tuning a gts r
Discussion
hi helpful people!i think im going to get a holden hsv gts r when ive sold my evo!(if)!
but please can somebody run me through the different stages of tuning!
ie what power you will get from doing different mods!
start with a 410 bhp car!
then add stainless exhaust?whats the best to go for and price?
do holdens go better decatted?
supercharger?what power?how much?where to get?
twin turbo kit?power? price?
what happens about fueling?is the standard ecu remappable?or do you have to fit after market?
thanks guys
shaun
but please can somebody run me through the different stages of tuning!
ie what power you will get from doing different mods!
start with a 410 bhp car!
then add stainless exhaust?whats the best to go for and price?
do holdens go better decatted?
supercharger?what power?how much?where to get?
twin turbo kit?power? price?
what happens about fueling?is the standard ecu remappable?or do you have to fit after market?
thanks guys
shaun
If only I knew the answers to your questions.
Currently with 500 brake & 550 ft lb torque at the wheels (DIN),plus these figs by 40 for engine output.
Vortec blower, CAPA cam, no cats or mufflers, totally over-fuelled, not been able to tune yet with maffless set up.
One day I expect to have +600 brake, for a LS1 engine thats about as far as you can go without going silly, £10k's worth of bottom block or nitrous.
Most qualified person to answer this post would be panoma, he is on his 3rd blower and countless tuning set-ups.
LS2 engine might be capable of delivering more but no one has experience to date over here.
Forget the engine at first, its the brakes that need upgrading, around £4k, expect to spend around £10-15k on engine, suspension upgrades though to get that sort of power.
Being an idiot I paid £7.5k for the AP stoppers and £15k on the engine/suspension mods.
>> Edited by V8HSV on Sunday 27th March 11:45
Currently with 500 brake & 550 ft lb torque at the wheels (DIN),plus these figs by 40 for engine output.
Vortec blower, CAPA cam, no cats or mufflers, totally over-fuelled, not been able to tune yet with maffless set up.
One day I expect to have +600 brake, for a LS1 engine thats about as far as you can go without going silly, £10k's worth of bottom block or nitrous.
Most qualified person to answer this post would be panoma, he is on his 3rd blower and countless tuning set-ups.
LS2 engine might be capable of delivering more but no one has experience to date over here.
Forget the engine at first, its the brakes that need upgrading, around £4k, expect to spend around £10-15k on engine, suspension upgrades though to get that sort of power.
Being an idiot I paid £7.5k for the AP stoppers and £15k on the engine/suspension mods.
>> Edited by V8HSV on Sunday 27th March 11:45
Oh dear I am going to upset some folks now, they are adequate but will not survive aggressive use and are rubbish on track days, no car comes with the AP ones I have (6-pot) but AP make the HSV 4-pots. My main critisism is the discs being drilled, this just creates heat points and they fracture out around the holes. panoma, GSE, caspy & myself have the 6-pots and I have heard no complaints to date.
>> Edited by V8HSV on Sunday 27th March 11:59
>> Edited by V8HSV on Sunday 27th March 11:59
Difficult to know where to start because it'll depend on what's already been done to the car you're purchasing. I've got a standard Commodore which I'll take to Stage 2 (CAI, Powerflow Exhaust, & ReMap). I'll get it done in 1 go through http://wortec.co.uk. Last time I spoke to uk_hsv he could do it for around £3000.
I'm sure others are more qualified than I to fully answer your Q's, but I'll have a stab. I don't know about exact costs or BHP power increases for each. Any figures quoted will be approximate anyway. The best thing I would suggest is to come along to one of our meets and see the mods & speak to the owners.
Stainless Exhaust
=================
You have 2 choices here; Catback or Full Powerflow exhaust (inc. Headers)
It depends on your budget & how much of that lovely V8 sound you want to hear. The Powerflow is the better system, but obviously more expensive. Dan_the_man has a wonderful sound just from a cat back system. Raggyman has just had a straight pipe fitted instead of his muffler. Again, sweet sounds.
V8HSV has a straight through system (still has the balancer pipes) with a small rear box and it sounds pure NASCAR. I believe he got it from www.topgear.co.uk at their Basingstoke centre from the "Powersport" range that comes with a lifetime guarentee. I believe he went for the 3.5" system. I think that's right isn't it Will?
Supercharger
============
V8HSV is better answering this one as he's got one fitted. All I can say is WOW!!
Twin Turbo
==========
www.wrc-tech.co.uk/ are just starting to import the twin-turbo system. When we were up there on Tuesday, they'd just fitted it to a Ute and they were going to fit one to a Monaro in the next month. Speak to them about cost & power gains.
Fuel Consumption & Remapping
============================
There are several guys on the forum who can do the remapping using the stock ECU and have had some excellent success. Expect to get 30-40bhp extra (More on Utes). It's not the extra power that people benefit from, it's the ability to have a more responsive throttle & more perky at lower revs. Wortech can do a remap for £399.
As for MPG, you don't buy a car like this & worry about insignificant things like this
But I believe that those who have had the mods done & the remap show no significant loss in MPG. Expect to get 20-25mpg if you drive her carefully. Expect to get in to single figures on track days.
Cold Air Intake
===============
You have 2 systems available to you. The first (and most pradominant in the UK cars) is the Cone filter that sits just behind the headlight. Some modification to the airbox is required.
The second system is the Wide Mouth ram air intake. It sits just above the radiator and forces cold air in to the air box.
Other mods
==========
I'd also think about brakes!! If you're increasing acceleration & bhp you need to stop at some point! Some guys have had 6pot systems added. I think it was around £3000, but don't quote me on this. The standard brakes on the HSV are OK, but benefit from the upgrade (if you've got the cash). GSE got his AP setup (6 pot front 4 pot rear plus a set of HUGE discs) from JHP Vehicle enhancements in Australia. They are the top spec brakes even on HSVs (Will has them on his) and they really are the business. As said cost was £3.5k (plus 'taxes' ...) but he saved a lot by fitting them himself.
I'd also recommend that you add a RipShift gear stick to her. See the current thread. It's around £300. I can't describe the benefits of this, you simply have to feel other cars to believe it!
If your car doesn't have the front strut brace bar, I'd suggest you invest in one. They're about £90 from www.demon-tweeks.co.uk/ and make all the difference when going round corners.
Once you've done all of the above, bankrupted yourself, it's time to bling bling her
I'm sure others are more qualified than I to fully answer your Q's, but I'll have a stab. I don't know about exact costs or BHP power increases for each. Any figures quoted will be approximate anyway. The best thing I would suggest is to come along to one of our meets and see the mods & speak to the owners.
Stainless Exhaust
=================
You have 2 choices here; Catback or Full Powerflow exhaust (inc. Headers)
It depends on your budget & how much of that lovely V8 sound you want to hear. The Powerflow is the better system, but obviously more expensive. Dan_the_man has a wonderful sound just from a cat back system. Raggyman has just had a straight pipe fitted instead of his muffler. Again, sweet sounds.
V8HSV has a straight through system (still has the balancer pipes) with a small rear box and it sounds pure NASCAR. I believe he got it from www.topgear.co.uk at their Basingstoke centre from the "Powersport" range that comes with a lifetime guarentee. I believe he went for the 3.5" system. I think that's right isn't it Will?
Supercharger
============
V8HSV is better answering this one as he's got one fitted. All I can say is WOW!!
Twin Turbo
==========
www.wrc-tech.co.uk/ are just starting to import the twin-turbo system. When we were up there on Tuesday, they'd just fitted it to a Ute and they were going to fit one to a Monaro in the next month. Speak to them about cost & power gains.
Fuel Consumption & Remapping
============================
There are several guys on the forum who can do the remapping using the stock ECU and have had some excellent success. Expect to get 30-40bhp extra (More on Utes). It's not the extra power that people benefit from, it's the ability to have a more responsive throttle & more perky at lower revs. Wortech can do a remap for £399.
As for MPG, you don't buy a car like this & worry about insignificant things like this
But I believe that those who have had the mods done & the remap show no significant loss in MPG. Expect to get 20-25mpg if you drive her carefully. Expect to get in to single figures on track days. Cold Air Intake
===============
You have 2 systems available to you. The first (and most pradominant in the UK cars) is the Cone filter that sits just behind the headlight. Some modification to the airbox is required.
The second system is the Wide Mouth ram air intake. It sits just above the radiator and forces cold air in to the air box.
Other mods
==========
I'd also think about brakes!! If you're increasing acceleration & bhp you need to stop at some point! Some guys have had 6pot systems added. I think it was around £3000, but don't quote me on this. The standard brakes on the HSV are OK, but benefit from the upgrade (if you've got the cash). GSE got his AP setup (6 pot front 4 pot rear plus a set of HUGE discs) from JHP Vehicle enhancements in Australia. They are the top spec brakes even on HSVs (Will has them on his) and they really are the business. As said cost was £3.5k (plus 'taxes' ...) but he saved a lot by fitting them himself.
I'd also recommend that you add a RipShift gear stick to her. See the current thread. It's around £300. I can't describe the benefits of this, you simply have to feel other cars to believe it!
If your car doesn't have the front strut brace bar, I'd suggest you invest in one. They're about £90 from www.demon-tweeks.co.uk/ and make all the difference when going round corners.
Once you've done all of the above, bankrupted yourself, it's time to bling bling her
He's on his 3rd blower ????? WTF ???
There are plenty of guys in both the US and OZ, achieving 500-600 rwhp with good reliability as far as the engine is concerned. The biggest limitation is the high compression pistons in std form for such power ( via forced induction ). As for normally aspirated, with good exhausts, re-map, induction you could probably squeeze another 50-60bhp easily enough. The factory ecu is re-mappable by various means. EFI-Live, HP-Tuners, LS1Edit...
IMO generally speaking, forced induction usually offers the biggest gains per £££
There are various blower or turbo options, and as far as power is concerned, it just depends how much you want to spend. The sky is the limit really with these engines.
If you really want a budget option, and it does go against traditional turbo setups, you could consider a STS turbo system. It uses a turbo mounted behind the rear axle. It does sound ridiculous, but there are hundreds of them around now in the US, and they do make some power.
The US Pontiac GTO is virtually the same car.
www.ls1gto.com/forums/index.php?
Or another valuable source of info.
www.ls1tech.com/forums/index.php?
Or with the Oz market behing right hand drive, again, ther are various options.
www.ls1.com.au/forum/forumdisplay.php?f=9
Here is a Monaro by an Oz firm. I only recently found this link. They upgraded using the Whipple charger, although it can be pricey compared to Centrifugal offerings.
www.chipmaster.com.au/Project%20Monaro1.htm
I think even at around 5-600bhp, the std 01+ clutch should hold fine.
There are plenty of guys in both the US and OZ, achieving 500-600 rwhp with good reliability as far as the engine is concerned. The biggest limitation is the high compression pistons in std form for such power ( via forced induction ). As for normally aspirated, with good exhausts, re-map, induction you could probably squeeze another 50-60bhp easily enough. The factory ecu is re-mappable by various means. EFI-Live, HP-Tuners, LS1Edit...
IMO generally speaking, forced induction usually offers the biggest gains per £££
There are various blower or turbo options, and as far as power is concerned, it just depends how much you want to spend. The sky is the limit really with these engines.
If you really want a budget option, and it does go against traditional turbo setups, you could consider a STS turbo system. It uses a turbo mounted behind the rear axle. It does sound ridiculous, but there are hundreds of them around now in the US, and they do make some power.
The US Pontiac GTO is virtually the same car.
www.ls1gto.com/forums/index.php?
Or another valuable source of info.
www.ls1tech.com/forums/index.php?
Or with the Oz market behing right hand drive, again, ther are various options.
www.ls1.com.au/forum/forumdisplay.php?f=9
Here is a Monaro by an Oz firm. I only recently found this link. They upgraded using the Whipple charger, although it can be pricey compared to Centrifugal offerings.
www.chipmaster.com.au/Project%20Monaro1.htm
I think even at around 5-600bhp, the std 01+ clutch should hold fine.
Good reply Steve, I have 2.5" piping though, as I have only 11 mnths on current MOT with no chance of passing it next time round (new MOT station/regs)I'm going for side exhausts next with cat pipes. .
For the record AP brakes are made in UK, the rotors are madfe in Oz
If you want more info I suggest you own one first and then get a budget, I've spent over £45k on my mods to date.
Have you looked at the LSV web page, all the info is there to see.
>> Edited by V8HSV on Sunday 27th March 13:23
For the record AP brakes are made in UK, the rotors are madfe in Oz
If you want more info I suggest you own one first and then get a budget, I've spent over £45k on my mods to date.
Have you looked at the LSV web page, all the info is there to see.
>> Edited by V8HSV on Sunday 27th March 13:23
I think the first thing to find is a tuner. Make sure you have a good one of those before you start anywhere. It looks like wortec is starting to master that side of the situation.
Although the GTS-R doesn't need them....One of the top mods "down here" is to replace the diff gears.
The GTS-R already has the 3.9's in the back...the VXR and GTS have the 3.73's. The new VZ cars have different gearbox ratios again so not sure what the best diff ratio for them is.
I highly recommend those driving the 2004 Monaro's get a set of 3.9's in the back of the car. Get wortec or whoever to tweak the speedo for you.
My car did 10 litres a hundred prior and 11 litres a 100km after. It is like driving a car with 2 gearboxes! 1 through to 4 is the fun bit! 5 and 6 well they're the cruising/motorway/freeway gears.
Fuel consumption? Whats that? You buy a 5.7 litre car and exspect fuel economy!!!
I haven't owned a GTS-R but have seen the gains made on them with just a tune. A new cam maybe as the next stage. I would live with that first before going ballistic.
motomk
Although the GTS-R doesn't need them....One of the top mods "down here" is to replace the diff gears.
The GTS-R already has the 3.9's in the back...the VXR and GTS have the 3.73's. The new VZ cars have different gearbox ratios again so not sure what the best diff ratio for them is.
I highly recommend those driving the 2004 Monaro's get a set of 3.9's in the back of the car. Get wortec or whoever to tweak the speedo for you.
My car did 10 litres a hundred prior and 11 litres a 100km after. It is like driving a car with 2 gearboxes! 1 through to 4 is the fun bit! 5 and 6 well they're the cruising/motorway/freeway gears.
Fuel consumption? Whats that? You buy a 5.7 litre car and exspect fuel economy!!!
I haven't owned a GTS-R but have seen the gains made on them with just a tune. A new cam maybe as the next stage. I would live with that first before going ballistic.
motomk
There are guys in the US with over 800bhp daily drivers....but the roads are a bit different here, and that isnt really practical.
You can buy stroker kits for sensible money in the US. 6.7 or so is an easy one.
Or if you check LS1Tech, I think SDPC were doing an LS7 style offer. Its using the LS2 block, with various internal components, giving you a 7.0 built short motor.
Im pretty sure it was only around the $4000 mark.
It would be a good basis to start tuning, even for a forced induction engine. You would need much boost to make a bit of power, and it wouldnt be too stressed.
You can buy stroker kits for sensible money in the US. 6.7 or so is an easy one.
Or if you check LS1Tech, I think SDPC were doing an LS7 style offer. Its using the LS2 block, with various internal components, giving you a 7.0 built short motor.
Im pretty sure it was only around the $4000 mark.
It would be a good basis to start tuning, even for a forced induction engine. You would need much boost to make a bit of power, and it wouldnt be too stressed.
It sounds like your power limits are not from the blower choice itself ( although the Whipple is probably one of the best, albeit most expensive ), but from the fact you dont mention you have touched the engine itself much ???
Sticking to std engine, std CR, std heads will impose severe limits on power..
A set of decent heads, lower the CR ( either by heads, or by new pistons ), and with either a centrifugal blower or turbo, anything towards 6-700bhp is very achievable on an otherwise std motor( with supporting fuel system mods )
Rods will be touch and go at that level, but as long as revs are kept sensible, they seem to hold up.
ARP head studs, and rod bolts would be wise too.
There are LS1 guys running modified heads/cam etc etc almost making 500bhp normally aspirated.
Std LS1 cams are very mild, and swapping can give good gains, but you cant go too far with the without having to change valvesprings also. Std springs wont take much extra lift.
Std LS1/LS6 heads do flow a lot of air....ported ones just flow so much more.
And for the Ultimate, AFR's own castings are king.
Sticking to std engine, std CR, std heads will impose severe limits on power..
A set of decent heads, lower the CR ( either by heads, or by new pistons ), and with either a centrifugal blower or turbo, anything towards 6-700bhp is very achievable on an otherwise std motor( with supporting fuel system mods )
Rods will be touch and go at that level, but as long as revs are kept sensible, they seem to hold up.
ARP head studs, and rod bolts would be wise too.
There are LS1 guys running modified heads/cam etc etc almost making 500bhp normally aspirated.
Std LS1 cams are very mild, and swapping can give good gains, but you cant go too far with the without having to change valvesprings also. Std springs wont take much extra lift.
Std LS1/LS6 heads do flow a lot of air....ported ones just flow so much more.
And for the Ultimate, AFR's own castings are king.
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