Aftermarket engine management systems
Discussion
Please can I get some advice on this?
I am thinking about it for my cossie merc. Would take nice advantage of all those nice mechanical bits cosworth put in there, which are slightly wasted in standard roadgoing trim. I am looking for increased power and driveability, maintaining good fuel consumption, idle etc.
Current system is KE jetronic with crank position sensor, moving plate air flow meter, no throttle position sensor or MAP sensor, and no lambda sensor. Also ignition computer with single coil and distributor.
Standard is 202bhp at 6,200 rpm, not bad for a N/A 2.5 from the '80s. I've heard claims of +35bhp JUST from fitting aftermarket engine management...
The Emerald m3d system seems quite nice, though their rolling road is in Norfolk which is miles for me.
Would I need new injectors?
Russell
I am thinking about it for my cossie merc. Would take nice advantage of all those nice mechanical bits cosworth put in there, which are slightly wasted in standard roadgoing trim. I am looking for increased power and driveability, maintaining good fuel consumption, idle etc.
Current system is KE jetronic with crank position sensor, moving plate air flow meter, no throttle position sensor or MAP sensor, and no lambda sensor. Also ignition computer with single coil and distributor.
Standard is 202bhp at 6,200 rpm, not bad for a N/A 2.5 from the '80s. I've heard claims of +35bhp JUST from fitting aftermarket engine management...
The Emerald m3d system seems quite nice, though their rolling road is in Norfolk which is miles for me.
Would I need new injectors?
Russell
Starting bottom up...
Bigger injectors - only if your are currently maxed out. They probably aren't so you can just increase the event duration/timing if you need more fuel.
You don't HAVE to go to Dave Walkers rolling road to have a car set up on an Emerald M3D ECU - it comes with the software so any (co-operative) road should be able to set it up. The advantage of going to DW is that the Emerald units are his and so no-one knows them as well as he does.
You might want to hold off any decisions for a month though as Practical Performance Car (www.ppcmag.co.uk) are meant to be running a comparison piece. OK, with DW as a staff writer there is a chance if his receiving favour but not all of them use Emerald ECUs - the RR Merlin powered Rover SD1 is on the 'free' MegaSquirt for example.
Bigger injectors - only if your are currently maxed out. They probably aren't so you can just increase the event duration/timing if you need more fuel.
You don't HAVE to go to Dave Walkers rolling road to have a car set up on an Emerald M3D ECU - it comes with the software so any (co-operative) road should be able to set it up. The advantage of going to DW is that the Emerald units are his and so no-one knows them as well as he does.
You might want to hold off any decisions for a month though as Practical Performance Car (www.ppcmag.co.uk) are meant to be running a comparison piece. OK, with DW as a staff writer there is a chance if his receiving favour but not all of them use Emerald ECUs - the RR Merlin powered Rover SD1 is on the 'free' MegaSquirt for example.
I have done the same thing on my E30 M3 using a Motec M4 ECU and wiring adaptors supplied by Powerstation in Cheltnam. Much better drivability, torque, starting and even better economy.
There are lots of options if you go this route. You could go as far as distributorless multi coil ignition and sequential injection. Alternativly you could just use the basic functions of the ECU to run you ignition and fuel system, but do away with the airflow meter and use a throttle poition sensor for you load measurment.
My advice would be go all the way as the initial expense is not much greater and you will have the gold standard. Using the Motec M4, expect this to cost you £1500-2000.
I believe the Emerald kit is also good, but the success of this kind of project lies in the execution. Making the looms, installing the sensors and other hardware. It is not beyond the capabiliies of a decent technially minded person to do most of the installation himself.
If you go own this route, make sure you choose a system that has good support as a friendly voice on the end of the phone is good to have when you are setting up.
Keep us posted
Steve
There are lots of options if you go this route. You could go as far as distributorless multi coil ignition and sequential injection. Alternativly you could just use the basic functions of the ECU to run you ignition and fuel system, but do away with the airflow meter and use a throttle poition sensor for you load measurment.
My advice would be go all the way as the initial expense is not much greater and you will have the gold standard. Using the Motec M4, expect this to cost you £1500-2000.
I believe the Emerald kit is also good, but the success of this kind of project lies in the execution. Making the looms, installing the sensors and other hardware. It is not beyond the capabiliies of a decent technially minded person to do most of the installation himself.
If you go own this route, make sure you choose a system that has good support as a friendly voice on the end of the phone is good to have when you are setting up.
Keep us posted
Steve
Take a look at the Megasquirt ECU, you wont be disapointed, even if you simply read the manuals for a grounding in tuning and how fuel injection works, www.megamanual.com/v22manual/mtabcon.htm
Phil
Phil
j17 - thanks for the info on Emerald, didn't realise they were connected with PPC. Will have to buy that issue..
I actually live in Cheltenham, so this is handy. But I emailed powerstation and they never replied. I'm pretty happy to try wiring it myself - did you wire yours yourself? How much was fitting if not?
Glad that it has made a noticeable difference on the M3 as our engines are very similar (but you have throttle bodies). Are you using the standard injectors? Did you have any problems with wiring or existing parts?
Holy moly, the Motec M4 alone is fairly pricey!
Others have given me the advice to K.I.S.S. (keep it simple, stupid) and keep the distributor etc. As I don't plan on any further modifications I don't think I will need to go the whole hog on the management front.
Cheers for the heads up on Jetronic Boosted, I have heard people say that Jetronic can be tuned fairly well by the right people, but I think it would still not be as good as a new aftermarket system? But I am making sure the aftermarket system will definitely be better, hence all this investigation. I don't want to find my fuel consumption worse and idling gone to pot. And this would be a more interesting project!
stevesingo said:
I have done the same thing on my E30 M3 using a Motec M4 ECU and wiring adaptors supplied by Powerstation in Cheltnam.
I actually live in Cheltenham, so this is handy. But I emailed powerstation and they never replied. I'm pretty happy to try wiring it myself - did you wire yours yourself? How much was fitting if not?
Glad that it has made a noticeable difference on the M3 as our engines are very similar (but you have throttle bodies). Are you using the standard injectors? Did you have any problems with wiring or existing parts?
stevesingo said:
My advice would be go all the way as the initial expense is not much greater and you will have the gold standard. Using the Motec M4, expect this to cost you £1500-2000.
Holy moly, the Motec M4 alone is fairly pricey!
Others have given me the advice to K.I.S.S. (keep it simple, stupid) and keep the distributor etc. As I don't plan on any further modifications I don't think I will need to go the whole hog on the management front.
Cheers for the heads up on Jetronic Boosted, I have heard people say that Jetronic can be tuned fairly well by the right people, but I think it would still not be as good as a new aftermarket system? But I am making sure the aftermarket system will definitely be better, hence all this investigation. I don't want to find my fuel consumption worse and idling gone to pot. And this would be a more interesting project!
pentoman said:
I actually live in Cheltenham, so this is handy. But I emailed powerstation and they never replied. I'm pretty happy to try wiring it myself - did you wire yours yourself? How much was fitting if not?
I fitted mine myself using the adaptors and componants supplied by Powerstation. They would have to make up specific adaptors for your application. The fitting and mapping was £400 from Powerstation I think.
pentoman said:
Glad that it has made a noticeable difference on the M3 as our engines are very similar (but you have throttle bodies). Are you using the standard injectors? Did you have any problems with wiring or existing parts?
I am using standard injectors as the Motec can drive any type (you should check this with other EMS), even if you have to change injectors there are plenty available on ebay. Like I said above, Powerstation supplied all of the adaptors and fitting was easy.
pentoman said:
Holy moly, the Motec M4 alone is fairly pricey!
Others have given me the advice to K.I.S.S. (keep it simple, stupid) and keep the distributor etc. As I don't plan on any further modifications I don't think I will need to go the whole hog on the management front.
Others have given me the advice to K.I.S.S. (keep it simple, stupid) and keep the distributor etc. As I don't plan on any further modifications I don't think I will need to go the whole hog on the management front.
K.I.S.S is O.K (mine is currently as simple as it gets), but when you are paying for an ECU is seems wastful to me to not fully utilise all of it's functionality.
I am currently planning sequential injection and distributorless ignition, gathering up the hardware as I go along. If I were to do it again I would start from scratch and incorperate as much as possible from the start.
Keep us informed
Steve
Cheers Steve.
What are your reasons for going to sequential injection (I've heard it makes a small fuel economy difference and little/no power difference)?
And also why distributorless ignition, since you already have control of the timing of ignition and the distributor is simply sending it to the right plug?
Did they have to look at your car to supply you with the plugs/fittings? I'm guessing they'll know E30 m3's better than any Mercedes!
What are your reasons for going to sequential injection (I've heard it makes a small fuel economy difference and little/no power difference)?
And also why distributorless ignition, since you already have control of the timing of ignition and the distributor is simply sending it to the right plug?
Did they have to look at your car to supply you with the plugs/fittings? I'm guessing they'll know E30 m3's better than any Mercedes!
trackcar said:
Don't nkow if i've missed something here, but all the KE jetronic systems i've seen are an electronic trimmed version of the old mechanical K system. It's mechanical so you'd have to change your injectors .. 
Ahhhh..... you're right I don't remember seeing any plugs on the injectors. I will have to buy new injectors then... how does that work? Are they a standard fitment? Do I need a (new) fuel rail?
On the plus side it sounds like the upgrade from mechanical to electronics injectors would provide an even greater improvement.
pentoman said:
Cheers Steve.
What are your reasons for going to sequential injection (I've heard it makes a small fuel economy difference and little/no power difference)?
And also why distributorless ignition, since you already have control of the timing of ignition and the distributor is simply sending it to the right plug?
Did they have to look at your car to supply you with the plugs/fittings? I'm guessing they'll know E30 m3's better than any Mercedes!
What are your reasons for going to sequential injection (I've heard it makes a small fuel economy difference and little/no power difference)?
And also why distributorless ignition, since you already have control of the timing of ignition and the distributor is simply sending it to the right plug?
Did they have to look at your car to supply you with the plugs/fittings? I'm guessing they'll know E30 m3's better than any Mercedes!
Because I can
Seriously, better economy will be nice, smoother low speed running will be the benefits of sequential injection and the distributorless ignition will simplify things by not having a dizzy cap and possibly plug leads if I go for coip on plug.
Powerstation had already developed a kit for the M3 so it was an easy option to be honest.
If you injection is mechanical then you have more to gain, and it will not be any more work.
Steve
I thin you'd also need to adapt the inlet manifold to take efi style injectors, as fitment will be different to the old mechanical ones.
If wiring in a new system, a flying lead style kit, will be helpful. Is basicall a terminated loom at the ecu end, with long leads to go to the relevant sensors/actuators.
DTA I think offer these on their new ecu's, Autronic do the same, as do Haltech.
Ive used a couple of Haltech E8's recently, and they are pretty good, fairly easy to use software, and their flying lead kit is very good quality.
It will cope with 4 cyl sequential, with 4 coil support as well as soemthing like 4-5 other user configurable outputs ( more if you dont use all 4 coil outputs )
All you need to to is install, and terminate at the sensors.
DTA and Autronic ( and perhaps others ) have the benefit of full closed loop tuning via wideband, which is an extremely handy tool. Haltech apparently have this in the pipeline.
If wiring in a new system, a flying lead style kit, will be helpful. Is basicall a terminated loom at the ecu end, with long leads to go to the relevant sensors/actuators.
DTA I think offer these on their new ecu's, Autronic do the same, as do Haltech.
Ive used a couple of Haltech E8's recently, and they are pretty good, fairly easy to use software, and their flying lead kit is very good quality.
It will cope with 4 cyl sequential, with 4 coil support as well as soemthing like 4-5 other user configurable outputs ( more if you dont use all 4 coil outputs )
All you need to to is install, and terminate at the sensors.
DTA and Autronic ( and perhaps others ) have the benefit of full closed loop tuning via wideband, which is an extremely handy tool. Haltech apparently have this in the pipeline.
trackcar said:
Don't nkow if i've missed something here, but all the KE jetronic systems i've seen are an electronic trimmed version of the old mechanical K system. It's mechanical so you'd have to change your injectors ..
You can do some things to tune KE but the ecu takes care of a lot of it. How to tune & modify bosch fuel injection is a good read for those long winter nights
Ben Watson, isbn 0 87938 570 7 Boosted.
Thanks for the help so far.
DTA and Autronic ( and perhaps others ) have the benefit of full closed loop tuning via wideband, which is an extremely handy tool. Haltech apparently have this in the pipeline.
Ahh yes lambda sensors.. I don't have one of them (and no catalyst either), will I need to fit one? I hear wideband being talked about like it's sliced bread - do I need wideband and are they expensive?
According to Emerald I'll need to fit a new crank position sensor. "36-1 or 60-2"?
There's so many management system manufacturers.. how am I supposed to choose? I can live without the best software (especially as I don't plan any other tuning), but would really like easy component installation/wiring, and ideally something that can re-use the existing sensors on my car such as the temperature sensor.
What else might my current ECU control that I need to think about? This is Mercedes so I'm thinking they might have all sorts of cleverness going on that I don't want to screw up.
stevieturbo said:
DTA and Autronic ( and perhaps others ) have the benefit of full closed loop tuning via wideband, which is an extremely handy tool. Haltech apparently have this in the pipeline.
Ahh yes lambda sensors.. I don't have one of them (and no catalyst either), will I need to fit one? I hear wideband being talked about like it's sliced bread - do I need wideband and are they expensive?
According to Emerald I'll need to fit a new crank position sensor. "36-1 or 60-2"?
There's so many management system manufacturers.. how am I supposed to choose? I can live without the best software (especially as I don't plan any other tuning), but would really like easy component installation/wiring, and ideally something that can re-use the existing sensors on my car such as the temperature sensor.
What else might my current ECU control that I need to think about? This is Mercedes so I'm thinking they might have all sorts of cleverness going on that I don't want to screw up.
Edited by pentoman on Tuesday 12th September 09:38
You might want to check what crank position/speed sensor arrangment you have as standard, it may be compatable.
Aside from ignition and injectors you might want to control an Idle Speed Control Valve (ICV), but probably little else.
Wide Band Lambda (WBO2)is a useful tool, but if you are not tuning yourself you will not be needing it as any good tuner will have such equipment available to use when mapping.
Steve
Aside from ignition and injectors you might want to control an Idle Speed Control Valve (ICV), but probably little else.
Wide Band Lambda (WBO2)is a useful tool, but if you are not tuning yourself you will not be needing it as any good tuner will have such equipment available to use when mapping.
Steve
stevesingo said:
You might want to check what crank position/speed sensor arrangment you have as standard, it may be compatable.
Aside from ignition and injectors you might want to control an Idle Speed Control Valve (ICV), but probably little else.
Wide Band Lambda (WBO2)is a useful tool, but if you are not tuning yourself you will not be needing it as any good tuner will have such equipment available to use when mapping.
Steve
Aside from ignition and injectors you might want to control an Idle Speed Control Valve (ICV), but probably little else.
Wide Band Lambda (WBO2)is a useful tool, but if you are not tuning yourself you will not be needing it as any good tuner will have such equipment available to use when mapping.
Steve
Yep good point, I have an Idle Control Valve and it's my favourite item on the engine, would like to keep controlling that. Would that be easily set up?
Just thought of a few other functions:
In addition to the moving plate air flow meter, there's also an air intake temperature sensor and a barometric air pressure correction module. I would lose those functions and surely be worse off unless I could make them work with the new management system? Can a throttle position sensor be as good as a moving plate airflow sensor?
There's also a cold start injector for really low temperatures - can I keep that too?
pentoman said:
Yep good point, I have an Idle Control Valve and it's my favourite item on the engine, would like to keep controlling that. Would that be easily set up?
Easy. Just connect the relevent wiring and assign outputs from the ECU to control it. There are 2 and 3 wire types. 2 wire need one output three wire need two.
pentoman said:
Just thought of a few other functions:
In addition to the moving plate air flow meter, there's also an air intake temperature sensor and a barometric air pressure correction module. I would lose those functions and surely be worse off unless I could make them work with the new management system? Can a throttle position sensor be as good as a moving plate airflow sensor?
There's also a cold start injector for really low temperatures - can I keep that too?
The moving plate airflow meter is removed (It is an air restriction anyway) and the throttle position sensor (TPS) will work fine, trust me. You will need a Manifold Air Pressure (MAP) for fueling compensation for the ICV. It is also benefitial to have a baro sensor for ambient air pressure, but this is not essential. Air intake tempreture sensor will have to be retained.
As for cold start, the ECU will control this through the engine temp sesor and adjust accordingly via the 4 electrical injectors. The 5th injector can be removed.
Steve
P.S. Where in the world are you?
Good news on reuse of existing sensors/valves.
I hail from Cheltenham, Gloucestershire (I said that earlier
!)
I have heard just a TPS is fine for an N/A engine. But I still wonder why Mercedes chose an air flow meter combined with full throttle and closed throttle switches on the throttle linkage?
This is what I've found about how my current K(E?)-jetronic works:
Perhaps my "air flow meter" is just a mechanical "control vane", and directly controls the amount of fuel injected? Clever system, if somewhat lacking control compared to modern systems.
I hail from Cheltenham, Gloucestershire (I said that earlier
!) I have heard just a TPS is fine for an N/A engine. But I still wonder why Mercedes chose an air flow meter combined with full throttle and closed throttle switches on the throttle linkage?
This is what I've found about how my current K(E?)-jetronic works:
wikipedia said:
Bosch's K-Jetronic (or CIS, though that abbreviation also refers to the Constant Idle Speed subsystem used in many K-Jetronic installations) was introduced in 1974. In this system, fuel sprays constantly from the injectors, rather than being pulsed in time with the engine's intake strokes. Gasoline is pumped from the fuel tank to a large control valve called a fuel distributor, which separates the single fuel supply pipe from the tank into smaller pipes, one for each injector. The fuel distributor is mounted atop a control vane through which all intake air must pass, and the system works by varying fuel volume supplied to the injectors based on the angle of the air vane, which in turn is determined by the volume flowrate of air past the vane. The injectors are simple spring-loaded check valves with nozzles; once fuel system pressure becomes high enough to overcome the counterspring, the injectors begin spraying. K-Jetronic was used for many years between 1974 and the mid 1990s by Mercedes Benz, Volkswagen and Volvo. There was also a variant of the system called KE-Jetronic that used an oxygen sensor to fine-tune the mixture. Some Toyota models and other Japanese cars from the 1970's to the early 1990's used a licensed version of the L-Jetronic system made by DENSO.
Perhaps my "air flow meter" is just a mechanical "control vane", and directly controls the amount of fuel injected? Clever system, if somewhat lacking control compared to modern systems.
pentoman said:
I have heard just a TPS is fine for an N/A engine. But I still wonder why Mercedes chose an air flow meter combined with full throttle and closed throttle switches on the throttle linkage?
I dont belive the technology was available in as well developed form as it is today.
I think you have the potential for bigger gains than what I experienced as the Motronic on the M3 is more modern than the KE Jet-tronic you have.
pentoman said:
I hail from Cheltenham, Gloucestershire
A little bit far for me to let you have a go of mine then!
Steve
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