Went to look at a big turbo 1.8T - Gbox & Boost Issues
Discussion
-About the car I might buy
Mk1 Octavia VRS, 2003
Bodywork wise, looks fine, faded paint in some places but no bigy, metal looks straight all round, apart from the folded lip on the sills at the front but they all seem to have that.
Interior is a tale of extremes. Door cards retrimmed in faux leather, new rooflining, rear seats okay.
Front seats are a disaster.
Steering wheel is worn and so is gear knob, apparently its got 210,000 KM, seem more like 270,000 to me.
It's got an integrated sound system upgrade ie speaker pods on the front doors, housing big mids, tweeter and crossovers. Hertz brand. Looks a nice job, trimmed in the same faux leather as the door cards. Full install in the boot, all trimmed in the same faux leather, subs either side with two large amp in the boot floor covered with perpsex. Professional job.
It needs an offside driveshaft, its clicking on full lock
Suspension is crashy. It's wearing what looks like Bilstein B8 or B6 with some yellow springs. Not sure of the brand. I think they are too low hence the crashiness so it will need some decent springs and lifted a little bit, I'm thinking H&R.
Engine bay looks mint, no leaks that I can see from anywhere.
The turbo in question is a K04 from an S3 TFSI as far as I can tell.
Plenty of power, easily spins the tyres in third.
Clutch bites okay but pedal is high, its towards the end of it's life
-The big issues
Driveability is terrible. The car wants to take off with very little throttle from about 2000 rpm onwards. Trying to precision measure the throttle for steady speed gives some turbo surge noises. I think it's trying to make too much boost at too little RPMs. In general it's very hard to drive slowly and very hard to accelerate slowly.
And the gearbox
No crunching but generally imprecise selecting gears.
And then there's second gear. There is no indication that second has engaged and I mean none. Nine times of ten it's in, but you're hoping when you lift the clutch if you know what I mean? Other times it needs a couple of attempts to get it in. Ultra vague engaging second, other gears just vague.
-Negotiation
He says he needs an answer today, I've kept him waiting a week because I wanted him to put a new MOT on the car. It flew through, 10ppm for the HC emissions. Alignment was out, I spoke to the tester he says it's out of spec but just needs a minor adjustment, nothing bent chassis wise. I'll have to trust him
It's in Greece so second hand car prices are stratospheric generally. I've got him down to four and half from five *before* I test drove it.
So what was a avg/good car has turned into a bit of a project. I'm thinking to ask him if he wants to do something with the price (again) because of the second gear issue and driveability.
-The questions I am asking myself are,
Is it definitely a mapping issue or are there some other possibilities?
And the second gear issue. Is this 100% a synchro problem or could the problem be potentially solved without disassembling the gearbox?
Advice/comments welcome (wanted!)
Mk1 Octavia VRS, 2003
Bodywork wise, looks fine, faded paint in some places but no bigy, metal looks straight all round, apart from the folded lip on the sills at the front but they all seem to have that.
Interior is a tale of extremes. Door cards retrimmed in faux leather, new rooflining, rear seats okay.
Front seats are a disaster.
Steering wheel is worn and so is gear knob, apparently its got 210,000 KM, seem more like 270,000 to me.
It's got an integrated sound system upgrade ie speaker pods on the front doors, housing big mids, tweeter and crossovers. Hertz brand. Looks a nice job, trimmed in the same faux leather as the door cards. Full install in the boot, all trimmed in the same faux leather, subs either side with two large amp in the boot floor covered with perpsex. Professional job.
It needs an offside driveshaft, its clicking on full lock
Suspension is crashy. It's wearing what looks like Bilstein B8 or B6 with some yellow springs. Not sure of the brand. I think they are too low hence the crashiness so it will need some decent springs and lifted a little bit, I'm thinking H&R.
Engine bay looks mint, no leaks that I can see from anywhere.
The turbo in question is a K04 from an S3 TFSI as far as I can tell.
Plenty of power, easily spins the tyres in third.
Clutch bites okay but pedal is high, its towards the end of it's life
-The big issues
Driveability is terrible. The car wants to take off with very little throttle from about 2000 rpm onwards. Trying to precision measure the throttle for steady speed gives some turbo surge noises. I think it's trying to make too much boost at too little RPMs. In general it's very hard to drive slowly and very hard to accelerate slowly.
And the gearbox
No crunching but generally imprecise selecting gears.
And then there's second gear. There is no indication that second has engaged and I mean none. Nine times of ten it's in, but you're hoping when you lift the clutch if you know what I mean? Other times it needs a couple of attempts to get it in. Ultra vague engaging second, other gears just vague.
-Negotiation
He says he needs an answer today, I've kept him waiting a week because I wanted him to put a new MOT on the car. It flew through, 10ppm for the HC emissions. Alignment was out, I spoke to the tester he says it's out of spec but just needs a minor adjustment, nothing bent chassis wise. I'll have to trust him
It's in Greece so second hand car prices are stratospheric generally. I've got him down to four and half from five *before* I test drove it.
So what was a avg/good car has turned into a bit of a project. I'm thinking to ask him if he wants to do something with the price (again) because of the second gear issue and driveability.
-The questions I am asking myself are,
Is it definitely a mapping issue or are there some other possibilities?
And the second gear issue. Is this 100% a synchro problem or could the problem be potentially solved without disassembling the gearbox?
Advice/comments welcome (wanted!)
I would assume it needs a new clutch and gearbox. You don't say how much power it's producing but if it's spinning the wheels in third then presumably it's a massive increase. In that case I would also assume that any standard spec clutch and gearbox you fit will be consumables, and the engine will probably have a relatively short life.
Around 300 bhp is the claim. These engines are gearboxes are supposed to be reliable up to this point, hence my disappointment at the apparent state of the gearbox. I wouldn't have expected the power to wear out the synchros faster though, bearings and gear teeth sure. This box is silent from what I can tell.
Are you actually in Greece, to be considering buying a scrapper from Greece ?
Really the gear issues could be anything from a f
ked gearbox, to just a linkage/cable issue.
the driveability issues could be a plethora of problems, or it could be a dodgy map. There are plenty of them about.
Really the gear issues could be anything from a f
ked gearbox, to just a linkage/cable issue.the driveability issues could be a plethora of problems, or it could be a dodgy map. There are plenty of them about.
"plenty of them about" - That's a sad state of affairs. People should be asking for their money back.
Personally, big turbo or not, I expect the power given by the engine to correspond to how much I am pressing the accelerator. But maybe I am asking for too much of an engine with a big turbo swap.
Personally, big turbo or not, I expect the power given by the engine to correspond to how much I am pressing the accelerator. But maybe I am asking for too much of an engine with a big turbo swap.
Gearbox issue could potentially be the 1-2 shift fork issue that some/lots of the 02m gearboxes suffer with, a broken rivet on the shift fork which requires a box strip to fix.
Does the car actually have custom software for the K04-064 swap and all the other supporting bits, injectors etc? They can usually make 330/340 pretty comfortably so if its only 300 its maybe just on some generic software not suited to that turbo?
On the subject of power, you don't mention if the engine has had any work? If it does not at the very least have upgraded rods then it is basically a ticking time bomb with that turbo and what sounds like a very spiky boost delivery.
Does the car actually have custom software for the K04-064 swap and all the other supporting bits, injectors etc? They can usually make 330/340 pretty comfortably so if its only 300 its maybe just on some generic software not suited to that turbo?
On the subject of power, you don't mention if the engine has had any work? If it does not at the very least have upgraded rods then it is basically a ticking time bomb with that turbo and what sounds like a very spiky boost delivery.
Edited by Warby80 on Friday 24th March 17:01
Hello Warby
Engine is stock. Unopened. Seller says the tuner kept it to 300 because of the stock rods. 1.5 bar is the boost its running
I am presuming its got bigger injectors (I don't know what the stock injectors can do). It is much faster than the other 1.8Ts I've been to look at. It has a big intercooler. There is nothing to suggest it has been bodged. It looks like nice work.
About the spikey delivery. Its been a week since I drove it so my opinion has mellowed. You can either cruise or have quite strong acceleration. Its not a blowing-the-tyres-off type of problem by any stretch.
It seems to want to get to wastegate pressure at anything more than 2000rpm with even a bit of throttle and this equates to a decent push.
Between decent push & full bore acceleration the power can be modulated. I can see it being a bit of a pain in town but at higher speeds I expect it wont be so noticeable.
I'm sure my reply is highlighting my complete and utter lack of experience of engines with decent sized turbos.
The fork issue is by far my biggest worry.
Would the rivet cause sloppy shifting?
Or does the rivet just snap when it goes leaving no gears?
Engine is stock. Unopened. Seller says the tuner kept it to 300 because of the stock rods. 1.5 bar is the boost its running
I am presuming its got bigger injectors (I don't know what the stock injectors can do). It is much faster than the other 1.8Ts I've been to look at. It has a big intercooler. There is nothing to suggest it has been bodged. It looks like nice work.
About the spikey delivery. Its been a week since I drove it so my opinion has mellowed. You can either cruise or have quite strong acceleration. Its not a blowing-the-tyres-off type of problem by any stretch.
It seems to want to get to wastegate pressure at anything more than 2000rpm with even a bit of throttle and this equates to a decent push.
Between decent push & full bore acceleration the power can be modulated. I can see it being a bit of a pain in town but at higher speeds I expect it wont be so noticeable.
I'm sure my reply is highlighting my complete and utter lack of experience of engines with decent sized turbos.
The fork issue is by far my biggest worry.
Would the rivet cause sloppy shifting?
Or does the rivet just snap when it goes leaving no gears?
An update on this for those interested. Got the car about a year ago.
All the ride/suspension issues (banging/knocking/reduced steering lock/rubbing) were fixed with a set of H&R springs.
The gear selection issues were made a lot better with an alignment. Still sticky in second from cold, Ill change the gearbox fluid and go from there.
Boost issues. Fixed a load of boost leaks ie hoses with splits and broken hoses on the N249. Much better but still a bit surgy.
Tyres turned out to be gone. PS5s on it now much better. In all ways.
Exhaust was way too loud. Fitted a valved muffler. Fixed the noise in the cabin but still too loud outside. In hindsight should have fitted a bigger rear muffler/silencer instead.
Wheel alignment, new front wishbones & top mounts. Normal handling/stability now.
Painted the naff carbon effect centre console piano black. Hard to exaggerate the effect that had on the interior ambience.
Clutch was completely gone. Put a Sachs VR6 on, no problems with power. And cheap!
Heater was useless. Blend doors.... Covered the holes and all good.
Replaced the AC high pressure hose. The steel braided oil lines for the turbo had eaten through it.
It got new front discs and pads (Ferodo).
Changed the gearknob for a carbon one. Feels a hundred times better.
Headlights had a tint film on them. Removed it. So much better lighting. Hard to understand why someone would compromise nighttime ability so much for aesthetics.
Things left to do
The H&R springs fixed the problems. But suspension moves too much vertically. Roads are really bad/"testing" here. I put Sachs Super Touring on the front with the H&R (Advantage on the rear). Maybe should have put Advantage dampers on the front as well. Also considering coilovers.
Still not sure what to do with the interior. Much better after a good clean but driver's seat and steering wheel need sorting. Might retrim/might fit MK5 seats/MK4 Oct steering wheel.
Some chassis bracing. Front upper, lower, rear.
Rear suspension bushes. Rear is a bit unstable on turn-in at higher speeds.
Just ordered a PCV repair kit.
More investigation into the boost control. Hopefully something straight forward like the N75
Paint. A constant battle. A polish gets it looking great but it's so bloody sunny here it fades again. Will try some 5000 grit and then rubbing compound and then polish & see if that's more permanent.
Door locks. Obviously an issue.... Ordered some replacements but I'm putting off fitting them. Not the end of the world if the car doesn't know the doors are open/closed.
Time some acceleration runs to see if it's actually as fast as it feels.
Nice to haves in future - Probably won't happen.
A diesel gearbox for the longer gearing. It's got the torque for it. Feels frantic with the stock transmission.
An LSD obviously. Traction is a constant issue.
Two-way adjustable coilovers. Would be interesting to see what's possible handling wise.
All-in-all a very fun car. Put a bit more into it than anticipated but most of the things were consumables. Fingers crossed nothing major happens...
(Fuel economy: 30 MPG, 50/50 Town/Motorway. It's the town driving that really kills the economy. I'm sure it could get 40MPG motorway only)
Would I recommend it for some wanting a hot hatch?
Depends on what you want. If you want modern comfort, effortless cross-country pace and something to use everyday, I'd say the MK2 Octavia VRS/MK5 Golf is the one to go for. If on the other hand you want something that gets the heart going before getting into it, you want something that feels small on the road and you want some old skool character with practicality I think it's hard to beat (with this K04-064 turbo or similar. Stock turbo/power is underwhelming) for the price.
All the ride/suspension issues (banging/knocking/reduced steering lock/rubbing) were fixed with a set of H&R springs.
The gear selection issues were made a lot better with an alignment. Still sticky in second from cold, Ill change the gearbox fluid and go from there.
Boost issues. Fixed a load of boost leaks ie hoses with splits and broken hoses on the N249. Much better but still a bit surgy.
Tyres turned out to be gone. PS5s on it now much better. In all ways.
Exhaust was way too loud. Fitted a valved muffler. Fixed the noise in the cabin but still too loud outside. In hindsight should have fitted a bigger rear muffler/silencer instead.
Wheel alignment, new front wishbones & top mounts. Normal handling/stability now.
Painted the naff carbon effect centre console piano black. Hard to exaggerate the effect that had on the interior ambience.
Clutch was completely gone. Put a Sachs VR6 on, no problems with power. And cheap!
Heater was useless. Blend doors.... Covered the holes and all good.
Replaced the AC high pressure hose. The steel braided oil lines for the turbo had eaten through it.
It got new front discs and pads (Ferodo).
Changed the gearknob for a carbon one. Feels a hundred times better.
Headlights had a tint film on them. Removed it. So much better lighting. Hard to understand why someone would compromise nighttime ability so much for aesthetics.
Things left to do
The H&R springs fixed the problems. But suspension moves too much vertically. Roads are really bad/"testing" here. I put Sachs Super Touring on the front with the H&R (Advantage on the rear). Maybe should have put Advantage dampers on the front as well. Also considering coilovers.
Still not sure what to do with the interior. Much better after a good clean but driver's seat and steering wheel need sorting. Might retrim/might fit MK5 seats/MK4 Oct steering wheel.
Some chassis bracing. Front upper, lower, rear.
Rear suspension bushes. Rear is a bit unstable on turn-in at higher speeds.
Just ordered a PCV repair kit.
More investigation into the boost control. Hopefully something straight forward like the N75
Paint. A constant battle. A polish gets it looking great but it's so bloody sunny here it fades again. Will try some 5000 grit and then rubbing compound and then polish & see if that's more permanent.
Door locks. Obviously an issue.... Ordered some replacements but I'm putting off fitting them. Not the end of the world if the car doesn't know the doors are open/closed.
Time some acceleration runs to see if it's actually as fast as it feels.
Nice to haves in future - Probably won't happen.
A diesel gearbox for the longer gearing. It's got the torque for it. Feels frantic with the stock transmission.
An LSD obviously. Traction is a constant issue.
Two-way adjustable coilovers. Would be interesting to see what's possible handling wise.
All-in-all a very fun car. Put a bit more into it than anticipated but most of the things were consumables. Fingers crossed nothing major happens...
(Fuel economy: 30 MPG, 50/50 Town/Motorway. It's the town driving that really kills the economy. I'm sure it could get 40MPG motorway only)
Would I recommend it for some wanting a hot hatch?
Depends on what you want. If you want modern comfort, effortless cross-country pace and something to use everyday, I'd say the MK2 Octavia VRS/MK5 Golf is the one to go for. If on the other hand you want something that gets the heart going before getting into it, you want something that feels small on the road and you want some old skool character with practicality I think it's hard to beat (with this K04-064 turbo or similar. Stock turbo/power is underwhelming) for the price.
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