Forced induction

[Horse_Apple]

Afternoon,

Relatively ignorant but looking for an answer on what the effect would be if the air being drawn into a Rover V8 were to be forced in, but not at the top of the engine (as I believe would be the basic norm with a turbo or charger) but from the far end of the intake pipe?

Probably sounds like a very odd/daft question but there is a bit of logic.

TIA

[stevieturbo]

Horse_Apple said:

Afternoon,

Probably sounds like a very odd/daft question

TIA

Indeed.

Doesnt matter where its forced in from. End result is the same.

[Horse_Apple]

stevieturbo said:

Horse_Apple said:

Afternoon,

Probably sounds like a very odd/daft question

TIA

Indeed.

Doesnt matter where its forced in from. End result is the same.

Thanks Steve,

On a V8 TVR the manifolds come forward to a Y piece infront of the engine. If heat was taken off at that point and then used to drive air into the top of the engine from the intake also at the front then that would have a positive effect on performance?

The reason that I ask is that one of my clients has developed a new system which sounds very, very clever.

If air was to be forced into the engine would I be right in assuming there would need to be some ECU work carried out or is it more simple than that?

[GreenV8S]

stevieturbo said:

Horse_Apple said:

Afternoon,

Probably sounds like a very odd/daft question

TIA

Indeed.

Doesnt matter where its forced in from. End result is the same.

Might make a difference to lag?

[eliot]

Horse_Apple said:

stevieturbo said:

Horse_Apple said:

Afternoon,

Probably sounds like a very odd/daft question

TIA

Indeed.

Doesnt matter where its forced in from. End result is the same.

Thanks Steve,

On a V8 TVR the manifolds come forward to a Y piece infront of the engine. If heat was taken off at that point and then used to drive air into the top of the engine from the intake also at the front then that would have a positive effect on performance?

The reason that I ask is that one of my clients has developed a new system which sounds very, very clever.

If air was to be forced into the engine would I be right in assuming there would need to be some ECU work carried out or is it more simple than that?

Note sure if this is a piss-take - but you are describing a turbocharger, are you not?
Yes - you do need to manage fueling if stuffing more air inside.

[Horse_Apple]

Hi,

This device uses wasted heat from the manifolds rather than taking the gasses to turn a turbine or taking power off the crank.

The stats look awesome. Downside is that it won't work from cold but that's no real issue.

Not sure how much I can talk about it just yet but just trying to work out whether it would be of any use to me

[Mave]

Hmm, I'd be interested to see how it works, I'd be surprised if you can get much power from the manifolds (which is after all from the exhaust gas via conduction through the maifold thickness) vs a turbine

[GreenV8S]

I've seen quite a few ways to supercharge engines, but I can't relate this to any of them. You seem to be describing a compressor driven from a heat pump. I'm sure you can drive a heat pump from the exhaust, but you're going to need to find a heat sink if you're going to get any significant power out of it. And then you need to find an efficient way of converting that energy into mechanical power. It doesn't sound particularly promising to be honest. On the other hand it might just be a very bad description of a pressure wave supercharger or something like that.

[stevieturbo]

The qeury does seem a tad strange TBH.

[love machine]

Pressure wave supercharger???? Not heat from the zorst, pressure waves. I'd rather have a belt and a blower myself.

[Pigeon]

Oh, but they are so cool. Like a turbo, they don't sap power from the crank. Like a supercharger, they respond instantly. And you can get more boost. The only trouble is you can't start a two-stroke diesel with them



Some PDFs I found:
Principle of operation (2572k)
Small car with pressure wave supercharger (3568k)
Relevant formulae (204k)

Apparently Mazda built a diesel 626 with one, but all the pages about it seem to be in foreign.

[GreenV8S]

Pressure wave superchargers are usually belt driven too, aren't they? Just that the mechanical drive is just there to spin the cylinder at the right speed rather than to impart mechanical energy to the gas.

[Pigeon]

Exactly, they are belt driven but the drive consumes minimal power.

[annodomini2]

Looking at the picture I would have thought the system would have added too much backpressure in the exhaust and certainly more restriction than a turbo. I may be wrong of course!

[Horse_Apple]

Morning All,

It was a system that described to me by a friend who has just had one fitted to his Lamborgini as a test vehicle.

I agree with the above remarks as I can't see how a system using heat from the manifolds could produce any great force.

However, it creates pressure from the differential between hot air from the exhaust and cold air from outside. It was explained to me as the same method of the rear wing on an F1 car having the exhausts mounted just below to create additional downforce through the differential.

It still sounds weak to me, but his Lambo has been dyno'd at around 800 bhp on the back of the system.

This is why I was looking for some info from people who know a hell of a lot more than I do.

The system is patented by Antonov: www.antonov-transmission.com/

The system

[GreenV8S]

Antonov announced that they had produced an automatic gearbox to increase the operating range for an ordinary centrefugal blower, but this is nothing at all to do with heat from the exhaust, or anything else to do with the exhaust come to that. It's just a mechanically driven centrefugal blower. Is this what you're on about?

[Horse_Apple]

Hi Peter,

I genuinely do not know. I was lead to believe that while the system was mechanical it was driven by the differential between heat from the engine and cooler air from outside, rather than using a compresser or actual gas flow to achieve the charge.

It sounded fantastical to me to be able to produce enough force from wasted heat to increase induction pressure but there is apparently a car using the system to up output from 500 to 800bhp.

I was hoping someone may have already come across this and have more detail than I have.

Tim.

PS Nice S. Always had a soft spot for those.

Edited by Horse_Apple on Monday 7th August 12:19

[rev-erend]

As they say - nothing new in the world..

I think the Spitfire Merlin had a multi gear driven blower..

Good reuse of an old idea though..

As about half the engine power leaves via the exhaust - there is plenty of scope for development in this area..

Heat water, super heated steam, drive turbine with flywheel - instant stored energy.. you would only need an engine half the size as you would recoup much more that 30% of the fuel energy.

As ever - big companies like car companies and BP never really want to upset the apple cart So never really invest in what should be obvious.

[Horse_Apple]

Hi Rev,

Often wondered why a steam turbine couldn't be used as it is just about the oldest technology around and an engine has almost limitless supplies of steam.

[annodomini2]

Horse_Apple said:

Hi Rev,

Often wondered why a steam turbine couldn't be used as it is just about the oldest technology around and an engine has almost limitless supplies of steam.

Where are you planning on getting the water from?

1. You couldn't use the coolant.
2. It would be difficult to extract that generated during combustion.
3. So you would have to add a tank containing the water, plus the ancilliaries to support it, significantly increasing weight. Not to mention you'd have to fill up on water aswell as fuel.