T350 versus Sagaris - real world

[UKAuto]

I have been on the hunt for another TVR for some time and have three options I am very seriously considering; one is a T350, another is a Sagaris, and the third... well, it is neither so not as relevant within this group.

I was hoping there is someone here who owns both and can give me their views on each. The price differential is substantial as you all know, and although I am not considering it as an "investment", I do expect the price differential will remain over the years so it isn't money 'lost'.

I assume both should be much the same in reliability, so I am assuming the biggest difference is going to be emotional; based on how the car makes you feel standing there looking at it, as well as how it makes you feel when you take it out on a deserted windy road.

Appreciate any real world impressions you may have - cheers.

[s3dave]

I will leave it to experts to detail all the differences, but as I understand it apart from the obvious styling and engine differences the main difference is in suspension geometry. I understand the T350 can suffer from bump steer. I believe many have been modified to reduce this issue.

I was also keen on a T350, as they appear excellent value, but for some reason they are not so popular. I would go as far as saying they appear to be one of the most undervalued cars in the TVR range so maybe an excellent investment.

[UKAuto]

I agree with the point on valuation; the price difference from T350 to Sagaris is substantial, but (other than the visual “wow!” level) the difference in the two isn’t logically tied to price. It may not be as undervalued as the wedges continue to be, but very much as with the wedges I don’t see the market shifting to tighten that gap any time soon.

…Oh, and logic hardly enters in to it, does it…

I heard mention of the bump steer issue, I will do some reading in that. Suspect it isn’t too complex to improve, possibly as simple as slightly moving the rack.

[PPPMAT]

There is a bump steer mod available for the T350 - I don’t know what it actually does though.

I think the t350 is undervalued considering what you are getting. Prices have been slowly creeping up for nice examples of all TVRs and the Sag will still be top of the tree - can’t see that changing.

The sag is objectively the ‘better’ car but the differences are not vast. As you correctly point out it’s value is a factor of the market, it’s rarity and being the last of. Mk3 Tuscans seem to be creeping closer to it though in value terms.

[astonman]

I've owned a T350T from new.
I tried a Sagaris after I'd ordered the T350.
It felt instantly more stable and " planted", though not as fast or exciting( probably because it was more planted).
I also prefered the higher reving, smoother 3.6 to the subtleties of slightly more torque of the 4 litre.
I wanted some open air motoring , the Sagaris can't offer that.
The Sagaris was also physically too wide to fit easily in my garage!
When one of my shocks failed at 4K, I fitted road spec nitrons and 400F/350R lbs/ft spec nitron springs.The original spring rates were very soft ,200F/175R and the original Harvey Bailey shocks awful( both jiggly and soggy at the same time).
When I drove the car with the new Nitrons it was transformed,almost no bump steer( due to less suspension travel?), firmer,less roll and more comfortable,less jiggly!
Subsequently ,I discovered Sag spec springs are 450F /400R, this together with good dampers,Nitrons (or Bilstein? ),makes the T350 almost identical to the Sagaris at road speeds.
Just remember,to truly compare Sag prices to T350C ,you need a well looked after 2004 or ideally 2005/6 example.If you want a T350 T from 2005/6 then you are looking at 9 or ten cars only.The smolensky period cars have a reputation of being better put together and the 3.6 engines a reputation of more reliability( ?).

[UKAuto]

PPPMAT said:

...Mk3 Tuscans seem to be creeping closer to it though in value terms.

Thanks. I left off the third car I have under consideration as this is specifically a T350 and Sagaris forum, but it is in fact a MK3 Tuscan. None of the three will disappoint I am certain, just have to get my mind made up! Cheers.

[UKAuto]

astonman said:

I've owned a T350T from new.
I tried a Sagaris after I'd ordered the T350...

Interesting and useful observations, thanks for taking the time to share them.

[non_linear]

I would also extoll the virtues of the Targa version of the T350. Perhaps not quite as clean lines as the C with the roof panels on, but a very different experience when driving with them off.

[UKAuto]

non_linear said:

...Perhaps not quite as clean lines as the C with the roof panels on..

I actually prefer the look of the 'T' version; you are right to say the lines may not be as clean, but neither is the Sagaris when compared to a T350c! If a truly superb T350T was on market it would certainly be high on my list to consider.

[catfishdb]

Robert,

Over on the Hemmings site....there is a 2002 Cascade Gold Tuscan imported from Japan. Currently in British Columbia.

You may have already known it was there but I thought it was worth mentioning.

Arthur

[robsco]

T350T all the way for me, wind in the hair experience and as good to drive as a Sagaris at half the money. I’ll never have another Sag, I’m now on my third T350T.

[Englishman]

UKAuto said:

I am assuming the biggest difference is going to be emotional; based on how the car makes you feel standing there looking at it, as well as how it makes you feel when you take it out on a deserted windy road.

Absolutely. You won't be disappointed with any of the TVR models you are considering, but your decision will depend on your priorities and preferences. For me the order is Sagaris (owned two), Tuscan (owned two), T350 (driven but never owned).

The Sagaris is very special, which is why it commands a higher price, but it is not for everyone. The suspension is harder, the car is lower and the exterior is beautiful but some think extreme. Without modification, it is the most planted road car I've ever driven on track too.

The Tuscan is the best all rounder, softer suspension but roof off it can't be beaten. Roof on it is totally practical in all conditions while still looking great from any angle.

The T350 is, IMHO, somewhere between. Misses out on the sharpness of the Sagaris when driving and the ultimate roof-off experience of the Tuscan. The styling at the front is ok, if a bit understated, but I just don't like the rear.

As I said at the start though, only you can decide what is best for you.

[astonman]

The addition of Sagaris spec springs and dampers ,will make a T350 just as sharp as a Sagaris.
You won't get a near perfect low mileage 2005/6 T350T for 50% of a Sagaris, as I said ,9 or 10 cars only.

[UKAuto]

catfishdb said:

Robert,

Over on the Hemmings site....there is a 2002 Cascade Gold Tuscan imported from Japan. Currently in British Columbia.

You may have already known it was there but I thought it was worth mentioning.

Arthur

Thanks, yes, seen that car on line (but hadn't seen that advert). Not the one for me, but certainly a head turner. Cheers.

[UKAuto]

robsco said:

T350T all the way for me, wind in the hair experience and as good to drive as a Sagaris at half the money. I’ll never have another Sag, I’m now on my third T350T.

If we didn't already own any convertibles I would certainly insist on my upcoming toy being a convertible Tuscan or a T350T. Getting close on the final decision - although there is no reason for me to rush the decision, none of the options are trivial investments, and I want to get it right the first time.

[robsco]

UKAuto said:

robsco said:

T350T all the way for me, wind in the hair experience and as good to drive as a Sagaris at half the money. I’ll never have another Sag, I’m now on my third T350T.

If we didn't already own any convertibles I would certainly insist on my upcoming toy being a convertible Tuscan or a T350T. Getting close on the final decision - although there is no reason for me to rush the decision, none of the options are trivial investments, and I want to get it right the first time.

Understood. As we all know, all TVRs are such an emotive purchase, advice left on here will almost always fall on deaf ears, as we all just rush out and buy the one we fall in love with. Perhaps if I was a little wealthier I’d have a different outlook, but when I had my Sagaris, I just couldn’t compute the £75k purchase price. Was that because I didn’t see £75k of value in the car, or because it was just a little too much money for a man of my means to have wrapped up in a toy? Perhaps it was a bit of both.

Either way, I’ve always found T350s that little more pleasant as an ownership experience, 95 percent of the experience for 50 percent of the money - and, as I previously stated, for me once the shock value of the Sagaris styling had worn off, I actually find the T350 design significantly prettier and more resolved.

Ultimately it’s a beautiful dilemma to have, and I wish you the very best of luck with it.

[leef44]

UKAuto said:

robsco said:

T350T all the way for me, wind in the hair experience and as good to drive as a Sagaris at half the money. I’ll never have another Sag, I’m now on my third T350T.

If we didn't already own any convertibles I would certainly insist on my upcoming toy being a convertible Tuscan or a T350T. Getting close on the final decision - although there is no reason for me to rush the decision, none of the options are trivial investments, and I want to get it right the first time.

I may have got a bit muddled with my memory but one set of the vents (maybe windscreen) only blows out hot air from the engine to reduce the heat soak so even with the air con on you are blowing hot air out of one set of vents and freezing cold air out of another.

I used to always drive with the targa panels off so that the hot air could blow out the top and get the massive grin from maximum exhilaration with engine sound on the T350T.

For this reason I would say don't underestimate the benefit of having the T350T over the T350C.

As for the Sagaris, I thought one of the reasons why it held its value so well and appreciated was because of its higher quality/reliability due to Smolenski quality control. If you get a 2005+ T350T, it will be the same.

[astonman]

So,if you compare a good Sagaris with 15k or less miles,against a similar 2005/6 T350T, then you will more likely need to pay 60/70% of the Sagaris.
There are many more much cheaper , earlier T350Cs and some T350Ts out there.

[Sevenman]

leef44 said:

I may have got a bit muddled with my memory but one set of the vents (maybe windscreen) only blows out hot air from the engine to reduce the heat soak so even with the air con on you are blowing hot air out of one set of vents and freezing cold air out of another.

I used to always drive with the targa panels off so that the hot air could blow out the top and get the massive grin from maximum exhilaration with engine sound on the T350T.

That's what my Tamora did when I got it and had a warm drive home, however it shouldn't.

Changing the heater control settings in the menu (using the steering wheel buttons) fixed it.

The windscreen vents are the hot air vents, but they are fully off when the heater controls are turned to cold.

[leef44]

Sevenman said:

leef44 said:

I may have got a bit muddled with my memory but one set of the vents (maybe windscreen) only blows out hot air from the engine to reduce the heat soak so even with the air con on you are blowing hot air out of one set of vents and freezing cold air out of another.

I used to always drive with the targa panels off so that the hot air could blow out the top and get the massive grin from maximum exhilaration with engine sound on the T350T.

That's what my Tamora did when I got it and had a warm drive home, however it shouldn't.

Changing the heater control settings in the menu (using the steering wheel buttons) fixed it.

The windscreen vents are the hot air vents, but they are fully off when the heater controls are turned to cold.

Thanks for the info. I can't remember whether I tried to find such setting adjustments via the menu but I ended up always driving the car with the targa tops off and the better for it