Why is 4WD less efficient than 2WD?

Why is 4WD less efficient than 2WD?

Author
Discussion

Condi

Original Poster:

17,978 posts

178 months

Tuesday 4th October 2022
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A comment on another thread about Audi's got me thinking earlier - someone (paraphrasing) said that they would avoid the 4WD version of a car because the fuel economy was crap compared with the 2WD version. Same car, same engine, same gearbox, just a different drivetrain. Thinking logically, the force required to move the car is the same, and while there will be a small amount of extra transmission losses from the transfer box and differential, why is there such a difference in economy between 2 otherwise identical cars? Feels like there should be a really simple explanation, but it's passed me by. Officially (under the old test) there is 5MPG difference between an A4 Quattro and standard 2WD A4 (190hp diesel, 2015 reg), although I believe in real world driving the difference is much greater.

TGCOTF-dewey

5,862 posts

62 months

Tuesday 4th October 2022
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It's not a small amount of transmission loss.

+ extra mass to carry.

Super Sonic

7,342 posts

61 months

Tuesday 4th October 2022
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Added weight, and extra drivetrain friction.

Condi

Original Poster:

17,978 posts

178 months

Tuesday 4th October 2022
quotequote all
TGCOTF-dewey said:
It's not a small amount of transmission loss.

+ extra mass to carry.
How much is lost in the transmission? Especially in cars with Quattro, BMW XDrive etc as they only activate the 4WD when the 2 driven wheels start slipping as far as I understand. Extra weight is about 100kg or so, or 1 extra passenger.

TGCOTF-dewey

5,862 posts

62 months

Tuesday 4th October 2022
quotequote all
The designs differ but a lot disconnect the rears via a centre diff.

That means the rear diff and drive shafts are all rotating.

+ with age they all rotate with more friction as bearing get crusty.

IJWS15

1,939 posts

92 months

Tuesday 4th October 2022
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Even with freewheel hubs (even more weight) the drive shafts will still rotate slowly and absorb some power.

dhutch

15,296 posts

204 months

Tuesday 4th October 2022
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Plus added parts to maintain and service.

Lincsls1

3,484 posts

147 months

Tuesday 4th October 2022
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I've owned 3 4WD saloon cars, the rest (many) have been either RWD or FWD.
Now don't get me wrong, I have an appreciation for a good AWD system, but the truth is I've never really needed it. My 2WD cars have never left me stranded due to lack of grip and I've found a good pair of winter tyres on a FWD car will perform as good in snow as a 4WD car with summer tyres.
With the extra weight and drive train loss meaning higher fuel consumption and reduced power to the road I see no real benefits for me. I am of course just talking about normal cars here, not (proper) off road vehicles which are used accordingly.

thebraketester

14,713 posts

145 months

Tuesday 4th October 2022
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Condi said:
TGCOTF-dewey said:
It's not a small amount of transmission loss.

+ extra mass to carry.
How much is lost in the transmission? Especially in cars with Quattro, BMW XDrive etc as they only activate the 4WD when the 2 driven wheels start slipping as far as I understand. Extra weight is about 100kg or so, or 1 extra passenger.
Quattro is permenant 4wd. The "Quattro" you are referring to is actually haldex which is non permenant 4wd

Speed addicted

5,712 posts

234 months

Tuesday 4th October 2022
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Condi said:
How much is lost in the transmission? Especially in cars with Quattro, BMW XDrive etc as they only activate the 4WD when the 2 driven wheels start slipping as far as I understand. Extra weight is about 100kg or so, or 1 extra passenger.
It’s not just when they slip, x-drive are full time 4x4 that can move power away from the front wheels if it’s not required.

The smaller Audis use the system that only supplies 4x4 when the front wheels slip but the bigger ones are on all the time, again moving power forwards when rear drive isn’t required.

Essentially you’re dragging all the 4x4 gubbins about all the time plus frictional losses.

I had a bmw 420d x-drive that got about 42mpg in my use, other people doing similar journeys seemed to get 50+ without really trying in non x-drive cars.

Lincsls1

3,484 posts

147 months

Tuesday 4th October 2022
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Quite simply, I'd say it just isn't possible for a 4WD car to be as efficient as its 2WD counterpart. It just can't be due to the extra mechanical and/or electrical equipment onboard.

Limpet

6,520 posts

168 months

Tuesday 4th October 2022
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Additional driveshafts (plus prop if the base car is FWD), plus the extra diff(s) add weight. And even if the AWD is part time it often means shafts rotating with the wheels which adds friction.

GreenV8S

30,487 posts

291 months

Tuesday 4th October 2022
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If you want to appreciate the drag in the transmission, just jack a wheel up and feel how much resistance there is when you try to turn it. It isn't a huge amount, but every inch of movement has to overcome that drag. 4wd has far more bearings and gears moving so there is far more transmission drag.

PaulKemp

979 posts

152 months

Wednesday 5th October 2022
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Automatic gearbox’s have more transmission losses than manual and 4c4 more that 2wd
The more the power the more the losses.
30% or more

glennjamin

377 posts

70 months

Wednesday 5th October 2022
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It's all down to weight and drag on transmission and drivetrain . Try pushing a Land Rover Defender !

vikingaero

11,240 posts

176 months

Wednesday 5th October 2022
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Condi said:
TGCOTF-dewey said:
It's not a small amount of transmission loss.

+ extra mass to carry.
How much is lost in the transmission? Especially in cars with Quattro, BMW XDrive etc as they only activate the 4WD when the 2 driven wheels start slipping as far as I understand. Extra weight is about 100kg or so, or 1 extra passenger.
I think you need to understand the difference between 4WD and AWD. 4WD can have Haldex clutches and where there is slip, drive goes to the other wheels. AWD, like the quattro and Subaru systems has drive to all wheels all the time in varying proportions.

The line gets blurred with newer and older version of various AWD systems. Some manufacturers have given their 4WD/AWD system more rear bias to mimic a RWD car (but with 4WD/AWD).

Pica-Pica

14,484 posts

91 months

Wednesday 5th October 2022
quotequote all
Lincsls1 said:
Quite simply, I'd say it just isn't possible for a 4WD car to be as efficient as its 2WD counterpart. It just can't be due to the extra mechanical and/or electrical equipment onboard.
Not as efficient, but perhaps more effective.

stevieturbo

17,535 posts

254 months

Wednesday 5th October 2022
quotequote all
Condi said:
A comment on another thread about Audi's got me thinking earlier - someone (paraphrasing) said that they would avoid the 4WD version of a car because the fuel economy was crap compared with the 2WD version. Same car, same engine, same gearbox, just a different drivetrain. Thinking logically, the force required to move the car is the same, and while there will be a small amount of extra transmission losses from the transfer box and differential, why is there such a difference in economy between 2 otherwise identical cars? Feels like there should be a really simple explanation, but it's passed me by. Officially (under the old test) there is 5MPG difference between an A4 Quattro and standard 2WD A4 (190hp diesel, 2015 reg), although I believe in real world driving the difference is much greater.
Firstly, most manufacturer mpg results are lies. And in reality on the road, it makes very little difference to economy.

IJWS15

1,939 posts

92 months

Thursday 6th October 2022
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Even with freewheel hubs (even more weight) the drive shafts will still rotate slowly and absorb some power.

Polly Grigora

11,209 posts

116 months

Thursday 6th October 2022
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Friction comes to mind first