Nitron "Comfort" kit?
Discussion
Here we go...
It looks like I am going to need new dampers on the T350. Options are the standard Bilstein setup from Blackdown or maybe the Nitron "Comfort" kit offered by Powers.
Has anyone got the Nitron comfort kit on their car? Thoughts? Is it worth the extra £600 over the Bilsteins?
It's mainly for road use.
It looks like I am going to need new dampers on the T350. Options are the standard Bilstein setup from Blackdown or maybe the Nitron "Comfort" kit offered by Powers.
Has anyone got the Nitron comfort kit on their car? Thoughts? Is it worth the extra £600 over the Bilsteins?
It's mainly for road use.
Edited by non_linear on Monday 27th March 12:42
Due to lack of replies. My generic viewpoint. I like Bilsteins. There is a lot of hype and generally poorly informed chat, in my view. Nitrons have an almost religious zeal surrounding them! I suspect there are few informed, independent and measured views published, but loads of opinions.
Most folks also don’t want or need adjustable damping. They get randomly set and left then rust up in one position.
But, many (most?) will disagree.
Best
Nic
Most folks also don’t want or need adjustable damping. They get randomly set and left then rust up in one position.
But, many (most?) will disagree.
Best
Nic
For what it’s worth, my T350 has adjustable Nitron’s, and the car has been set up by Powers at last service.
The car came with them when I purchased it.
On a smooth well maintained road the car does handle beautifully and the damping is fine.
However I live in the west of Scotland and the roads are a joke.
Going out for a wee spin requires a lot of forward concentration to avoid the ruts and potholes, and god forbid you do catch something at speed, then it’s goodbye to one of your spiders.
When I do finally get round to a chassis refurb, I will be replacing the Nitrons with Bilsteins as I don’t need the firmer damping or adjustability.
I suppose it depends on where and how you use your car.
The car came with them when I purchased it.
On a smooth well maintained road the car does handle beautifully and the damping is fine.
However I live in the west of Scotland and the roads are a joke.
Going out for a wee spin requires a lot of forward concentration to avoid the ruts and potholes, and god forbid you do catch something at speed, then it’s goodbye to one of your spiders.
When I do finally get round to a chassis refurb, I will be replacing the Nitrons with Bilsteins as I don’t need the firmer damping or adjustability.
I suppose it depends on where and how you use your car.
If it's mainly road use and you don't want to mess about with the settings for the fun of it then I'd go for the Bilsteins. It's not just the upfront cost difference on the Nitrons either as they really need servicing every few years at around £100 a corner, or you can neglect them for a few years like mine and pay a lot more!
The next question is, do you go standard Bilstein/Eibachs or slightly firmer from the Tuscan S? I've been looking into this as I will be replacing the dealer fit AVO's as part of my refurb project.
I notice that Str8six have a fully restored low mileage one owner 2001 Tuscan for sale at £70k, and the advert says; 'The latest specification Bilstein Sport dampers and progressive rate Eibach springs were installed. The original setup was devised by Lee Noble for the MK3 Tuscan S. However, slight improvements have been made over the years and the solution installed in 15 TVR is the best available for any road- based Tuscan. Str8Six’s revised suspension geometry has also been utilised during the rebuild.'
You can just about make out the rear Eibach part number as D0896, which is the S rear spring part number. So assuming the set-up is as follows:
Front
D0117 Dark Green Eibach springs (same as non S springs) (set to lowest perch from bottom)
C0968 Bilstein Shocks
Rear
D0896 Dark Blue Eibach springs (set to 3rd perch from bottom)
D0894 Bilstein Shocks
I'm pretty sure this is the set-up I will be choosing. I believe Str8six are currently developing a new spring/damper set-up not Bilstein based also...
Does Ben do group buys...?
I notice that Str8six have a fully restored low mileage one owner 2001 Tuscan for sale at £70k, and the advert says; 'The latest specification Bilstein Sport dampers and progressive rate Eibach springs were installed. The original setup was devised by Lee Noble for the MK3 Tuscan S. However, slight improvements have been made over the years and the solution installed in 15 TVR is the best available for any road- based Tuscan. Str8Six’s revised suspension geometry has also been utilised during the rebuild.'
You can just about make out the rear Eibach part number as D0896, which is the S rear spring part number. So assuming the set-up is as follows:
Front
D0117 Dark Green Eibach springs (same as non S springs) (set to lowest perch from bottom)
C0968 Bilstein Shocks
Rear
D0896 Dark Blue Eibach springs (set to 3rd perch from bottom)
D0894 Bilstein Shocks
I'm pretty sure this is the set-up I will be choosing. I believe Str8six are currently developing a new spring/damper set-up not Bilstein based also...
Does Ben do group buys...?
Edited by Modrich on Tuesday 28th March 23:15
In my experience,spring rates are the fundamental issue with the standard T350.
The standard front springs are 200lbs per inch.
The Standard rear springs are 175lbs per inch.
The Nitron comfort kit is,I think 400 lbs front and 350 lbs rear.
The Sagaris is 450 lbs front and 400lbs rear.
The original,Harvey Bailey (red) dampers were appalling, they have a combination of " sticktion", and then very poor damping,producing both a jiggly and wallowing ride!
If you want to get Sagaris style handling,you will need Sagaris spring rates.They came with specially designed Bilsteins,from new.
I've got Nitrons on my T350, and for me 400lbs front with 350lbs rears were too soft,even though the dampers were a monumental improvement over the Harvey Bailey's.
I then,changed to 500 lbs front and 450 rear.
For me ( I like firm suspension), this combination is very good,but I can see why the Sagaris rates(450 F, and 400 rear), are the best compromise.
I don't believe the Bilsteins have moveable bases, so you can't play with the ride height?
The Nitrons do allow you to adjust the ride height, and on our poor roads,I've found a slightly higher stance to be beneficial, both for ground clearance
and bump steer reduction, if not quite so aesthetically pleasing!
The standard front springs are 200lbs per inch.
The Standard rear springs are 175lbs per inch.
The Nitron comfort kit is,I think 400 lbs front and 350 lbs rear.
The Sagaris is 450 lbs front and 400lbs rear.
The original,Harvey Bailey (red) dampers were appalling, they have a combination of " sticktion", and then very poor damping,producing both a jiggly and wallowing ride!
If you want to get Sagaris style handling,you will need Sagaris spring rates.They came with specially designed Bilsteins,from new.
I've got Nitrons on my T350, and for me 400lbs front with 350lbs rears were too soft,even though the dampers were a monumental improvement over the Harvey Bailey's.
I then,changed to 500 lbs front and 450 rear.
For me ( I like firm suspension), this combination is very good,but I can see why the Sagaris rates(450 F, and 400 rear), are the best compromise.
I don't believe the Bilsteins have moveable bases, so you can't play with the ride height?
The Nitrons do allow you to adjust the ride height, and on our poor roads,I've found a slightly higher stance to be beneficial, both for ground clearance
and bump steer reduction, if not quite so aesthetically pleasing!
Edited by astonman on Wednesday 29th March 00:09
I think the shock leverage is different on the Sagaris though so spring rates will apply differently to the other cars.
The earlier standard set up was very much under sprung and over damped, so you had the worst of all worlds with it shaking your fillings out over small bumps and bottoming out over larger ones.
The earlier standard set up was very much under sprung and over damped, so you had the worst of all worlds with it shaking your fillings out over small bumps and bottoming out over larger ones.
The angles are different,but logically ( as the T350 set up is more angled) the Sagaris rates will in practice be slightly softer on the T350?
I have however,tried both the comfort spring rates and the slightly stiffer than Sag rates, and the slightly stiffer was better,for me,but I can see why 50 lbs less per inch,could be the sweet spot.
450 front and 400 rear.I should add that I used the " original", setting for the Nitrons and merely changed springs, leaving the dampers as set by the factory, which is a supple setting, yet very well damped.
I have however,tried both the comfort spring rates and the slightly stiffer than Sag rates, and the slightly stiffer was better,for me,but I can see why 50 lbs less per inch,could be the sweet spot.
450 front and 400 rear.I should add that I used the " original", setting for the Nitrons and merely changed springs, leaving the dampers as set by the factory, which is a supple setting, yet very well damped.
Edited by astonman on Wednesday 29th March 00:22
From what I can glean from various PH postings (mainly from glow-worm), all the later T cars used the green D0117 front spring at 200lb/in.
The early Tuscan 2 and T350 used white D0368 rear springs at 157lb/in, later Tuscan 2 used light blue D0897 at 228lb/in and the Tuscan S used dark blue D0896 at 285lb/in.
Interesting that the Sag has stiffer springs at the front, while all others are stiffer at the rear.
Ben Lang suggested I use 200lb/in front and the Tuscan S 285lb/in rear with the Bilsteins.
I currently have Racing Reds with white (not Eibach) springs. Anyone know what rate they could be?
I believe the Bilsteins have a number of slots in the body so the height is adjustable in steps. I read there might be an adapter you can use to give continuous adjustment.
The early Tuscan 2 and T350 used white D0368 rear springs at 157lb/in, later Tuscan 2 used light blue D0897 at 228lb/in and the Tuscan S used dark blue D0896 at 285lb/in.
Interesting that the Sag has stiffer springs at the front, while all others are stiffer at the rear.
Ben Lang suggested I use 200lb/in front and the Tuscan S 285lb/in rear with the Bilsteins.
I currently have Racing Reds with white (not Eibach) springs. Anyone know what rate they could be?
I believe the Bilsteins have a number of slots in the body so the height is adjustable in steps. I read there might be an adapter you can use to give continuous adjustment.
Edited by non_linear on Wednesday 29th March 09:37
McFlash-ah-ah said:
For what it’s worth, my T350 has adjustable Nitron’s, and the car has been set up by Powers at last service.
The car came with them when I purchased it.
On a smooth well maintained road the car does handle beautifully and the damping is fine.
However I live in the west of Scotland and the roads are a joke.
Going out for a wee spin requires a lot of forward concentration to avoid the ruts and potholes, and god forbid you do catch something at speed, then it’s goodbye to one of your spiders.
When I do finally get round to a chassis refurb, I will be replacing the Nitrons with Bilsteins as I don’t need the firmer damping or adjustability.
I suppose it depends on where and how you use your car.
I was having a chat to someone the other day about suspension. I said that if you give someone an adjustable damper they will never be happy, they will never be able to find just the right compromise. Give them a non adjustable damper and they are happy to put up with whatever ride / handling they get, because they can't adjust it and assume whoever specced the damper in the first place got it right, so it must be as good as it can be right??The car came with them when I purchased it.
On a smooth well maintained road the car does handle beautifully and the damping is fine.
However I live in the west of Scotland and the roads are a joke.
Going out for a wee spin requires a lot of forward concentration to avoid the ruts and potholes, and god forbid you do catch something at speed, then it’s goodbye to one of your spiders.
When I do finally get round to a chassis refurb, I will be replacing the Nitrons with Bilsteins as I don’t need the firmer damping or adjustability.
I suppose it depends on where and how you use your car.
Give me an adjustable damper over a non adjustable any day. For a non adjustable damper (and spring) to be capable of supporting / controlling 2 occupants, a boot of luggage and a full fuel tank it *must* be too stiff the 99 percent of the time you're not on driving hols with your mate...
just my opinion.
Edited by spitfire4v8 on Wednesday 29th March 11:11
You could say adjustable enables you to get the perfect set up for all conditions but that rather depends on whether or not the damping is correct in the first place.
I’m not sure how much testing has really gone on taking into account different load settings on the car via adjustable after market shocks and nearly all use rose joints which increase the risk of wear and clunking and vibration through the chassis.
I prefer rubberised joints and they last a lot longer than rose joints which also have a tendency to seize if used in all weathers.
Variable rate springs and getting that right then matching dampers to those springs rates is probably the best overall solution.
Are the Billies variable rate sprung?
I’m not sure how much testing has really gone on taking into account different load settings on the car via adjustable after market shocks and nearly all use rose joints which increase the risk of wear and clunking and vibration through the chassis.
I prefer rubberised joints and they last a lot longer than rose joints which also have a tendency to seize if used in all weathers.
Variable rate springs and getting that right then matching dampers to those springs rates is probably the best overall solution.
Are the Billies variable rate sprung?
I went through this decision process when I decided to upgrade my T350. It seems to me that set-up is such a personal choice that there is no single definitive answer.
I went to Matt Smith, discussed what I wanted and listened to his advice.
In the end I went for Gaz Mono shocks and new springs. Based on his advice, the adjustability means that if I become unhappy with the set-up and geo I can go back to him and soften or harden the ride.
As it is; I think he set the car up perfectly for spirited road use. Sometimes I am tempted to increase ride height and soften the ride because of the awful condition of our roads but then I find a smooth road with sweeping bends and decide everything is just perfect 😁
I went to Matt Smith, discussed what I wanted and listened to his advice.
In the end I went for Gaz Mono shocks and new springs. Based on his advice, the adjustability means that if I become unhappy with the set-up and geo I can go back to him and soften or harden the ride.
As it is; I think he set the car up perfectly for spirited road use. Sometimes I am tempted to increase ride height and soften the ride because of the awful condition of our roads but then I find a smooth road with sweeping bends and decide everything is just perfect 😁
spitfire4v8 said:
McFlash-ah-ah said:
For what it’s worth, my T350 has adjustable Nitron’s, and the car has been set up by Powers at last service.
The car came with them when I purchased it.
On a smooth well maintained road the car does handle beautifully and the damping is fine.
However I live in the west of Scotland and the roads are a joke.
Going out for a wee spin requires a lot of forward concentration to avoid the ruts and potholes, and god forbid you do catch something at speed, then it’s goodbye to one of your spiders.
When I do finally get round to a chassis refurb, I will be replacing the Nitrons with Bilsteins as I don’t need the firmer damping or adjustability.
I suppose it depends on where and how you use your car.
I was having a chat to someone the other day about suspension. I said that if you give someone an adjustable damper they will never be happy, they will never be able to find just the right compromise. Give them a non adjustable damper and they are happy to put up with whatever ride / handling they get, because they can't adjust it and assume whoever specced the damper in the first place got it right, so it must be as good as it can be right??The car came with them when I purchased it.
On a smooth well maintained road the car does handle beautifully and the damping is fine.
However I live in the west of Scotland and the roads are a joke.
Going out for a wee spin requires a lot of forward concentration to avoid the ruts and potholes, and god forbid you do catch something at speed, then it’s goodbye to one of your spiders.
When I do finally get round to a chassis refurb, I will be replacing the Nitrons with Bilsteins as I don’t need the firmer damping or adjustability.
I suppose it depends on where and how you use your car.
Give me an adjustable damper over a non adjustable any day. For a non adjustable damper (and spring) to be capable of supporting / controlling 2 occupants, a boot of luggage and a full fuel tank it *must* be too stiff the 99 percent of the time you're not on driving hols with your mate...
just my opinion.
Edited by spitfire4v8 on Wednesday 29th March 11:11
It’s the fact that the nitron dampers are firmer than standard spec.
Don’t get me wrong, the car handles superbly and Dom has set it up correctly.
On the ‘smoother’ roads down south or for track use, I’m more than certain I would be happy with what I’ve got on the car.
However I’d welcome you to come up and drive some of the roads around near to me and I’m sure you’d end up seeing it from my perspective.
Whilst I appreciate that a T350 isn’t a SUV, I personally prefer a little comfort along with the ability for the car to be able to ‘handle’.
I’m not for compromising my vehicle either or assuming that a non adjustable damper will be just fine.
I don’t ‘hoon’ around enough to need such uprated suspension, nor do I track the car on the 99% of the time I’m with my mate in the car.
As I previously said, it depends on where and how you use your car, and you’re right…..
Your opinion is just that.
Let’s be honest here. How many owners use the car in a spirited way on our roads for any length of time.
I’ve gone from pushing my luck to just enjoying the ride.
I’ll go to a track if I want to drive stupidly fast.
I no longer want to go to a track.
This then changes my perspective on what shocks I need on a daily basis which is soft enough to enjoy the car on our roads but just firm enough to not be bottoming out which after GAZ gold pro, (brutal) to PROTECH twin adjust on softer springs ( big mistake ) way to soft and required damping to be set at 9 out of eleven clicks which gave no compliance at slow speed and still bottomed out at speed to a set of old Billies from an early Griff. Literally 25 + years old now and I love them.
Damping is consistent and easy to read. Springs are probably worn but never bottom out and maintain the correct ride height yet over bumps are quiet and the car doesn’t shake and rattle.
As I’m never going to be pushing my car much past 70-80 mph on an open road so they do the job great. Harder suspension just gives good support at speed. That’s it.
A small amount of body roll helps the tyres grip better at more sensible corner speeds and maintains a true tyre contact patch on the road over bumps imho.
Body roll helps push weight onto the tyres to a point. This at normal road speeds or in rain it gives better traction.
So my basic conclusion is unless it’s being driven at high corner speeds regularly you can soften the suspension subtly from these sports settings which can make driving it on a regular basis more fun. It’s no longer a shed!
The best shocks I’ve experienced on a Tvr was GAZ mono?
That car was on 18 in wheels with softer track/ summer tyres so there’s more to this than meets the eye.
I’ve gone from pushing my luck to just enjoying the ride.
I’ll go to a track if I want to drive stupidly fast.
I no longer want to go to a track.
This then changes my perspective on what shocks I need on a daily basis which is soft enough to enjoy the car on our roads but just firm enough to not be bottoming out which after GAZ gold pro, (brutal) to PROTECH twin adjust on softer springs ( big mistake ) way to soft and required damping to be set at 9 out of eleven clicks which gave no compliance at slow speed and still bottomed out at speed to a set of old Billies from an early Griff. Literally 25 + years old now and I love them.
Damping is consistent and easy to read. Springs are probably worn but never bottom out and maintain the correct ride height yet over bumps are quiet and the car doesn’t shake and rattle.
As I’m never going to be pushing my car much past 70-80 mph on an open road so they do the job great. Harder suspension just gives good support at speed. That’s it.
A small amount of body roll helps the tyres grip better at more sensible corner speeds and maintains a true tyre contact patch on the road over bumps imho.
Body roll helps push weight onto the tyres to a point. This at normal road speeds or in rain it gives better traction.
So my basic conclusion is unless it’s being driven at high corner speeds regularly you can soften the suspension subtly from these sports settings which can make driving it on a regular basis more fun. It’s no longer a shed!
The best shocks I’ve experienced on a Tvr was GAZ mono?
That car was on 18 in wheels with softer track/ summer tyres so there’s more to this than meets the eye.
Regarding the effect on the Sagaris spring /dampers when deployed on a T350 etc chassis. The Sag chassis had the damper top mounts moved outward (and upward) compared to the earlier T-Car chassis this will make the damper more upright in relation to the lower suspension arm acting upon it thus allow the spring to appear stiffer (at the wheel/ suspension arm) and also likely reduce any fall off in effective spring rate due to the angle between suspension arm and spring/damper reducing over the arc of the suspension movement. So on a earlier T-Car chassis Sag sussies will feel softer than they would on a Sag, by how much that is something that maybe difficult to measure feel with only your butt as the measuring tool. Eibach did publish a lovely formula (not theirs) for calculating all that wonderful stuff like wheel frequency/effective spring rates etc but I cant locate it at this moment, it used to be listed on the Eibach ERS spring catalogue from memory but my current (old PDF copies) don't have it.
McFlash-ah-ah said:
It’s not the adjustability factor of the damper that irks me.
It’s the fact that the nitron dampers are firmer than standard spec.
Don’t get me wrong, the car handles superbly and Dom has set it up correctly.
On the ‘smoother’ roads down south or for track use, I’m more than certain I would be happy with what I’ve got on the car.
However I’d welcome you to come up and drive some of the roads around near to me and I’m sure you’d end up seeing it from my perspective.
Whilst I appreciate that a T350 isn’t a SUV, I personally prefer a little comfort along with the ability for the car to be able to ‘handle’.
I’m not for compromising my vehicle either or assuming that a non adjustable damper will be just fine.
I don’t ‘hoon’ around enough to need such uprated suspension, nor do I track the car on the 99% of the time I’m with my mate in the car.
As I previously said, it depends on where and how you use your car, and you’re right…..
Your opinion is just that.
You probably need more tyre sidewall. I hate the fact that later tvrs came on 18 inch wheels / rubber band tyres, PW himself said it was vanity that pushed the move to 18inch wheels - the customers liked the look. They ride like a pile of poo, like most modern cars do to be honest. It’s the fact that the nitron dampers are firmer than standard spec.
Don’t get me wrong, the car handles superbly and Dom has set it up correctly.
On the ‘smoother’ roads down south or for track use, I’m more than certain I would be happy with what I’ve got on the car.
However I’d welcome you to come up and drive some of the roads around near to me and I’m sure you’d end up seeing it from my perspective.
Whilst I appreciate that a T350 isn’t a SUV, I personally prefer a little comfort along with the ability for the car to be able to ‘handle’.
I’m not for compromising my vehicle either or assuming that a non adjustable damper will be just fine.
I don’t ‘hoon’ around enough to need such uprated suspension, nor do I track the car on the 99% of the time I’m with my mate in the car.
As I previously said, it depends on where and how you use your car, and you’re right…..
Your opinion is just that.
It's a shame classicchim didn't get on with his protechs, I supplied them and it's my fault he had issues - with hindsight i went too soft on the springs and tried to recover the load ability with longer progressive bump stops. Had we re-visited the set up later on and gone stiffer on the springs I think his opinion would be more favourable.
I took nitrons off my tuscan and fitted double adjust protechs because the ride is so much better, I love a really supple compliant car, the older I get the softer I like it.
Many years ago I was the first person to have the old NTX nitron for a tvr, and worked in a somewhat limited way with Guy from nitron when he first introduced the NTR monotube. The Powers comfort valving might (or might not) be based on one of several valving styles I had back when I was selling Nitrons like hot cakes. Meteor Motorsport seem to be doing a similar thing these days.
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