Chargecooler vs intercooler volumetric efficiency
Discussion
Are they about on par volume for volume, or is a chargecooler more efficient so can be much smaller for the same cooling capability vs an intercooler (air-air)?
Do they have any downsides like pressure drop gradients being higher because of their cross-sections, or is it simply a superior yet slightly more costly design?
Just weighing up the two types and relative complexities/packaging issues.
Dave
Do they have any downsides like pressure drop gradients being higher because of their cross-sections, or is it simply a superior yet slightly more costly design?
Just weighing up the two types and relative complexities/packaging issues.
Dave
Chargecooler itself is always more efficient that an intercooler, BUT - you need to cool the water back down - via another radiator - so you end up with two sets of inefficiencies; one for the CC one for the Rad. So your overall efficiency will be at BEST the same as an intercooler, and probably likely to be less. My personal experience shows about 65% for my cooler core (which is poor, should be closer to 90%) with an overall 50% efficiency under boost.
Intercooler should be better that, but few people actually bother to measure the temperatures and prove that something works or not.
Other reasons to select chargcooling are:
1)Packaging and flexibility - no big holes to cut etc.
2)drag racing - you can have a tank of water full of ice, and actually get inlet temps lower than ambient.
You can read about my work on the subject here www.mez.co.uk/turbo11.html
Next stage on my project is cutting the cooler open and modifying the coolant passages.
I would look at Spearco coolers in the states as the yanks have more experience and data, I would suggest you avoid a popular manufacturer in the UK, as they seem to end up on ebay all to often - I think because they are poorly designed and implemented.
Take a look at this site www.are.com.au/Big%20HP/CraigsComm/hidden%20files/CraigsAWComorig.htm to see chargecooling done properly. He has lots of data and logs, prooving his designs work.
Intercooler should be better that, but few people actually bother to measure the temperatures and prove that something works or not.
Other reasons to select chargcooling are:
1)Packaging and flexibility - no big holes to cut etc.
2)drag racing - you can have a tank of water full of ice, and actually get inlet temps lower than ambient.
You can read about my work on the subject here www.mez.co.uk/turbo11.html
Next stage on my project is cutting the cooler open and modifying the coolant passages.
I would look at Spearco coolers in the states as the yanks have more experience and data, I would suggest you avoid a popular manufacturer in the UK, as they seem to end up on ebay all to often - I think because they are poorly designed and implemented.
Take a look at this site www.are.com.au/Big%20HP/CraigsComm/hidden%20files/CraigsAWComorig.htm to see chargecooling done properly. He has lots of data and logs, prooving his designs work.
eliot said:
Other reasons to select chargcooling are:
1)Packaging and flexibility - no big holes to cut etc.
2)drag racing - you can have a tank of water full of ice, and actually get inlet temps lower than ambient.
Shorter and less contorted intake path with less internal air volume possible than using an air/air IC that needs to be exposed to ambient air flow.
It may help if I describe the possible use of the coolers.
Basically I've sold my 306 Gti6 and picked up an identical spec car just with the derv Hdi unit.
I planned on having it "breathed on" because 90bhp from 167bhp is a big drop, and even the old Tdi 306's could be tweaked up mainly because they had an intercooler!
Yes, the Hdi has NO intercooler
A remap alone is £300 and that gets me 120bhp and 210lbft.
By no means strained but the figures would be 150bhp and 250lbft with a simple intercooler setup from almost exactly the same engine on the 406 which uses an intercooler!
In that form it's more efficient because of the cooler, so mpg doesn't suffer hugely, and I expect the lower intake temps aid longevity of certain components.
I keep seeing front mounted conversions for silly money, and shiny hosing everywhere, and silly slimline fans and brackets etc, but there must be something simpler. Chargecooling seems a good idea for an enclosed engine bay, and the imagery in that 1st link is really inspiring!
Rather than having metre's (literally) of large diameter piping, I could almost utilise the existing pipework from turbo to intake manifold and have a cooler and a U-bend. Then just route smaller piping effectively and cheaply to the front air-dam.
It'd be a load easier for me to do DIY, nothing OEM would really need moving or altering, and it'd probably be at least as efficient. I'm not after mega power. 140bhp and 200lbft+ in a car that is 80kg lighter than a gti6 to start with will be plenty for me!
Just weighing it up. May well just see if the old Tdi intake manifold fits and use the old top-mount intercooler and air-feed bonnet lining and plumb it in
Dave
Basically I've sold my 306 Gti6 and picked up an identical spec car just with the derv Hdi unit.
I planned on having it "breathed on" because 90bhp from 167bhp is a big drop, and even the old Tdi 306's could be tweaked up mainly because they had an intercooler!
Yes, the Hdi has NO intercooler
A remap alone is £300 and that gets me 120bhp and 210lbft.
By no means strained but the figures would be 150bhp and 250lbft with a simple intercooler setup from almost exactly the same engine on the 406 which uses an intercooler!
In that form it's more efficient because of the cooler, so mpg doesn't suffer hugely, and I expect the lower intake temps aid longevity of certain components.
I keep seeing front mounted conversions for silly money, and shiny hosing everywhere, and silly slimline fans and brackets etc, but there must be something simpler. Chargecooling seems a good idea for an enclosed engine bay, and the imagery in that 1st link is really inspiring!
Rather than having metre's (literally) of large diameter piping, I could almost utilise the existing pipework from turbo to intake manifold and have a cooler and a U-bend. Then just route smaller piping effectively and cheaply to the front air-dam.
It'd be a load easier for me to do DIY, nothing OEM would really need moving or altering, and it'd probably be at least as efficient. I'm not after mega power. 140bhp and 200lbft+ in a car that is 80kg lighter than a gti6 to start with will be plenty for me!
Just weighing it up. May well just see if the old Tdi intake manifold fits and use the old top-mount intercooler and air-feed bonnet lining and plumb it in
Dave
www.chargecooler.co.uk/
http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/Tubular-Turbo-C
Seems *quite* good... could happily bung the smallest one of those in the engine bay somewhere (almost same size as a 1.5L bottle of pop) then send a couple of 19mm hoses to a front mounted rad.
Anyone had any experience with these?
£550 quid in parts, then £350 remap... ~150bhp
Still too steep for my liking
Dave
http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/Tubular-Turbo-C
Seems *quite* good... could happily bung the smallest one of those in the engine bay somewhere (almost same size as a 1.5L bottle of pop) then send a couple of 19mm hoses to a front mounted rad.
Anyone had any experience with these?
£550 quid in parts, then £350 remap... ~150bhp
Still too steep for my liking
Dave
Space is rather limited unfortunately. Most of the aftermarket, and even Peugeot's HDi110 send the turbo boosted air under the engine and to the bottom of the radiator area, cool it, then send it back across the top of the engine.
It's just matching up several metres of custom piping that has to be fairly large diameter, vs the "place anywhere" nature of a charge cooler, and then 3/4 inch water pipes to a small radiator in the front.
Still, pick up the car this Friday. Will start looking how I can fit the old Tdi top-mount first as I have one of them spare right now, along with vented bonnet linings in any old turbo derv 306
I'll post back when I've got some interesting updates
Thanks for the links and ideas, very helpfull as a starting point!
Dave
It's just matching up several metres of custom piping that has to be fairly large diameter, vs the "place anywhere" nature of a charge cooler, and then 3/4 inch water pipes to a small radiator in the front.
Still, pick up the car this Friday. Will start looking how I can fit the old Tdi top-mount first as I have one of them spare right now, along with vented bonnet linings in any old turbo derv 306
I'll post back when I've got some interesting updates
Thanks for the links and ideas, very helpfull as a starting point!
Dave
if memory serves me correctly the 2.5td Citroen xm came with the same charge cooler system as used on the t16 (obviously not as swanky looking etc but the same componants). Mountin an intercooler in a 306 is a pain in the behind i am using a cosworth 2wd intercooler for mine and have the option of dropping the rad assembly and putting the cooler ontop of that (not happy about heatsoak but its what most people do with turbo conversions on 205's) or putting the intercooler below the rad with longer piping and squeezing my but cheeks together each time i go over a speed ramp, I am probably going with this option and investing in a 'spare pair' to keep in the glovebox
if memory serves me correctly the 2.5td Citroen xm came with the same charge cooler system as used on the t16 (obviously not as swanky looking etc but the same componants). Mountin an intercooler in a 306 is a pain in the behind i am using a cosworth 2wd intercooler for mine and have the option of dropping the rad assembly and putting the cooler ontop of that (not happy about heatsoak but its what most people do with turbo conversions on 205's) or putting the intercooler below the rad with longer piping and squeezing my but cheeks together each time i go over a speed ramp, I am probably going with this option and investing in a 'spare pair' to keep in the glovebox.
as for the hdi110 it is exactly the same engine as yours with an intercooler and a slightly different ecu map.
as for the hdi110 it is exactly the same engine as yours with an intercooler and a slightly different ecu map.
I've made some copper cored chargecoolers in a copper casing for an lsx build. They're really quite compact with tiddly 6" x2" x4" cores but I'm hoping that being small they'll stay cool for longer as the heat gets transferred away more quickly. The radiator will also be copper but big with lots of extraction ducting. I'll fit temperature probes later on to double check things.
Boosted.
with lots of extraction ducting. I'll fit temperature probes later on to double check things. Boosted.
My brother has an earlier 306 with the 1.9Tdi. He's bought a spare top-mount intercooler and tapped in some holes pre-core, post-core, and also on his intake.
Then he araldyted(sp?) the ambeint air-temp sensors you get on cars into holes and into the air-intake, and is now wanting to make a switch block to the readout display.
We'll be looking just what a good, or bad job the top-mounted one does, and how much the boosted air increases in temp from intake etc. Will be really interesting to see the results as I've not really seen many people go to the effort before.
I think the chargecooler is a great idea, it'll be different, just the risk of hydraulicing an engine if the jacket fails is a tad worrying as is how big will the chargecooler water cooler will need to be to make the system efficient enough to be worth the cost. I'm guessing they are smaller than the equivalent air>air-cooler that you'd use for the same overall system efficiency. Also, the piping shortness will hopefully increase response which is just as important as power gains to me really, as derv's are not really that repsonsive to start with before adding several metres of piping and a chiller (ala air>air intercooler)!
Dave
>> Edited by Mr Whippy on Wednesday 10th May 16:31
Then he araldyted(sp?) the ambeint air-temp sensors you get on cars into holes and into the air-intake, and is now wanting to make a switch block to the readout display.
We'll be looking just what a good, or bad job the top-mounted one does, and how much the boosted air increases in temp from intake etc. Will be really interesting to see the results as I've not really seen many people go to the effort before.
I think the chargecooler is a great idea, it'll be different, just the risk of hydraulicing an engine if the jacket fails is a tad worrying as is how big will the chargecooler water cooler will need to be to make the system efficient enough to be worth the cost. I'm guessing they are smaller than the equivalent air>air-cooler that you'd use for the same overall system efficiency. Also, the piping shortness will hopefully increase response which is just as important as power gains to me really, as derv's are not really that repsonsive to start with before adding several metres of piping and a chiller (ala air>air intercooler)!
Dave
>> Edited by Mr Whippy on Wednesday 10th May 16:31
Mr Whippy said:
www.chargecooler.co.uk/
http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/Tubular-Turbo-C
Seems *quite* good... could happily bung the smallest one of those in the engine bay somewhere (almost same size as a 1.5L bottle of pop) then send a couple of 19mm hoses to a front mounted rad.
Anyone had any experience with these?
£550 quid in parts, then £350 remap... ~150bhp
Still too steep for my liking
Dave
that vendor contacted me personally the other week telling me about his chargecoolers. I had already read some less than glowing reports about such barrel style chargecoolers, so being somewhat sceptical, I suggested that he sends me one or two to try out - if they work, it would be free advertising for his product etc.
Suffice to say, I've not heard from him since.
Yep, if they are not confident they'll stand upto simple efficiency scrutiny then what worth are they?
I'd like to think they work well... I keep seeing the odd charge cooler on Ebay and wonder if I could get one to fit...
Are there any simple rules of thumb for looking at my goals and what I'd need? Standard it boosts to ~ 1 bar, and has no cooler, so the intake temp is ~ 120 degree's so I hear.
If we use the guide of 1bhp for ever 1degC, then I'd need to loose 60 degree's, so getting the intake temp to maybe 60 degree's.
So it's 2000cc @ 1 bar and want to essentially reduce the boost temp by 50%... this is where my knowledge quickly ends, I rekon even a small ish top-mount from the 1.9Tdi will get it down though. Allard rekon their 35% larger area reduce temps on the 1.9 from 122 > 32 deg, so it'd make sense for a standard 1.9Tdi one to reduce 122 > 62 degree's maybe??
Hmmmm, just don't want to pay someone money to do this for two reasons:
1) It looks chavvy with chrome pipe's and blue bendy hoses everywhere, and I like black pipe and plastic!
2) They'll sell me a silly FMIC that takes up too much room, looks daft and is overkill for a 306 Hdi!
All help here is much appreciated. If a top-mount gets the above gains on the old 1.9 with a vented bonnet lining, then I'm guessing it'll get the same temp benefits for the Hdi and get me enough of a chill to get 145bhp or there about?
Dave
I'd like to think they work well... I keep seeing the odd charge cooler on Ebay and wonder if I could get one to fit...
Are there any simple rules of thumb for looking at my goals and what I'd need? Standard it boosts to ~ 1 bar, and has no cooler, so the intake temp is ~ 120 degree's so I hear.
If we use the guide of 1bhp for ever 1degC, then I'd need to loose 60 degree's, so getting the intake temp to maybe 60 degree's.
So it's 2000cc @ 1 bar and want to essentially reduce the boost temp by 50%... this is where my knowledge quickly ends, I rekon even a small ish top-mount from the 1.9Tdi will get it down though. Allard rekon their 35% larger area reduce temps on the 1.9 from 122 > 32 deg, so it'd make sense for a standard 1.9Tdi one to reduce 122 > 62 degree's maybe??
Hmmmm, just don't want to pay someone money to do this for two reasons:
1) It looks chavvy with chrome pipe's and blue bendy hoses everywhere, and I like black pipe and plastic!
2) They'll sell me a silly FMIC that takes up too much room, looks daft and is overkill for a 306 Hdi!
All help here is much appreciated. If a top-mount gets the above gains on the old 1.9 with a vented bonnet lining, then I'm guessing it'll get the same temp benefits for the Hdi and get me enough of a chill to get 145bhp or there about?
Dave
They look quite pricey so I can understand why they might not want to give them away for free trials. But I can't see any technical details on their site to explain the benefits of the cylindrical design to justify the extra cost and complexity.
From the outside I thought they would be trying to use the conical sections to expand the air flow and slow it down, but the picture seems to show the air smacking straight into the end of the matrix. From the positions of the water connetions I thought maybe they had managed to arrange a proper counterflow system (which would be really worth having) but there's no mention of this and no performance figures.
So as far as I can see the only selling point is that it is a blooming awkward long thing that's got to have space made for it right across the middle of the engine bay.
Am I missing some hidden advantage?
From the outside I thought they would be trying to use the conical sections to expand the air flow and slow it down, but the picture seems to show the air smacking straight into the end of the matrix. From the positions of the water connetions I thought maybe they had managed to arrange a proper counterflow system (which would be really worth having) but there's no mention of this and no performance figures.
So as far as I can see the only selling point is that it is a blooming awkward long thing that's got to have space made for it right across the middle of the engine bay.
Am I missing some hidden advantage?
GreenV8S said:
Am I missing some hidden advantage?
I dont think so.
Said vendor of product just replied to a further email I sent him earlier with "testing is conclusive as the product is used worldwide in racing and drag applications with results as expected!"
Which tells us nothing.Can we have some data please.
Almost as good as our snake oil thread.
I'm always suspicious when a vender makes 'guaranteed' claims.
I've got a pair of NASA, BUWEPS, Southern wind, Lockheed missile division blah blah cylindrical chargecoolers here and they aren't your normal run of the mill bog stock cores stuffed into a cylinder with 2" piping on the ends. I'd bet they're a lot better then what this vendor is selling. In fact, all he has of interest to me are nice pressed end sections and that's really the key to his product.
Downside is his pricing.
Boosted.
I've got a pair of NASA, BUWEPS, Southern wind, Lockheed missile division blah blah cylindrical chargecoolers here and they aren't your normal run of the mill bog stock cores stuffed into a cylinder with 2" piping on the ends. I'd bet they're a lot better then what this vendor is selling. In fact, all he has of interest to me are nice pressed end sections and that's really the key to his product.
Downside is his pricing.
Boosted.
It tells people on the blag trying to get free chargecoolers, sorry, but no!.
Basically, the main advantage of this type of unit is its compactness and ease of fitting in most applications. Compared to other CC's on the market, which are usually boxy or wide/fat etc, this unit can be integrated into any existing pipe run, eg, the main metal boost hose on a Noble, intake plenum on an MR2 etc.. It can be fitted in any orientation, rotation etc..
As for flow/ area etc, the crosssectional area of the tubes within the core is higher than the main inlet pipe area. The next sized cores are 6" diameter with 3" inlet and outlets, but for serious high cfm applications only..
The coolant passages run completely around and through the centre of the matrix. The main core is a complete extruded casting, no matter what length core, unlike other brands which have multiple cores welded together, and as you can see from the pictures, it is not a 'modified' intercooler core, it is a complete bespoke casting, with even internal finning of the channels to maximise surface area.
David
Basically, the main advantage of this type of unit is its compactness and ease of fitting in most applications. Compared to other CC's on the market, which are usually boxy or wide/fat etc, this unit can be integrated into any existing pipe run, eg, the main metal boost hose on a Noble, intake plenum on an MR2 etc.. It can be fitted in any orientation, rotation etc..
As for flow/ area etc, the crosssectional area of the tubes within the core is higher than the main inlet pipe area. The next sized cores are 6" diameter with 3" inlet and outlets, but for serious high cfm applications only..
The coolant passages run completely around and through the centre of the matrix. The main core is a complete extruded casting, no matter what length core, unlike other brands which have multiple cores welded together, and as you can see from the pictures, it is not a 'modified' intercooler core, it is a complete bespoke casting, with even internal finning of the channels to maximise surface area.
David
"As for flow/ area etc, the crosssectional area of the tubes within the core is higher than the main inlet pipe area. The next sized cores are 6" diameter with 3" inlet and outlets, but for serious high cfm applications only"
So it's fatter in the middle then the inlet & outlet pipes. Ok, I can live with that but that's really very normal. How fat do you want to go before you have a box?
"The coolant passages run completely around and through the centre of the matrix"
Isn't that what happens with a normal square core, stuck in a cylinder?
"The main core is a complete extruded casting, no matter what length core, unlike other brands which have multiple cores welded together"
So, it's the same length as other brands but one piece? How long could it be as a one piece unit? Most applications won't be longer then a 18" and I'm sure cores like that aren't hard to find.
"and as you can see from the pictures, it is not a 'modified' intercooler core, it is a complete bespoke casting, with even internal finning of the channels to maximise surface area"
But I could probably buy this elsewhere in a variety of depths/lengths. It's bound to chargecool but is expensive and as is the norm there's no data to say just how good it is. Basically, to me, it's a core in a cylinder and you can pick the length or diameter or both. I don't see why it's better then getting something made local.
Boosted.
Boosted.
So it's fatter in the middle then the inlet & outlet pipes. Ok, I can live with that but that's really very normal. How fat do you want to go before you have a box?
"The coolant passages run completely around and through the centre of the matrix"
Isn't that what happens with a normal square core, stuck in a cylinder?
"The main core is a complete extruded casting, no matter what length core, unlike other brands which have multiple cores welded together"
So, it's the same length as other brands but one piece? How long could it be as a one piece unit? Most applications won't be longer then a 18" and I'm sure cores like that aren't hard to find.
"and as you can see from the pictures, it is not a 'modified' intercooler core, it is a complete bespoke casting, with even internal finning of the channels to maximise surface area"
But I could probably buy this elsewhere in a variety of depths/lengths. It's bound to chargecool but is expensive and as is the norm there's no data to say just how good it is. Basically, to me, it's a core in a cylinder and you can pick the length or diameter or both. I don't see why it's better then getting something made local.
Boosted.
Boosted.
GreenV8S said:
Do you have access to a schematic of the insides of this thing? The only picture I could see on that site seemed to show a lot of obstruction at the entry.
I will supply a detailed photograph of the internal core, but think about it, as I mentioned above, the surface area of all the internal channels within the core is larger than the inlet area to the whole unit, which will then match the rest of the vehicles boost system, so the core is not as restrictive as the diameter of the intake system leading into it.
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