Solid boost pipe connections

[Otispunkmeyer]

Hi all,

is there anything out there for doing proper solid boost pipe connections. ie. rather than running a bit of samco hose between bits of stainless pipe and maybe welding some bead around the pipes for extra "grip". Is there anything that is like solid metal to metal clamping?

one of the problems we have is boost pipes slipping off because they get a bit jelly like and also get oily inside so eventually they slip, especially running high boost for longer periods of time.

[Tony1963]

If needed between turbo and intercooler, and/or intercooler and engine, wouldn’t they need to be slightly flexible anyway?

[generationx]

On some WRC projects I’ve used these:

https://www.mishimoto.eu/mishimoto-aluminium-v-ban...

As mentioned above be aware of any required flexibility, pipe position tolerance and pipe expansion/direction due to heat.

[Otispunkmeyer]

Tony1963 said:

If needed between turbo and intercooler, and/or intercooler and engine, wouldn’t they need to be slightly flexible anyway?

Perhaps. The engine is not in a vehicle but on a test bed. The intercoolers are Bowman HEs. I guess some flex would be needed for the vibrations you get when cranking but everythng is mounted off the same air-bed so it all moves together for the most part. My idea is to try remove as many of the silcone hose joints as possible. Even a lot of the OE pipes and connectors supplied don't last that long as they're only really seeing temporary heat and pressure on the vehicle, where as we're doing it for a long time and you start to find a lot of this stuff is now pretty marginal.

Even if its just better hose, would be an improvement. We've got RacingLines and Samco hoses but they all go the same way. They get too hot and go a bit jelly like. Another improvement would be to solid mount pipework, particularly bends, to stop the reaction forces literally pushing pipe away from each other.

[poppopbangbang]

Wiggins connectors are the go to for this sort of thing in professional motorsport etc.

https://www.clarendonsf.com/products/clamps-coupli...


One thing to note though is that silicones and beads with proper hose clips are fairly incredible in the pressure and cycles that they'll manage. If you are having failures it's worth taking note of the following:

- Hose beading, the beading should be of an equal diameter and angle across its entire surface and the bead height should be within a 5% tolerance of that recommended as ideal by the hose manufacturer. Beading should be applied with the correct beading tool for the application.
- Hoses and pipes should be absolutely clean when making the connection, brake cleaner or similar should be used to ensure any oils or lubricants are removed from the pipes and hoses before joining.
- Hose clips should be Jubilee in 9.7mm width torqued to 6NM or 15.7mm if high torque and torqued to 12NM.

The seal in a correctly made silcone to beaded pipe connection is made by the silicone of the pipe compressing against the bead. The pipe retention is performed by the hose clip being a smaller diameter than is possible to pass over the bead with the silicone hose between in and the bead. If done correctly they're an incredibly strong joint that allows more misalignment than is possible with a Wiggins or similar.

Edited by poppopbangbang on Monday 1st July 12:54

[Otispunkmeyer]

generationx said:

On some WRC projects I’ve used these:

https://www.mishimoto.eu/mishimoto-aluminium-v-ban...

As mentioned above be aware of any required flexibility, pipe position tolerance and pipe expansion/direction due to heat.

Yeah stuff like this looks good/ Bit of a ball ache to get someone to weld them up onto pipe but we lose so much time chasing leaks and boost pipes coming apart I think they need to seriously consider provisioning stuff like this.

[generationx]

poppopbangbang said:

Wiggins connectors are the go to for this sort of thing in professional motorsport etc.

https://www.clarendonsf.com/products/clamps-coupli...

Yes, a very nice solution.

[Otispunkmeyer]

poppopbangbang said:

Wiggins connectors are the go to for this sort of thing in professional motorsport etc.

https://www.clarendonsf.com/products/clamps-coupli...


One thing to note though is that silicones and beads with proper hose clips are fairly incredible in the pressure and cycles that they'll manage. If you are having failures it's worth taking note of the following:

- Hose beading, the beading should be of an equal diameter and angle across its entire surface and the bead height should be within a 5% tolerance of that recommended as ideal by the hose manufacturer. Beading should be applied with the correct beading tool for the application.
- Hoses and pipes should be absolutely clean when making the connection, brake cleaner or similar should be used to ensure any oils or lubricants are removed from the pipes and hoses before joining.
- Hose clips should be Jubilee in 9.7mm width torqued to 6NM or 15.7mm if high torque and torqued to 12NM.

The seal in a correctly made silcone to beaded pipe connection is made by the silicone of the pipe compressing against the bead. The pipe retention is performed by the hose clip being a smaller diameter than is possible to pass over the bead with the silicone hose between in and the bead. If done correctly they're an incredibly strong joint that allows more misalignment than is possible with a Wiggins or similar.

Edited by poppopbangbang on Monday 1st July 12:54

Only 160degC temperature though? (we've got a compressor out of 190 on this engine and we've had a few in the past do over 200).

The AeroFlo product looks very nice though (on their couplings products page).

Re your last points: I do think this is the crux of the problem. The guys doing the install always scrattin around for bits of tube and bits of hose and then someone tigs a few blobs on the end of the pipe to give it more purchase. It needs doing properly as you say, it needs proper tools to add the beading and new, clean hose buying every time.

[poppopbangbang]

Otispunkmeyer said:

Only 160degC temperature though? (we've got a compressor out of 190 on this engine and we've had a few in the past do over 200).

Tempeature limit is defined primarily by the o-ring material. FFKM o-rings will allow north of 300 degrees C (but the annodising on the Wiggins will discolour! :laugh).

Otispunkmeyer said:

Re your last points: I do think this is the crux of the problem. The guys doing the install always scrattin around for bits of tube and bits of hose and then someone tigs a few blobs on the end of the pipe to give it more purchase. It needs doing properly as you say, it needs proper tools to add the beading and new, clean hose buying every time.

A half decent beading tool is around £150 - https://www.t7design.co.uk/t7design-aluminium-tube... , there are some even cheaper ones but they'll be lacking the steel front plate so will get beaten up pretty quickly.

When I was on engine dyno duty many years ago I put together a dyno kit of a stock of aluminium pipe which could be easily chopped to size and beaded along with a selection of 90's, 45's and straight joiners. Once used all this went through the hot wash and back onto the shelf to go again. It all lasts a really long time when it's going onto nicely beaded pipe with proper clips etc.

[Otispunkmeyer]

poppopbangbang said:

Otispunkmeyer said:

Only 160degC temperature though? (we've got a compressor out of 190 on this engine and we've had a few in the past do over 200).

Tempeature limit is defined primarily by the o-ring material. FFKM o-rings will allow north of 300 degrees C (but the annodising on the Wiggins will discolour! :laugh).

Otispunkmeyer said:

Re your last points: I do think this is the crux of the problem. The guys doing the install always scrattin around for bits of tube and bits of hose and then someone tigs a few blobs on the end of the pipe to give it more purchase. It needs doing properly as you say, it needs proper tools to add the beading and new, clean hose buying every time.

A half decent beading tool is around £150 - https://www.t7design.co.uk/t7design-aluminium-tube... , there are some even cheaper ones but they'll be lacking the steel front plate so will get beaten up pretty quickly.

When I was on engine dyno duty many years ago I put together a dyno kit of a stock of aluminium pipe which could be easily chopped to size and beaded along with a selection of 90's, 45's and straight joiners. Once used all this went through the hot wash and back onto the shelf to go again. It all lasts a really long time when it's going onto nicely beaded pipe with proper clips etc.

Thanks for those.

I will have to ask the question with our lot why we're not using alu pipe. Its all SS. I understand that for exhausts but not the other end! I bet its to do with not having anyone or any kit to weld Alu. But then again we don't really have the people to weld SS either (although it can at least be done at a push).

[poppopbangbang]

Otispunkmeyer said:

Thanks for those.

I will have to ask the question with our lot why we're not using alu pipe. Its all SS. I understand that for exhausts but not the other end! I bet its to do with not having anyone or any kit to weld Alu. But then again we don't really have the people to weld SS either (although it can at least be done at a push).

63.5mm 6063 Ally tube is circa £12 a metre so well worth getting yourself some stock and a beading tool. You could buy a lot of tube and joiners for the price of a few Wiggins. There's a lot of bodge options to avoid having to weld tube too, T pieces can be used for breathers and recirculating elements etc.

Are you running different engine configurations every time or is it a case of one dyno and four or five engine configurations?

[Tony1963]

poppopbangbang said:

Wiggins connectors are the go to for this sort of thing in professional motorsport etc.

https://www.clarendonsf.com/products/clamps-coupli...

Edited by poppopbangbang on Monday 1st July 12:54

They look exactly the same as the connectors used on the Apache helicopter warm air system piping! I honestly can't remember the temps and pressures, but once fitted there were never any problems.

[Otispunkmeyer]

poppopbangbang said:

Otispunkmeyer said:

Thanks for those.

I will have to ask the question with our lot why we're not using alu pipe. Its all SS. I understand that for exhausts but not the other end! I bet its to do with not having anyone or any kit to weld Alu. But then again we don't really have the people to weld SS either (although it can at least be done at a push).

63.5mm 6063 Ally tube is circa £12 a metre so well worth getting yourself some stock and a beading tool. You could buy a lot of tube and joiners for the price of a few Wiggins. There's a lot of bodge options to avoid having to weld tube too, T pieces can be used for breathers and recirculating elements etc.

Are you running different engine configurations every time or is it a case of one dyno and four or five engine configurations?

Its just because they had a load of SS stock and don't want to re-buy. Just being tight.

It is different engine configs yeah. Currently passenger car engine at the moment but will often swap to Heavy Duty stuff (so then you need big pipes and some of this stuff is absolutely creaming the boost pressures as well).

We also tend to do quite esoteric and very dynamic tests which can absolutely hammer the equipment.

[stevieturbo]

Otispunkmeyer said:

Hi all,

is there anything out there for doing proper solid boost pipe connections. ie. rather than running a bit of samco hose between bits of stainless pipe and maybe welding some bead around the pipes for extra "grip". Is there anything that is like solid metal to metal clamping?

one of the problems we have is boost pipes slipping off because they get a bit jelly like and also get oily inside so eventually they slip, especially running high boost for longer periods of time.

Welding is pretty solid.

Sounds more like poor/shoddy installation if you're having these problems though. Why are your pipes full of oil ?

Wiggins type clamps are an option, but sounds like you have other issues to fix.

[poppopbangbang]

Otispunkmeyer said:

Its just because they had a load of SS stock and don't want to re-buy. Just being tight.

It is different engine configs yeah. Currently passenger car engine at the moment but will often swap to Heavy Duty stuff (so then you need big pipes and some of this stuff is absolutely creaming the boost pressures as well).

We also tend to do quite esoteric and very dynamic tests which can absolutely hammer the equipment.

Well you can still bead stainless with a beading tool but they tend to be a bit bigger and tougher than the ones made to do ally. You can do it with an ally one but slowly is the order of the day which isn't great for a production environement.

Feel your pain as there's nothing more tricky than a one size fits all dyno as there's no chance for standardising much. Cost wise though a beading tool and some hose stock will cost a whole lot less than options such as Wiggins etc. and hose joiners lend themselves to this sort of working environment due to support quite large misalignments etc.

[poppopbangbang]

Tony1963 said:

They look exactly the same as the connectors used on the Apache helicopter warm air system piping! I honestly can't remember the temps and pressures, but once fitted there were never any problems.

I think they are likely one and the same, only the motorsport ones don't have the traceability etc. (or part numbers!) than the aerospace version has.

[Otispunkmeyer]

stevieturbo said:

Otispunkmeyer said:

Hi all,

is there anything out there for doing proper solid boost pipe connections. ie. rather than running a bit of samco hose between bits of stainless pipe and maybe welding some bead around the pipes for extra "grip". Is there anything that is like solid metal to metal clamping?

one of the problems we have is boost pipes slipping off because they get a bit jelly like and also get oily inside so eventually they slip, especially running high boost for longer periods of time.

Welding is pretty solid.

Sounds more like poor/shoddy installation if you're having these problems though. Why are your pipes full of oil ?

Wiggins type clamps are an option, but sounds like you have other issues to fix.

Diesel engine. That's why.

Breather routes into one of the turbo intakes so thats all grimy and it just builds up. We are also running an altitude simulator so that can cause a bit of weeping from the turbo seals or cause a little more stuff to arrive in the breather (we do have a catch can).

On some engines with "costed down" seals, the altitude simulator can do all sorts of wonderful things with the engine oil most of which involve it not being in the engine very long! (without some modifications of course). This one appears to be OK though.

[stevieturbo]

Otispunkmeyer said:

Diesel engine. That's why.

Breather routes into one of the turbo intakes so thats all grimy and it just builds up. We are also running an altitude simulator so that can cause a bit of weeping from the turbo seals or cause a little more stuff to arrive in the breather (we do have a catch can).

On some engines with "costed down" seals, the altitude simulator can do all sorts of wonderful things with the engine oil most of which involve it not being in the engine very long! (without some modifications of course). This one appears to be OK though.

Then fix the breather system or re-route it

[stevieturbo]

poppopbangbang said:

Well you can still bead stainless with a beading tool but they tend to be a bit bigger and tougher than the ones made to do ally. You can do it with an ally one but slowly is the order of the day which isn't great for a production environement.

Feel your pain as there's nothing more tricky than a one size fits all dyno as there's no chance for standardising much. Cost wise though a beading tool and some hose stock will cost a whole lot less than options such as Wiggins etc. and hose joiners lend themselves to this sort of working environment due to support quite large misalignments etc.

It only takes a few seconds to weld a bead on a pipe in lieu of a bead roller.

I've never had any issues with pipes blowing off when clamped properly on beaded ends, although I've only used up to around 45psi boost.

And arguably stainless is better anyway as you can clamp harder ( although often that is not the real solution ) without squashing the base pipe.

I've seen morons completely crush aluminium pipes with t-bolt clamps massively overtightening them, when a bog standard worm drive clamp would have been all they ever needed.

Hell, I even seen an even bigger moron crush a stainless pipe in the same manner. Still don't know how they managed that, or indeed the clamp, but they did !!!

But let's face it, there are so many options these days there are always solutions.

[Otispunkmeyer]

stevieturbo said:

Otispunkmeyer said:

Diesel engine. That's why.

Breather routes into one of the turbo intakes so thats all grimy and it just builds up. We are also running an altitude simulator so that can cause a bit of weeping from the turbo seals or cause a little more stuff to arrive in the breather (we do have a catch can).

On some engines with "costed down" seals, the altitude simulator can do all sorts of wonderful things with the engine oil most of which involve it not being in the engine very long! (without some modifications of course). This one appears to be OK though.

Then fix the breather system or re-route it

Not up to me. Customer wants/needs it that way for emissions and it's a fairly old engine. Can't really go into more detail unfortunately.