Using Subaru Box as a transaxle??
Discussion
Hi guys,
Just a really simple question, I have a Subaru engine and box sitting in Scotland awaiting my return from Oz. I got it in a deal and didn't really have any plans for it, then I had a brain flash.... boring day on the beach and all!!
Could the box be used as a transaxle, not using the rear prop output?? I am not sure how this would work, or even if it would work?
Any ideas, or technical infor people want to throw in.......
I think the Boxer engine would be ideal as a mid engine project, being low in height etc, so it would be just too good if the gearbox went straight in too.
Thanks all in advance,
Barry.
Just a really simple question, I have a Subaru engine and box sitting in Scotland awaiting my return from Oz. I got it in a deal and didn't really have any plans for it, then I had a brain flash.... boring day on the beach and all!!
Could the box be used as a transaxle, not using the rear prop output?? I am not sure how this would work, or even if it would work?
Any ideas, or technical infor people want to throw in.......
I think the Boxer engine would be ideal as a mid engine project, being low in height etc, so it would be just too good if the gearbox went straight in too.
Thanks all in advance,
Barry.
Thanks for the input!!!
Ok well that means that may have to modified.... however I had a thought, you do get 2wd Imprezas I am sure, so are they front wheel drive?
I would assume so, but then the question is whether they will handle a 300bhp turbo powerplant........
Hmmmmm interesting.
Ok well that means that may have to modified.... however I had a thought, you do get 2wd Imprezas I am sure, so are they front wheel drive?
I would assume so, but then the question is whether they will handle a 300bhp turbo powerplant........
Hmmmmm interesting.
e21jason said:
In NZ
The saker kit car uses a scooby flat 4 and modified box in a mid engien,trans axel setup. So i would say the answer is yes but how hard is it to do?
The easy way would be just to leave it as is an leave the rear output flange spinning in the air.
Jason
i think they use VW/Audi box's and scooby engines! but it might be worth having a look around the scooby sites as i think the US guys sometimes use 2wd dynos for 4WD cars so the most be a way of doing it!
but i think you should blow your money on a really nice Hewland sequential item! lol
Chris.
PS, come on then tell us what you plan on sticking it in! it sound good! and GGR has just got 380bhp and 370lbsft from simple bolt ons from the new 2.5 STI!!!! hmmmmmmmm got me thinking! lol
I kinda wanted to stay away from Renault etc, heard horros about them failing. Besides it would be so damn easy to just use all the Scooby running gear haha.
We have a Mk2 106 Rallye shell available, has full cage etc all done already, and also a wide arch kit(not tacky as it is the Maxi Kit Car copy) which would be good for the back axle width etc..
So was thinking of mid mounting the engine, with it being the boxer it would have a great low gravity centre, and then using the full front Scooby running gear you could mount it all to a spaceframe that attaches to the cage. Kind of how Z-cars do the Mini's with subframes. A lot of work, but would be a great project I think.
Had thought of full 4wd but not much room up front, besides rwd would be fun. Already though about 2.5 bottom end, with a mega reliable 330bhp and same torque I'm sure it would be a flier too.
Just read the PHead review on the Saker too, and it says a Subaru gearbox. Gonna email them.
>> Edited by bondibaz on Wednesday 22 March 02:21
We have a Mk2 106 Rallye shell available, has full cage etc all done already, and also a wide arch kit(not tacky as it is the Maxi Kit Car copy) which would be good for the back axle width etc..
So was thinking of mid mounting the engine, with it being the boxer it would have a great low gravity centre, and then using the full front Scooby running gear you could mount it all to a spaceframe that attaches to the cage. Kind of how Z-cars do the Mini's with subframes. A lot of work, but would be a great project I think.
Had thought of full 4wd but not much room up front, besides rwd would be fun. Already though about 2.5 bottom end, with a mega reliable 330bhp and same torque I'm sure it would be a flier too.
Just read the PHead review on the Saker too, and it says a Subaru gearbox. Gonna email them.
>> Edited by bondibaz on Wednesday 22 March 02:21
cooool mate sounds like one nice project!!! 
have you seen this months (getting on a bit) PPC??? a guy in there did a Fiat Cinquicento with a mid mounted coosy in there! lol actually quiet a nice motor!
just a thought if you cant get the Flat four to fit!!!
saw in a CCC an while babck about a guy using scooby gear to make a 4wd rally Focus was very interesting!
please keep us updated with all you findings
thanks Chris.
have you seen this months (getting on a bit) PPC??? a guy in there did a Fiat Cinquicento with a mid mounted coosy in there! lol actually quiet a nice motor!
just a thought if you cant get the Flat four to fit!!!
saw in a CCC an while babck about a guy using scooby gear to make a 4wd rally Focus was very interesting!
please keep us updated with all you findings
thanks Chris.
I actually thought of the same idea but never came across an engine+gearbox as you have.
I think it's make a great engine for a mid engined lightweight car, with the only possible weakness being that it would have probably too much torque in a lightweight car.
I mean, if the car is sub 700Kg, some of the torque could be swapped for BHP, making it easier to drive fast (on track of coure
)
Keep us posted on your findings.
BTW, was always curious, how much does the engine, turbo and gearbox weigh?
I think it's make a great engine for a mid engined lightweight car, with the only possible weakness being that it would have probably too much torque in a lightweight car.
I mean, if the car is sub 700Kg, some of the torque could be swapped for BHP, making it easier to drive fast (on track of coure
) Keep us posted on your findings.
BTW, was always curious, how much does the engine, turbo and gearbox weigh?
PPC??? Sorry I have been in Oz a while is that a Magazine?
Not sure on the weight of the combo to be honest(will weight it at some point), but after lifting the engine with everything bar the exhaust headers and turbo attached it's not any heavier than the cast iron TU blocks the cars come with in the front.......... I think with it all done and maybe using bespoke rear suspension that will be lighter than normal it should be around 700kg's yes. I also thought about all that torque, don't think I will be going 2.5l bottom end haha
I suppose the benefit of it being charged is that you can map out the mid range boost spike though.
Well I will let you know how it goes guys!!
Thanks for the input.
Barry.
Not sure on the weight of the combo to be honest(will weight it at some point), but after lifting the engine with everything bar the exhaust headers and turbo attached it's not any heavier than the cast iron TU blocks the cars come with in the front.......... I think with it all done and maybe using bespoke rear suspension that will be lighter than normal it should be around 700kg's yes. I also thought about all that torque, don't think I will be going 2.5l bottom end haha
I suppose the benefit of it being charged is that you can map out the mid range boost spike though.
Well I will let you know how it goes guys!!
Thanks for the input.
Barry.
ok mate i will try and get it scanned for you!
dont think you guyss have to cossy engine over there (or you would have doen some mad things to it! lol) but there is nothing stpoing you useing a 4g63 from a mitsubishi if the scooby engine and trany dont fit!
have you thought about intercooling the flat four?? are you just going to duct air onto it or run a nice big chargecooler??? hehe
anyway keep us posted on how it all goes.
Chris.
dont think you guyss have to cossy engine over there (or you would have doen some mad things to it! lol) but there is nothing stpoing you useing a 4g63 from a mitsubishi if the scooby engine and trany dont fit!
have you thought about intercooling the flat four?? are you just going to duct air onto it or run a nice big chargecooler??? hehe
anyway keep us posted on how it all goes.
Chris.
Sorry when I said a while I meant like 6-7 months!! I know what a bloody Cossie engine is , my best made has an Escort Cos hahaha!! I just had never heard of that Mag, truth is after CCC stopped I stopped buying any.
Yeah I was think IC, not sure how yet as I would like to keep it unassuming, well as much as a Wide Arch 106 Maxi can look I suppose. Maybe chargecooler could/would work better though. Not sure yet, gear change will be biggest issue I think.
, my best made has an Escort Cos hahaha!! I just had never heard of that Mag, truth is after CCC stopped I stopped buying any. Yeah I was think IC, not sure how yet as I would like to keep it unassuming, well as much as a Wide Arch 106 Maxi can look I suppose. Maybe chargecooler could/would work better though. Not sure yet, gear change will be biggest issue I think.
bondibaz said:
I kinda wanted to stay away from Renault etc, heard horros about them failing. Besides it would be so damn easy to just use all the Scooby running gear haha.
>> Edited by bondibaz on Wednesday 22 March 02:21
Whats the matter with Renault boxes? Stories are just that - stories.
I have several Renault boxes with big V8's on them and not broken 1. My latest one will have a 6600cc V8 producing 550hp/500ftlb into a Renault UN1-13 box. I saw a friend whom has a Subaru gearbox being rebuild from failure. The gears were tiny in comparison to the Renault. He uses the subby box in a rally car and has broken many a gear and differential unit.
I will say though that the UN1-13 is fitted with a 1-peice input shaft, 2 new gears and 4-spider diff unit from a R30.
But like anything, you abuse it, you will break it.
Its actually easy to make a scooby box 2wd, and fortunately because the scoobys started out with a high front end torque split the box is not too weak when run as a 2wd box (although nowhere as near strong as say a propely designed transaxle)(just look how small the diff is for example). You need to strip the box, remove the centre diff, and have a "spool" centre machined, effectively this simply fixes the power input (which normally goes to the outside of the centre diff, and is then split front and rear) to the front output shaft. then rebuild the box with the rear output shaft removed and blanked off, and there you go, one 2wd scooby box.
As for the low C of G argument with boxer engines, this is true if you mount the crank centre line at the same height as for a normal 4cyl in-line. However due to the fact that there has to be space for the exhasust system and oil sump underneath, the crank centre line is very high in a scooby. In fact if you park a scooby next to say a ford focus and open both bonnets it's easy to see how high the engine is in the scooby. If the engine C of G is actually any lower in a scooby than any other car i'd be amazed! (especially when you look where the turbo and intercooler are!)
As for the low C of G argument with boxer engines, this is true if you mount the crank centre line at the same height as for a normal 4cyl in-line. However due to the fact that there has to be space for the exhasust system and oil sump underneath, the crank centre line is very high in a scooby. In fact if you park a scooby next to say a ford focus and open both bonnets it's easy to see how high the engine is in the scooby. If the engine C of G is actually any lower in a scooby than any other car i'd be amazed! (especially when you look where the turbo and intercooler are!)
The width of the motor may be a problem in some mid-mounts, would pay to check that out.
if you wanted an extremely low c.o.g. you could always dry-sump it
as far as gearboxes go, comparing reliabilty of a 'box used in rallies with a road box is pointless, rallying abuses the 'box like nothing else (a guy down here kept destroying supposedly bulletproof Toyota Supra boxes in a 4.0 V8 Avenger rally car, had to get a new box custom built). if you're using the car on road or track rather than gravel the Scoob box should be fine, especially if its 2wd as the tyres will then let go earlier so less force should be impacting the clutch/box.
if you wanted an extremely low c.o.g. you could always dry-sump it
as far as gearboxes go, comparing reliabilty of a 'box used in rallies with a road box is pointless, rallying abuses the 'box like nothing else (a guy down here kept destroying supposedly bulletproof Toyota Supra boxes in a 4.0 V8 Avenger rally car, had to get a new box custom built). if you're using the car on road or track rather than gravel the Scoob box should be fine, especially if its 2wd as the tyres will then let go earlier so less force should be impacting the clutch/box.
[quote=GravelBen]
if you wanted an extremely low c.o.g. you could always dry-sump it
quote]
Unfortunately that wouldn't really help for 2 reasons:
1) you still need space for the exhaust manifolds to fit underneath
2) the gear box is designed with the input shaft ABOVE the differential output shaft, so if you managed to get the engine really low, the bottom of the box would be scraping on the ground, and the drive shafts would have to be angled up to the wheel centres at an extreme angle (unless you run 10" mini wheels!)
if you wanted an extremely low c.o.g. you could always dry-sump it
quote]
Unfortunately that wouldn't really help for 2 reasons:
1) you still need space for the exhaust manifolds to fit underneath
2) the gear box is designed with the input shaft ABOVE the differential output shaft, so if you managed to get the engine really low, the bottom of the box would be scraping on the ground, and the drive shafts would have to be angled up to the wheel centres at an extreme angle (unless you run 10" mini wheels!)
max_torque said:
if you wanted an extremely low c.o.g. you could always dry-sump it
Unfortunately that wouldn't really help for 2 reasons:
1) you still need space for the exhaust manifolds to fit underneath
2) the gear box is designed with the input shaft ABOVE the differential output shaft, so if you managed to get the engine really low, the bottom of the box would be scraping on the ground, and the drive shafts would have to be angled up to the wheel centres at an extreme angle (unless you run 10" mini wheels!)
I stand corrected. hadn't thought of that.
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