Engine failure after garage fix. Is garage in the wrong?
Discussion
Hi all, hoping someone could offer me some advice with this scenario I find myself in.
My timing chain went on my BMW X3 2011 f25. I had a new one done by a local garage. They also said the turbo was on its way out, so they put a reconditioned one in. The cost went from
"£900-£1300, depending on the damage"
To costing over £2200 with the turbo
For a job that was meant to take 16 hours labour, I eventually got the car back 4-5 weeks later.
I had the car back for 15 minutes, when the engine oil pressure warning came on and the car went into limp mode. I drove for a mile or so and then the brake pedal went completely solid and I could not bring the car to a stop. Luckily I was on a residential street, so coasted to a stop.
The car was towed back to the garage. 2 weeks later I had the car back and they explained that a bolt had sheared off somewhere and this caused a blockage. They mentioned oil feed pumps and brake servos. I wasn't sure what had actually happened but was just happy to have the car back, working.
A week later, The turbo started sounding noisier when the car was due an MOT. i went to my usual place who dont do timing chains. They immediately picked up on the turbo and said it was screaming. They said it needs to be towed back to whoever fitted the turbo. They said the oil feed pipe had not been changed. They said they would always change this when fitting a new turbo and that it should come with a fittings kit. They said any future turbos fitted could do the exact same thing if this part isnt replaced. They also said this needs rectifying immediately because oil could come back into the engine and this would knaker the engine.
The car was then towed back to the other garage and the turbo replaced under warranty. They said it must have been a dodgy turbo and they are all reconditioned by hand. They said that this particular turbo doesnt come with a fittings kit and so they woud not change the fittings. I explained what the other garage had said and they said repeated that it doesnt come with a fittings kit but they had checked the oil feed pipe etc and all was good.
I spoke again with the other garage after this and they said, it doesnt matter if it came with a fittings kit, that they should have seperately aquired those parts, which isnt hard. They said they wouldnt replace a turbo without a fittings kit.
After this I was reluctant to drive any further than work and back but after 2 weeks of no issues, i decided to take my newly acquired caravan on its maiden voyage. I have never towed before but in hindsight, the car was struggling to pull the caravan, which Im told should not have been the case.
After 15 minutes of driving I went up a bank and started to hear a clicking in the engine. I drove for 5 minutes until I found a suitable place to pull in. At this point the engine was screaming and sounding like a machine gun. It cut out as I pulled in.
The RAC towed the car back to the same garage. They have now informed me that the DPF was completely blocked, so engine gasses have been building up in the engine. This has resulted in the
"bottom crank going and the bearings are knackered"
The engine is now a write-off.
Can anyone offer any advice on this?
I feel a bit stitched up by the garage. I'm not a car person but feel like the car has not been running properly since I had it back off them. They say they fixed the jobs that I wanted doing in the car and they can't forsee everything that is going to go wrong with a car.
Should they have not had some realisation that the DPF was completely blocked if they replaced the turbo twice and had the engine out to do the timing chain?
I did suggest it would be cheaper to try and source another engine when the price first started creeping up and the owner said it would cost a lot more to do that. He now says in hindsight it would have been better to get another engine.
My timing chain went on my BMW X3 2011 f25. I had a new one done by a local garage. They also said the turbo was on its way out, so they put a reconditioned one in. The cost went from
"£900-£1300, depending on the damage"
To costing over £2200 with the turbo
For a job that was meant to take 16 hours labour, I eventually got the car back 4-5 weeks later.
I had the car back for 15 minutes, when the engine oil pressure warning came on and the car went into limp mode. I drove for a mile or so and then the brake pedal went completely solid and I could not bring the car to a stop. Luckily I was on a residential street, so coasted to a stop.
The car was towed back to the garage. 2 weeks later I had the car back and they explained that a bolt had sheared off somewhere and this caused a blockage. They mentioned oil feed pumps and brake servos. I wasn't sure what had actually happened but was just happy to have the car back, working.
A week later, The turbo started sounding noisier when the car was due an MOT. i went to my usual place who dont do timing chains. They immediately picked up on the turbo and said it was screaming. They said it needs to be towed back to whoever fitted the turbo. They said the oil feed pipe had not been changed. They said they would always change this when fitting a new turbo and that it should come with a fittings kit. They said any future turbos fitted could do the exact same thing if this part isnt replaced. They also said this needs rectifying immediately because oil could come back into the engine and this would knaker the engine.
The car was then towed back to the other garage and the turbo replaced under warranty. They said it must have been a dodgy turbo and they are all reconditioned by hand. They said that this particular turbo doesnt come with a fittings kit and so they woud not change the fittings. I explained what the other garage had said and they said repeated that it doesnt come with a fittings kit but they had checked the oil feed pipe etc and all was good.
I spoke again with the other garage after this and they said, it doesnt matter if it came with a fittings kit, that they should have seperately aquired those parts, which isnt hard. They said they wouldnt replace a turbo without a fittings kit.
After this I was reluctant to drive any further than work and back but after 2 weeks of no issues, i decided to take my newly acquired caravan on its maiden voyage. I have never towed before but in hindsight, the car was struggling to pull the caravan, which Im told should not have been the case.
After 15 minutes of driving I went up a bank and started to hear a clicking in the engine. I drove for 5 minutes until I found a suitable place to pull in. At this point the engine was screaming and sounding like a machine gun. It cut out as I pulled in.
The RAC towed the car back to the same garage. They have now informed me that the DPF was completely blocked, so engine gasses have been building up in the engine. This has resulted in the
"bottom crank going and the bearings are knackered"
The engine is now a write-off.
Can anyone offer any advice on this?
I feel a bit stitched up by the garage. I'm not a car person but feel like the car has not been running properly since I had it back off them. They say they fixed the jobs that I wanted doing in the car and they can't forsee everything that is going to go wrong with a car.
Should they have not had some realisation that the DPF was completely blocked if they replaced the turbo twice and had the engine out to do the timing chain?
I did suggest it would be cheaper to try and source another engine when the price first started creeping up and the owner said it would cost a lot more to do that. He now says in hindsight it would have been better to get another engine.
Edited by jolt321 on Sunday 12th November 06:58
In my mind this all goes back to the drop in oil pressure, that should have been an immediate stop, but also shouldn’t have happened, I suspect the oil pump drive wasn’t put back right after the chain job, but I don’t know these engines.
Any DPF blockage would have brought up a warning, amber before red.
Any DPF blockage would have brought up a warning, amber before red.
Turbo died, bits from the turbo in the oil, things weren't cleaned properly when it was swapped out to save time - debris blocked the oil feed holes, vacuum pump died, the new turbo died from the debris going through it's bearings too, then the bottom end died from the low oil pressure and debris damage.
See it happen time after time, there's a few garages around do a lot of work like this and just hope you sell it before it costs you any more money and then it's not their problem.
Proving it? Probably no chance, you never had anyone else check it.
Also if your car flashes low oil pressure at you, stop immediately, don't try to drive back on limp home mode.
See it happen time after time, there's a few garages around do a lot of work like this and just hope you sell it before it costs you any more money and then it's not their problem.
Proving it? Probably no chance, you never had anyone else check it.
Also if your car flashes low oil pressure at you, stop immediately, don't try to drive back on limp home mode.
Edited by PhillipM on Saturday 11th November 14:22
Rough101 said:
In my mind this all goes back to the drop in oil pressure, that should have been an immediate stop, but also shouldn’t have happened, I suspect the oil pump drive wasn’t put back right after the chain job, but I don’t know these engines.
Any DPF blockage would have brought up a warning, amber before red.
I couldn't really stop where I was. I was on a dual carriageway doing 60mph and only a couple of minutes from home.Any DPF blockage would have brought up a warning, amber before red.
There has been no DPF warnings, ever. I have never had any previous trouble with the DPF.
When it was towed, the RAC guy ran a diagnostic and the DPF came back as
"particle filter system very dirty (exhaust back pressure high)
"Return exhaust cooling, probability AGR cooler bypass defective or cooling efficiency low"
He didn't seem to think that was the cause of the engine problems at the time.
"particle filter system very dirty (exhaust back pressure high)
"Return exhaust cooling, probability AGR cooler bypass defective or cooling efficiency low"
He didn't seem to think that was the cause of the engine problems at the time.
The fact that something (“sheared bolt” - which obviously makes no sense without context/more info from them) caused it to be run with low oil pressure the first time is possibly where the damage here was done.
It is more likely that the first turbo was damaged by running without oil pressure at this point than it was “being dodgy” I would say.
Once an engine has been run without oil pressure you are then in a position where only actual stripping of the motor and inspecting the bearings etc can truly reveal if you “got away with it” or not. Economically that would have added a lot of work to it but personally I would say that you should have been warned of this danger and allowed at that point to make decisions. The garage chose to take the chance that you’d got away with it which based on what you’ve written looks like a foolish choice.
The other points made above about contamination in systems such as lubrication and cooling are also very valid and are exactly the reason you want to fix things before big failures as the implications are far reaching beyond primary systems.
It is more likely that the first turbo was damaged by running without oil pressure at this point than it was “being dodgy” I would say.
Once an engine has been run without oil pressure you are then in a position where only actual stripping of the motor and inspecting the bearings etc can truly reveal if you “got away with it” or not. Economically that would have added a lot of work to it but personally I would say that you should have been warned of this danger and allowed at that point to make decisions. The garage chose to take the chance that you’d got away with it which based on what you’ve written looks like a foolish choice.
The other points made above about contamination in systems such as lubrication and cooling are also very valid and are exactly the reason you want to fix things before big failures as the implications are far reaching beyond primary systems.
Julian Thompson said:
The fact that something (“sheared bolt” - which obviously makes no sense without context/more info from them) caused it to be run with low oil pressure the first time is possibly where the damage here was done.
It is more likely that the first turbo was damaged by running without oil pressure at this point than it was “being dodgy” I would say.
Once an engine has been run without oil pressure you are then in a position where only actual stripping of the motor and inspecting the bearings etc can truly reveal if you “got away with it” or not. Economically that would have added a lot of work to it but personally I would say that you should have been warned of this danger and allowed at that point to make decisions. The garage chose to take the chance that you’d got away with it which based on what you’ve written looks like a foolish choice.
The other points made above about contamination in systems such as lubrication and cooling are also very valid and are exactly the reason you want to fix things before big failures as the implications are far reaching beyond primary systems.
I had no idea about the implications of engine oil pressure low. The warning suddenly came on after the car had been driven for around 10 minutes. It is more likely that the first turbo was damaged by running without oil pressure at this point than it was “being dodgy” I would say.
Once an engine has been run without oil pressure you are then in a position where only actual stripping of the motor and inspecting the bearings etc can truly reveal if you “got away with it” or not. Economically that would have added a lot of work to it but personally I would say that you should have been warned of this danger and allowed at that point to make decisions. The garage chose to take the chance that you’d got away with it which based on what you’ve written looks like a foolish choice.
The other points made above about contamination in systems such as lubrication and cooling are also very valid and are exactly the reason you want to fix things before big failures as the implications are far reaching beyond primary systems.
The garage got the car back to me and said a bolt had sheared off and they had got a "BMW one" and replaced.
I'm not a car person but I was very confused as to how this sudden engine problem also caused the brake pedal to go absolutely solid.
I haven't really had an garage issues before and not sure what my options are.
stevieturbo said:
jolt321 said:
Can anyone offer any advice on this?
I feel a bit stitched up by the garage.
Sounds like a lot stitched up. If the RAC took you there, I'd be asking them why, as well as getting them to remove the car from there, and start seeking legal advice.I feel a bit stitched up by the garage.
Caddyshack said:
Oil light on means damage is happening right then, just a few minutes from home is too late in many cases….if it comes on, stop asap.
They have made no mention of this previous issue and are towing the line of the issue wit the DPF.I actually emailed them the report that the RAC sent me with the documented faults. I think they can potentially use this as an excuse. I wish I hadn't sent it now and wonder what they would have said in that instance about why the engine failed.
Get a professional expert to inspect the car and engine, and provide a formal report.
There may be people who do this independently, but the RAC offers a "Car Inspection Service": https://www.rac.co.uk/buying-a-car/vehicle-inspect...
It's intended for car buyers, but ask them.
John
There may be people who do this independently, but the RAC offers a "Car Inspection Service": https://www.rac.co.uk/buying-a-car/vehicle-inspect...
It's intended for car buyers, but ask them.
John
jolt321 said:
The garage are just saying that it's a seperate issue with the DPF and have never mentioned the oil pressure low issue again. I'm considering my options but Im unsure as to what to do. The car is currently stuck at the garage.
I'm not just talking about now. I'm referring to your timeline, and description of faults, and what they then did. It really doesn't make sense, although obviously there is only one side of the story here, so there could be many chinese whispers there too.stevieturbo said:
jolt321 said:
The garage are just saying that it's a seperate issue with the DPF and have never mentioned the oil pressure low issue again. I'm considering my options but Im unsure as to what to do. The car is currently stuck at the garage.
I'm not just talking about now. I'm referring to your timeline, and description of faults, and what they then did. It really doesn't make sense, although obviously there is only one side of the story here, so there could be many chinese whispers there too.1. Car breaks down.
2.Garage assesses and agrees to do timing chain replacement. During works, garage says turbo needs replacing. Work is agreed and carried out.
3. I get the car back and the engine oil pressure warning comes on after approximately 10 minutes of driving. Driven home in limp mode ( approx 3-4 mins driving) brake pedal goes solid
4. Car towed back to garage. Car returned after fixed. Garage claims sheared bolt to blame.
5. After approximately 10 days of driving, turbo sounds very noisy. Car towed back to garage. Turbo replaced under warranty.
6. Car driven for 2 weeks, engine fails towing caravan.
7. Garage says DPF to blame.
“A dodgy turbocharger” ? 
Hmmm. In what ways can a turbocharger be ”dodgy” that shouldn’t have been picked up prior to fitting?
I’ve fitted 10-15 different turbochargers over the years. Before install I’d be checked the snail, (casing) for any obvious damage, checking the parts numbers to make certain it’s the correct spec turbocharger, checking for any damaged vanes, checking thoroughly for noisy bearings and measuring end-float of the impeller shaft to make sure it was comfortably within spec. I’d also be making sure that any oil feed inlets / outlets were clear and undamaged. All of the above is simple, straightforward stuff that takes about ten minutes.
If I’d been told by a garage that they’d fitted a duff turbocharger, the smell of bulls
t would be almost overpowering.
Frankly, I think that they’re lying to you.
Yes, it is entirely possible that they’ve received a poor quality re-man turbocharger, but I’d also suggest that they’ve been negligent for not making sure that the part was up to the job before fitting it, especially as turbos are a pain in the arse and time consuming to fit.
Hmmm. In what ways can a turbocharger be ”dodgy” that shouldn’t have been picked up prior to fitting?
I’ve fitted 10-15 different turbochargers over the years. Before install I’d be checked the snail, (casing) for any obvious damage, checking the parts numbers to make certain it’s the correct spec turbocharger, checking for any damaged vanes, checking thoroughly for noisy bearings and measuring end-float of the impeller shaft to make sure it was comfortably within spec. I’d also be making sure that any oil feed inlets / outlets were clear and undamaged. All of the above is simple, straightforward stuff that takes about ten minutes.
If I’d been told by a garage that they’d fitted a duff turbocharger, the smell of bulls
t would be almost overpowering.Frankly, I think that they’re lying to you.
Yes, it is entirely possible that they’ve received a poor quality re-man turbocharger, but I’d also suggest that they’ve been negligent for not making sure that the part was up to the job before fitting it, especially as turbos are a pain in the arse and time consuming to fit.
jolt321 said:
Sorry if it wasn't clear. This is a sort of timeline of what happened.
1. Car breaks down.
2.Garage assesses and agrees to do timing chain replacement. During works, garage says turbo needs replacing. Work is agreed and carried out.
3. I get the car back and the engine oil pressure warning comes on after approximately 10 minutes of driving. Driven home in limp mode ( approx 3-4 mins driving) brake pedal goes solid
4. Car towed back to garage. Car returned after fixed. Garage claims sheared bolt to blame.
5. After approximately 10 days of driving, turbo sounds very noisy. Car towed back to garage. Turbo replaced under warranty.
6. Car driven for 2 weeks, engine fails towing caravan.
7. Garage says DPF to blame.
I get that....but none of it makes sense, or is lacking in detail ( not saying it's your fault...just saying how it can go with a lack of solid and accurate technical information ) etc etc1. Car breaks down.
2.Garage assesses and agrees to do timing chain replacement. During works, garage says turbo needs replacing. Work is agreed and carried out.
3. I get the car back and the engine oil pressure warning comes on after approximately 10 minutes of driving. Driven home in limp mode ( approx 3-4 mins driving) brake pedal goes solid
4. Car towed back to garage. Car returned after fixed. Garage claims sheared bolt to blame.
5. After approximately 10 days of driving, turbo sounds very noisy. Car towed back to garage. Turbo replaced under warranty.
6. Car driven for 2 weeks, engine fails towing caravan.
7. Garage says DPF to blame.
Like starting at 1. Does this mean blown up, bits everywhere ? stopped suddenly ? didn't stop, just went very bad ? noises, no noises etc etc ?
Timing chains if they fail, can often end up with catastrophic damage. But all that is mentioned is a new chain, and turbo. Neither alone make a lot of sense.
So what exactly did fail initially ? I'd hope any garage would explain this in detail to you if needed, showing you the failed parts etc
Oil pressure again....without it, catastrophic damage. And if the engine stopped, depending on the mode of brake assistance, whether mechanical or electrical pump, you could lose braking assistance.
And sheared bolt for what exactly ? Presumably a bolt they had apart when doing the chain ? Was it replaced and torqued up correctly if needed the first time around ? Did you even get to see this bolt ?
Sounds like the garage is just feeding you lies IMO.
Firstly, if the chain went, it would be catastrophic engine damage and would require a full engine rebuild, so I’m guessing it was just starting to rattle?
Did they say what was wrong with the original turbo?
If the replacement turbo was actually duff, then they most likely fitted a cheap Chinese turbo or a faulty 2nd hand unit, if so, they completely overcharged for it.
If a sheared bolt had caused an oil blockage then the engine would be toast.
My opinion, they replaced the turbo but not the fittings, this caused the 2nd turbo to fail due to oil starvation.
They then replaced the turbo again and with clear feed/drain fittings, the metal shavings from the failed turbo were then making there way around, causing damage and slowly clogging the oil pickup.
They cleaned the clogging but the damage was already done and the load of the caravan sped up the inevitable bearing failure.
Firstly, if the chain went, it would be catastrophic engine damage and would require a full engine rebuild, so I’m guessing it was just starting to rattle?
Did they say what was wrong with the original turbo?
If the replacement turbo was actually duff, then they most likely fitted a cheap Chinese turbo or a faulty 2nd hand unit, if so, they completely overcharged for it.
If a sheared bolt had caused an oil blockage then the engine would be toast.
My opinion, they replaced the turbo but not the fittings, this caused the 2nd turbo to fail due to oil starvation.
They then replaced the turbo again and with clear feed/drain fittings, the metal shavings from the failed turbo were then making there way around, causing damage and slowly clogging the oil pickup.
They cleaned the clogging but the damage was already done and the load of the caravan sped up the inevitable bearing failure.
stevieturbo said:
jolt321 said:
Sorry if it wasn't clear. This is a sort of timeline of what happened.
1. Car breaks down.
2.Garage assesses and agrees to do timing chain replacement. During works, garage says turbo needs replacing. Work is agreed and carried out.
3. I get the car back and the engine oil pressure warning comes on after approximately 10 minutes of driving. Driven home in limp mode ( approx 3-4 mins driving) brake pedal goes solid
4. Car towed back to garage. Car returned after fixed. Garage claims sheared bolt to blame.
5. After approximately 10 days of driving, turbo sounds very noisy. Car towed back to garage. Turbo replaced under warranty.
6. Car driven for 2 weeks, engine fails towing caravan.
7. Garage says DPF to blame.
I get that....but none of it makes sense, or is lacking in detail ( not saying it's your fault...just saying how it can go with a lack of solid and accurate technical information ) etc etc1. Car breaks down.
2.Garage assesses and agrees to do timing chain replacement. During works, garage says turbo needs replacing. Work is agreed and carried out.
3. I get the car back and the engine oil pressure warning comes on after approximately 10 minutes of driving. Driven home in limp mode ( approx 3-4 mins driving) brake pedal goes solid
4. Car towed back to garage. Car returned after fixed. Garage claims sheared bolt to blame.
5. After approximately 10 days of driving, turbo sounds very noisy. Car towed back to garage. Turbo replaced under warranty.
6. Car driven for 2 weeks, engine fails towing caravan.
7. Garage says DPF to blame.
Like starting at 1. Does this mean blown up, bits everywhere ? stopped suddenly ? didn't stop, just went very bad ? noises, no noises etc etc ?
Timing chains if they fail, can often end up with catastrophic damage. But all that is mentioned is a new chain, and turbo. Neither alone make a lot of sense.
So what exactly did fail initially ? I'd hope any garage would explain this in detail to you if needed, showing you the failed parts etc
Oil pressure again....without it, catastrophic damage. And if the engine stopped, depending on the mode of brake assistance, whether mechanical or electrical pump, you could lose braking assistance.
And sheared bolt for what exactly ? Presumably a bolt they had apart when doing the chain ? Was it replaced and torqued up correctly if needed the first time around ? Did you even get to see this bolt ?
So at this point I knew it was timing chain damage but not the extent of the damage.
The garage that eventually did the job, initially came back with a really low quite of £900-£1300, depending on the damage. I knew this was a good price because the BMW guy who had a look said £2000.
I booked the garage to do the job. They then phoned and said the damage was quite bad and it was going to cost more. They said that 14 of my 16 rockers were damaged. At this point they also said if I was going to keep the car, then it was worth getting a new turbo as mine was on its way out. I agreed with this and they agreed to put a reconditioned one in.
2. The sheared bolt. I was given very little detail of this. I only know what the owner said at the time. He mentioned the brake feed pump and brake servo and said that a bolt sheared and that was the cause of everything. He also said it could have happened when the timing chain went. I never saw the bolt.
Marc p said:
Sounds like the garage is just feeding you lies IMO.
Firstly, if the chain went, it would be catastrophic engine damage and would require a full engine rebuild, so I’m guessing it was just starting to rattle?
Did they say what was wrong with the original turbo?
If the replacement turbo was actually duff, then they most likely fitted a cheap Chinese turbo or a faulty 2nd hand unit, if so, they completely overcharged for it.
If a sheared bolt had caused an oil blockage then the engine would be toast.
My opinion, they replaced the turbo but not the fittings, this caused the 2nd turbo to fail due to oil starvation.
They then replaced the turbo again and with clear feed/drain fittings, the metal shavings from the failed turbo were then making there way around, causing damage and slowly clogging the oil pickup.
They cleaned the clogging but the damage was already done and the load of the caravan sped up the inevitable bearing failure.
The car broke down when I was driving, it just cut out. The RAC said suspected timing chain damage and I had a BMW specialist have a look and he said the timing chain was damaged.Firstly, if the chain went, it would be catastrophic engine damage and would require a full engine rebuild, so I’m guessing it was just starting to rattle?
Did they say what was wrong with the original turbo?
If the replacement turbo was actually duff, then they most likely fitted a cheap Chinese turbo or a faulty 2nd hand unit, if so, they completely overcharged for it.
If a sheared bolt had caused an oil blockage then the engine would be toast.
My opinion, they replaced the turbo but not the fittings, this caused the 2nd turbo to fail due to oil starvation.
They then replaced the turbo again and with clear feed/drain fittings, the metal shavings from the failed turbo were then making there way around, causing damage and slowly clogging the oil pickup.
They cleaned the clogging but the damage was already done and the load of the caravan sped up the inevitable bearing failure.
When the garage did the timing chain, they upped the price when they had a look and said "14 of 16 rockers were damaged"
After they replaced the turbo, I noticed it started getting noisy. At this point it was due and mot. I took it to my usual place who are decent (but don't do timing chains) they immediately picked up on the turbo and said it needed to be towed back to whoever put the turbo on.
They actually said if the turbo goes the the oil could come back into the engine and it would be toast.
They also said at this point that the other garage should have changed the oil feed pipe and they could see that they hadn't.
After having the car towed to the other place, they said that these turbo's don't require a fittings kit and don't come with one, so it's not something they would do.
When I explained this to my usual garage, they said that they should have bought and changed this part anyway and that you could also have problems with any other turbo you put on.
When the garage eventually put on a replacement turbo they said they still hadn't replaced the oil feed pipe but that everything was checked and it was ok.
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