through the post this morning.
I have sent my car back three times to Blackpool to get my speedo fixed.
Every time it was returned to me with the same problem and I am currently waiting for them to get back from hols and fit a new sensor.
Its my only car and have no idea what speed im travelling at and usually base it on the car infront.
On the day in question I was on my tod.
Just wondered if Blackpool could be liable?
I have sent my car back three times to Blackpool to get my speedo fixed.
Every time it was returned to me with the same problem and I am currently waiting for them to get back from hols and fit a new sensor.
Its my only car and have no idea what speed im travelling at and usually base it on the car infront.
On the day in question I was on my tod.
Just wondered if Blackpool could be liable?
Tin man said:
NIP through the post this morning.
I have sent my car back three times to Blackpool to get my speedo fixed.
Every time it was returned to me with the same problem and I am currently waiting for them to get back from hols and fit a new sensor.
Its my only car and have no idea what speed im travelling at and usually base it on the car infront.
On the day in question I was on my tod.
Just wondered if Blackpool could be liable?
The answer is no. Oh..and go and guy a GPS that can display speed. Then at least you've got something to help you judge...
Tin man said:
NIP through the post this morning.
I have sent my car back three times to Blackpool to get my speedo fixed.
Every time it was returned to me with the same problem and I am currently waiting for them to get back from hols and fit a new sensor.
Its my only car and have no idea what speed im travelling at and usually base it on the car infront.
On the day in question I was on my tod.
Just wondered if Blackpool could be liable?
No way I'm afraid. You could though claim a defence of mechanical defect, which you would have to provide evidence of - the garage fault report etc. If however you are driving the car after the fault has occurred in the knowledge that the fault is present, then unless you can show that the fault occurred on that journey and that you were now on the way to a garage to get it fixed/ on the way home to get the vehicle off the road.... you can't use that defence.
As it seems from your post, you are aware of the problem/fault then I'm afraid you are liable for the offence with no defence open to you... you should not be driving the vehicle..
It's an offence :
Use motor vehicle speedometer not maintained in good working order
Contrary to regulation 36(1) of the Road Vehicles (Construction and Use) Regulations 1986, section 42 of the Road Traffic Act 1988 and Schedule 2 to the Road Traffic Offenders Act 1988.
Sorry
Tivster
Don said:
NIP through the post this morning.
I have sent my car back three times to Blackpool to get my speedo fixed.
Every time it was returned to me with the same problem and I am currently waiting for them to get back from hols and fit a new sensor.
Its my only car and have no idea what speed im travelling at and usually base it on the car infront.
On the day in question I was on my tod.
Just wondered if Blackpool could be liable?
The answer is no. Oh..and go and guy a GPS that can display speed. Then at least you've got something to help you judge...
Bad advice - still an offence - see above...
Tivster said:
Bad advice - still an offence - see above...
So if you have a more accurate speedometer than the one built into the car and use it to ensure that you are not speeding....
If you are stopped...having a defective mechanical speedometer is an offence? Clearly the speedo should work but is it actually illegal to drive without one...???
Don said:
Tivster said:
Bad advice - still an offence - see above...
So if you have a more accurate speedometer than the one built into the car and use it to ensure that you are not speeding....
If you are stopped...having a defective mechanical speedometer is an offence? Clearly the speedo should work but is it actually illegal to drive without one...???
To simplify... each time you drive with a vehicle in a defective state you commit an offence. If you are aware of the defect and the potential effects of driving with such a defect, you may find that not only could you be prosecuted for Defective Speedometer , but owing to your continued negligence, you may find yourself on the end of something more serious... Certainly repeated offences of the same nature illustrate a repetitive course of conduct which will increase fines and punishment substantially. May also affect your insurance on the grounds that you were negligent over the maintenance of your vehicle contrary to the Construction and Use Regs...
A GPS based device is not a substitute for a fitted and functioning speedometer, designed and fitted for the sole purpose of fulfilling that function..
You could try it on, but IMO it wouldn't swing it..
>> Edited by Tivster on Friday 22 August 13:12
Regulation 35 of the Road Vehicles (Construction and Use) Regulations 1986 creates the requirement for motor vehicles
See also regulations relating to the maintenance of speedometers
35(1) Every motor vehicle shall be fitted with a speedometer which, if the vehicle is first used on or after 1st April 1984, shall be capable of indicating speed in both miles per hour and kilometres per hour, either simultaneously or, by the operation of a switch, separately, unless exempted by paragraphs (2) and (3) of this regulation.
NOTE:
This regulation shall not apply to a vehicle in respect of which a passenger vehicle approval certificate has been issued under the Motor Vehicles (Approval) Regulations 1996, if it complies with or is exempt from the approval requirements relating to speedometers.
(2) Paragraph (1) above does not apply to:
(a) a vehicle having a maximum speed not exceeding 25 mph;
(b) a vehicle which it is at all times unlawful to drive at more than 25 mph;
(c) an agricultural motor vehicle which is not driven at more than 20 mph;
(d) a motor cycle first used before 1st April 1984 the engine of which has a cylinder capacity not exceeding 100 cc;
(e) an invalid carriage first used before 1st April 1984;
(f) a works truck first used before 1st April 1984;
(g) a vehicle first used before 1st October 1937; or
(h) a vehicle equipped with a tachograph which bears the correct approval marks and complies with the requirements relating to the speed indications of the vehicle and installations specified in the Community Recording Equipment Regulation.
(3) Instead of complying with paragraph 35(1) a vehicle may comply with Community Directive 97/39 or with ECE Regulation 39.
And
Regulation 36 of the Road Vehicles (Construction and Use) Regulations 1986 provides for the maintenance of a speedometer fitted to a motor vehicle.
See also regulations regarding the requirement to have a speedometer fitted.
36(1) Every instrument for indicating speed fitted to a motor vehicle:
(a) in compliance with the requirements of regulation 35(1) or (3); or
(b) to which regulation 35(2)(h) relates and which is not, under the Community Recording Equipment Regulation,
required to be equipped with the recording equipment mentioned in that paragraph,
shall be kept free from any obstruction which might prevent its being easily read and shall at all material times be maintained in good working order.
(2) ALL MATERIAL TIMES
In this regulation means all times when the motor vehicle is in use on a road except when:
(a) the vehicle is being used on a journey during which, as a result of a defect, the instrument ceased to be in good working order; or
(b) as a result of a defect, the instrument has ceased to be in good working order and steps have been taken to have the vehicle equipped with all reasonable expedition, by means of repairs or replacement, with an instrument which is in good working order.
The subsection in bold is the defence I outlined above that could be argued but due to timescale I don't think it would wash..
Tivster
>> Edited by Tivster on Friday 22 August 13:21
See also regulations relating to the maintenance of speedometers
35(1) Every motor vehicle shall be fitted with a speedometer which, if the vehicle is first used on or after 1st April 1984, shall be capable of indicating speed in both miles per hour and kilometres per hour, either simultaneously or, by the operation of a switch, separately, unless exempted by paragraphs (2) and (3) of this regulation.
NOTE:
This regulation shall not apply to a vehicle in respect of which a passenger vehicle approval certificate has been issued under the Motor Vehicles (Approval) Regulations 1996, if it complies with or is exempt from the approval requirements relating to speedometers.
(2) Paragraph (1) above does not apply to:
(a) a vehicle having a maximum speed not exceeding 25 mph;
(b) a vehicle which it is at all times unlawful to drive at more than 25 mph;
(c) an agricultural motor vehicle which is not driven at more than 20 mph;
(d) a motor cycle first used before 1st April 1984 the engine of which has a cylinder capacity not exceeding 100 cc;
(e) an invalid carriage first used before 1st April 1984;
(f) a works truck first used before 1st April 1984;
(g) a vehicle first used before 1st October 1937; or
(h) a vehicle equipped with a tachograph which bears the correct approval marks and complies with the requirements relating to the speed indications of the vehicle and installations specified in the Community Recording Equipment Regulation.
(3) Instead of complying with paragraph 35(1) a vehicle may comply with Community Directive 97/39 or with ECE Regulation 39.
And
Regulation 36 of the Road Vehicles (Construction and Use) Regulations 1986 provides for the maintenance of a speedometer fitted to a motor vehicle.
See also regulations regarding the requirement to have a speedometer fitted.
36(1) Every instrument for indicating speed fitted to a motor vehicle:
(a) in compliance with the requirements of regulation 35(1) or (3); or
(b) to which regulation 35(2)(h) relates and which is not, under the Community Recording Equipment Regulation,
required to be equipped with the recording equipment mentioned in that paragraph,
shall be kept free from any obstruction which might prevent its being easily read and shall at all material times be maintained in good working order.
(2) ALL MATERIAL TIMES
In this regulation means all times when the motor vehicle is in use on a road except when:
(a) the vehicle is being used on a journey during which, as a result of a defect, the instrument ceased to be in good working order; or
(b) as a result of a defect, the instrument has ceased to be in good working order and steps have been taken to have the vehicle equipped with all reasonable expedition, by means of repairs or replacement, with an instrument which is in good working order.
The subsection in bold is the defence I outlined above that could be argued but due to timescale I don't think it would wash..
Tivster
>> Edited by Tivster on Friday 22 August 13:21
Tivster said:
To simplify... each time you drive with a vehicle in a defective state you commit an offence.
Surely that depends on the defect? I mean - if the interior courtesy light isn't working... I understand if the brakes have a known problem or the tyres are bald or the throttle cable sticks open and you knowingly drive then that will see you with points on your licence...but a speedo? I suspect in these current times you are quite correct but this "defect" business seems open to interpretation...or is it? Could one, in theory, be prosecuted for a defective glove comparment bulb...
Tivster said:
If you are aware of the defect and the potential effects of driving with such a defect, you may find that not only could you be prosecuted for Defective Speedometer , but owing to your continued negligence, you may find yourself on the end of something more serious... Certainly repeated offences of the same nature illustrate a repetitive course of conduct which will increase fines and punishment substantially. May also affect your insurance on the grounds that you were negligent over the maintenance of your vehicle contrary to the Construction and Use Regs...
A GPS based device is not a substitute for a fitted and functioning speedometer, designed and fitted for the sole purpose of fulfilling that function..
You could try it on, but IMO it wouldn't swing it..
Clearly a GPS is NOT a subsititute - for the reasons that it cannot work in tunnels and so on and would therefore not be continually available. But, although I am sure you are correct, it would seem harsh to prosecute for a bust speedo if the driver was taking all reasonable precautions to drive within the law.
Clearly - if the driver speeds and is caught then that is an offence...it would seem harsh to add the offence of a defective speedo to the situation - rather than just ruling it out as a defence...
Useful to know, though. Thanks...Tivster said:
(2) ALL MATERIAL TIMES
In this regulation means all times when the motor vehicle is in use on a road except when:
(a) the vehicle is being used on a journey during which, as a result of a defect, the instrument ceased to be in good working order; or
(b) as a result of a defect, the instrument has ceased to be in good working order and steps have been taken to have the vehicle equipped with all reasonable expedition, by means of repairs or replacement, with an instrument which is in good working order.
The subsection in bold is the defence I outlined above that could be argued but due to timescale I don't think it would wash..
Tivster
All reasonable means to replace the defective speedo. Hmmmn. So you've ordered a new one from TVR. Due to be fitted when it arrives. They drag their heels.
Can you drive the car? The wording you quote would seem to suggest that you can as you have done everything reasonable to acquire a replacement...
I suppose it would depend on the reasonableness of what had been done to repair the defect.
"Reasonable" is an interesting word and has resulted in a few interesting long conversations with my legal friends. People seem to know what reasonable is, but its dam hard to describe it!
As for expediance, well that's defined as "Speed in performance; promptness" so were you prompt in getting it fixed, and was it reasonable how prompt you were.
Don't you just love the law makers!!!!
At the end of the day it's down to the belief of the Beak runnin the case if they believe it was reasonable.
Where's Derestrictor when you need him to give us the insight into reasonableness!
J
"Reasonable" is an interesting word and has resulted in a few interesting long conversations with my legal friends. People seem to know what reasonable is, but its dam hard to describe it!
As for expediance, well that's defined as "Speed in performance; promptness" so were you prompt in getting it fixed, and was it reasonable how prompt you were.
Don't you just love the law makers!!!!
At the end of the day it's down to the belief of the Beak runnin the case if they believe it was reasonable.
Where's Derestrictor when you need him to give us the insight into reasonableness!
J
Don...not all vehicle defects vis a vis interior light etc.. come under the Con and Use Regs. The speedo however does get a mention as do windscreen wipers IIRC.
I think in this specific case - i.e. the repetitive nature of the fault and the obvious timescale, our man would be hard pressed to convince the bench that it is being dealt with expeditiously... Now if only the factory could supply an expert witness from their Stores Dept... he may get away with it.
But the bottom line is without a speedo you don't know how fast you are travelling and others - who may have the job of deciding guilt - may think that to drive in that condition would be foolhardy... hence the advice not to drive it...
Tivster
I think in this specific case - i.e. the repetitive nature of the fault and the obvious timescale, our man would be hard pressed to convince the bench that it is being dealt with expeditiously... Now if only the factory could supply an expert witness from their Stores Dept... he may get away with it.
But the bottom line is without a speedo you don't know how fast you are travelling and others - who may have the job of deciding guilt - may think that to drive in that condition would be foolhardy... hence the advice not to drive it...
Tivster
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